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Relaxation of restrictions Part II

Tokyo

Continuation of the "Relaxation of restrictions" from here.

Please note that all mod warnings and threadbans carry through from the previous thread.

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lord quackinton

I don’t get The snitching side of things
The country is full of welfare fraud and a thriving black market and no one says peep

Someone goes for a walk in the local woods or puck a ball around or pop into the back door of a pub and the rats are out informing the filth

Compete joke

road_high

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

So you are saying the Gardaí are busybodies for enforcing the laws of the land. What other laws do you think they should not be enforcing? Maybe drink driving, driving without insurance? Do tell us.

When the specific “law” is a total arse then yes I think they are.
Drink driving and insurance are separate areas of enforcement which I support. Not everything has to be all encompassing

Strumms

road_high wrote: »

Indeed. I’ve quite a different view of Irish society coming out of this. It’s quite chilling how easily so many follow the mob group think, devoid of any critical faculties whatsoever. Is it our rote-learning based education that installs such a tunnel visioned one dimensional approach to problem solving? The derision and sneering at anyone with a slightly different view- pathetic given our own national record with regards to nursing homes is nothing to crow about...
As for the Gardai- an institution I once very much admired and was proud of as our police force. Tarnished as pathetic nit pickers in my eyes. Surely there’s someone sane in the whole organisation somewhere with a different view to the 1984 approach?
I can assure all I’m no Gemma Doherty type, I despise all cracked pot conspiracy theorists with equal measure but there’s no way in a democratic society the kind of measures going on for the past 6 weeks are in any sustainable beyond the current without a lot deeper scrutiny than is currently the case

Is it mob group think or people just nervous about neighbors and citizens not adhering to the social distancing requirements ? The Gardai are not nit picking, they are just tasked with enforcing the law, for the wellbeing of the state and its citizens. Many of them I’m sure might not agree with every single aspect of what they are being tasked with but that goes for the same for anyone in all jobs.

JoeA3

Strumms wrote: »

People going for a jog are doing zero harm, same with people walking, the government and health people are advocating actually that for your health and wellbeing you DO.

This government site is very good at outlining what people can and should do. Stuff with people in mind who CAN go out and also for cocooners at home..

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/5a4293-staying-active-during-covid-19/#outdoor-activity

Yeah I knew all that already. Anyone with half a mind of their own doesn’t need Simon twitter Harris or Tony to tell them it’s ok to go for a walk. That wasn’t the point of my post.

road_high

lord quackinton wrote: »

I don’t get The snitching side of things
The country is full of welfare fraud and a thriving black market and no one says peep

Someone goes for a walk in the local woods or puck a ball around or pop into the back door of a pub and the rats are out informing the filth

Compete joke

Yes indeed. Garda Wicklow page on Facebook are particularly zealous in this regard- often posting pics and long rants about some poor Cnut out for a walk on his own in a wood for example and they were there to nab him.
George’s Orwell 1984 is hardly a patch on some of the current national psyche and policing

Pretzill

lord quackinton wrote: »

I don’t get The snitching side of things
The country is full of welfare fraud and a thriving black market and no one says peep

Someone goes for a walk in the local woods or puck a ball around or pop into the back door of a pub and the rats are out informing the filth

Compete joke

I don't see any of this snitching, squinting windows stuff at all, what I do see mainly through social media is a fear that if people become complacent this disease will too.

Cork Boy 53

road_high wrote: »

As for the Gardai- an institution I once very much admired and was proud of as our police force. Tarnished as pathetic nit pickers in my eyes. Surely there’s someone sane in the whole organisation somewhere with a different view to the 1984 approach?
I can assure all I’m no Gemma Doherty type, I despise all cracked pot conspiracy theorists with equal measure but there’s no way in a democratic society the kind of measures going on for the past 6 weeks are in any sustainable beyond the current without a lot deeper scrutiny than is currently the case

Actually after a good start the Gardai are of late not enforcing the new laws anywhere near as strictly as they should be. To state they are adopting a 1984 approach is complete and utter nonsense and smacks of someone who has issues with paranoia.

JoeA3

lord quackinton wrote: »

I don’t get The snitching side of things
The country is full of welfare fraud and a thriving black market and no one says peep

Someone goes for a walk in the local woods or puck a ball around or pop into the back door of a pub and the rats are out informing the filth

Compete joke

It’s because it’s the cool thing to do now. Someone on Facebook or twitter told them to do it and you’ll be guaranteed a bunch of likes. Much easier to do that and a whole lot less threatening than reporting welfare frauds, petty crime, caravan dwellers abusing horses, etc

fin12

Was anyone else shocked when they announced the new number of cases today? I was listening to the news on the radio and when the figure was announced I was like what? Like I thought I heard wrong so I went straight onto the Irish examiner to confirm it.

jimmycrackcorm

lord quackinton wrote: »

That’s what the lockdown Nazis don’t get
When the world economy takes a nose dive it is the poorest countries and the poorest people that take the hit

Currently the Irish government is borrowing billions to pay people out of work due to this lockdown
The really poor people in the third world are left even worse off because the developed world is full of cowards who would rather save themselves then help the real dirt poor non white people

For example Penney’s are closed and they give thousands of jobs to Asia , that’s stopped now and those Asian workers have no income and are now not even able to feed their children
Can the lockdown Nazis imagine a world where their is no welfare and your baby cries because of hunger
A lot of stupid and Selfish people on here who Back the lockdown who refuse to think of others

It's strange referring to lockdown Nazis. The Nazis were actively killing off the wall and infirm that they judged to be off no value to society.

Whereas the lockdown is precisely designed to do the opposite. Spreading the disease is effectively a killing mechanism.

Asian countries are locking down even if Penny's wanted to keep them manufacturing for us because they too see it as the lesser evil.

Strumms

fin12 wrote: »

Was anyone else shocked when they announced the new number of cases today? I was listening to the news on the radio and when the figure was announced I was like what? Like I thought I heard wrong so I went straight onto the Irish examiner to confirm it.

28 deaths and 936 ‘additional’ cases.... the additional is shocking, really is.

road_high

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Actually after a good start the Gardai are of late not enforcing the new laws anywhere near as strictly as they should be. To state they are adopting a 1984 approach is complete and utter nonsense and smacks of someone who has issues with paranoia.

The irony of being derided as paranoid right here by hard lockdown advocates. Your whole approach is pretty much led by mass paranoia !
The whole episode is 1984esque from top to bottom- anyone that doesn’t agree must be dismissed as mentally ill. Ceacescu used do similar in old Romania, locking up anyone that disagreed with his “grand ideas of socialism” in lunatic asylums

Jurgen Klopp

JoeA3 wrote: »

I’m sure this has been raised as a concern here already by others but...

Is anyone else concerned that Tony Holohan, a man most of us knew little to nothing about up to 6 weeks ago, is really the guy in charge of our fate now?

I listened to him this evening in dismay. Talk about an utterly confused message. Community spread is virtually zero. For the past 2 weeks. So despite all the curtain twitchers and fist thumping on this thread from the bunker dwellers, it seems the lads going out for a jog really aren’t doing any harm.

The new case numbers appear high at a glance, primarily due to the situation in the nursing homes - and Tony himself is responsible for the mismanagement of that fiasco.

So now we have Tony saying “no, I would not relax restrictions if today was May 5th”. This is apparently the same guy who survived the cervical cancer fiasco, and here we are - Leo is essentially letting him dictate our lives for the next god knows how long.

Is it any fcuking wonder people are geting disenfranchised with the whole thing.

The big problem is they are listening to medical experts and that only.

If you ask them how do we contain, flatten this etc then they only look it at it through that lens

For instance they'll say lockdown and do this that and the other but don't take into account or even realize I'd say money for welfare or hospitals drops to nothing after X amount of lockdown or when their proposed series of lockdowns I've heard mentioned

So I'd hope they are also bringing in financial and indeed maybe social experts as well as mental health experts behind the scenes at least

To be honest I'm very worried at this stage of all the work so far being completely and utterly bolloxed if we get financially bolloxed enough that we can't even pay dole or provided hospitals with only 10% of needed supplies

JoeA3

fin12 wrote: »

Was anyone else shocked when they announced the new number of cases today? I was listening to the news on the radio and when the figure was announced I was like what? Like I thought I heard wrong so I went straight onto the Irish examiner to confirm it.

It’s been discussed around the houses. Vast majority of the numbers are concentrated in the nursing homes. They have it bad.

Meanwhile the larger population is largely unaffected and in this quasi lockdown. Go figure.

Strumms

We shall only be financially fûcked if we can’t get the handle on people becoming infected. Paralysis on the health and finances of the state, we’d be fûcked.

We will get a handle on it if people manage the behavior of both themselves and those around them.

Jurgen Klopp

fin12 wrote: »

Was anyone else shocked when they announced the new number of cases today? I was listening to the news on the radio and when the figure was announced I was like what? Like I thought I heard wrong so I went straight onto the Irish examiner to confirm it.

Not a bit. We've seen now from various studies and especially New York who's said about 21% of the city population has antibodies that shows exactly what others were saying that it's far more widespread than initially thought

Circa 50% of our deaths have been in care homes, can you imagine given its asymptomatic nature how many case are going to there? The case numbers are going to balloon but it's not armageddon. Id say you might benefit from the math and what it means to Ireland thread, it's an eye opener to how spread it is. It's very possible Ireland's true cases could be multiplied by 10 at minimum going off what Italy, Spain, Germany , Iceland and now the US are seeing

SusieBlue

Maybe I’m misunderstanding but I was fully in support of the lockdown because I was under the impression that the purpose of it was to slow the spread of the virus.
It was to give our health service time to get the house in order, organise PPE, implement new procedures and prepare additional beds.
It was to ensure our health system wasn’t overwhelmed like other countries.
I thought it was done to educate the public on the severity of the situation, to give us all time to adapt to social distancing, increased hand washing & cough etiquette and what will be a new way of life.

The lockdown was never supposed to make the virus go away. We have achieved what we set out to do, as far as I can see?
Whether we continue the lockdown till September, or Christmas, or next summer, the virus will still be here and it will still be infecting & killing people.
Staying indefinitely in lockdown won’t get rid of it. The vaccine might come in a few months or it could be a few years yet, for all we know.

We have to adapt to this new way of life. It isn’t realistic to essentially pause the world for 18 months until a cure is found.

So with that in mind I would have thought the most prudent course of action would be to slowly reopen society, with social distancing measures in place & doing as much as possible to minimise the spread.
The elderly & those with underlying conditions should continue to cocoon if they wish, with the support of the government.

Whether we stay in lockdown till the 5th or until 2021 the end result is the same: the virus is here to stay and the sooner we adapt to this new way of life, the better for everyone.

I have an elderly neighbour, a widower in his 80’s whose only living family is his niece. We and my other neighbours have been doing our best for him in the current circumstances.
He never exactly had a hectic social life but he enjoyed the simple pleasures in life.... Sitting on the bench in the park with his dog reading the paper, chatting to the ladies in the post office collecting his pension, meeting his friends for a half pint in the pub, and going to his nieces for dinner on a Sunday.
He asked me the other day when I was dropping off his shopping if it was possible to die of loneliness and my heart broke for him.
He’s absolutely depressed off his head, he is so upset & emotional, and says he wished he had died at the start of all this & he would have died a happy man.
I have no doubt that if restrictions are lifted he’ll be out & about again regardless of the consequences to his health and I can’t blame him for that.
He is absolutely miserable, as I’m sure many others are.

It’s no way to live & it’s not sustainable long term.
Not for him, not for any of us.
I am not heartless and I don’t want people to die, but it’s getting to the point where damage to the economy & our mental health is going to do far far more damage than covid-19 will.

I would rather restrictions are gradually lifted with clear rules and guidelines than having people end up rebelling and flouting them completely, which is what will inevitably happen unless we gradually start opening up society.

Super-Rush

Just wanna go fishing again.

Tokyo

gozunda wrote: »

Its evident you really understand nothing. Cloud cuckoo land really must be a lovely place to be

There's 'belligerent ****' and 'nutters' all right. They're not who you think ...

Mod: Wind it in. You've been around long enough to know where the line is and when you've crossed it.

Polar101

I did military service for a year when I was younger. That was basically a lockdown with 160 other idiots while getting told what to do - definitely couldn't go 2km from the barracks even if I had "essential" business. Weekly or fortnightly they'd let us go home for a bit. The food was ****e and some asshole would shout everyone awake at 6am.

Now I've been "locked" at home for a month or so, don't have those other idiots living in the same room and I can eat/drink whatever I want. This could be worse. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the 2km limit, though - some variety to daily walks would be lovely.

Diarmuid

Interesting bit in the BBC about the toll the lockdown in Italy is taking on mental health

The language on this thread has gone seriously downhill. Nazis, lockdown merchants etc doesn't add to the discussion.

I think we are getting to the point where the lack of leadership and clear path is becoming very apparent. Very low community spread and the virus heavily contained to known and well controlled locations (albeit running amok in those areas), this should make the next steps very straightforward. However instead we are being led down the same path of "keep the restrictions with no end in sight" and no plan to backing out of this.

I saw a good analogy of the situation. Each country has climbed a ladder, some have gone higher than others. All now need to plan to come back down that ladder, *one step at a time*. But there is no discussion of this.

Why isn't there clear goals and plans in place and all being communicated? We have metrics to track this spread so use them. "if the community spread is below x for y days then we enact this plan" "if it's below z for w days then we enact this plan" None of this. All just, great job, keep it up indefinitely. Very frustrating but not surprising.

pjohnson

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Actually after a good start the Gardai are of late not enforcing the new laws anywhere near as strictly as they should be. To state they are adopting a 1984 approach is complete and utter nonsense and smacks of someone who has issues with paranoia.

When they are also terrified of the idea of being tracked by the government you are right at Gemma and John levels of alternate reality.

The general disregard for law, law enforcement, and calling those who follow the law Nazi's hints at something else. I do hear that some dealers are starting to struggle.

lord quackinton

pjohnson wrote: »

When they are also terrified of the idea of being tracked by the government you are right at Gemma and John levels of alternate reality.

The general disregard for law, law enforcement, and calling those who follow the law Nazi's hints at something else. I do hear that some dealers are starting to struggle.

Nazis were socialists obsessed with worshipping the state who used propaganda and threats of violence to get their way
Nazis also creates “threats” to the state and its society to remind people why they were needed
Our current Nazis walking among us now are lockdowners who also you can be sure support socialism and mass immigration and climate change
The poor idiots have been brainwashed by the social media giants and a liberal ruling class
I feel sorry for them as they walk in the footsteps of some nasty Germans

drunkmonkey

I read an article in the Irish Times this morning that now seems to have disappeared, it was calling out problems in the contact tracing, wrong phone numbers so they couldn't even contact the person to tell them they had it while these people are roaming free. Basically if they called the number 5 times and no response there was nothing more they could do, also some tests had no phone numbers.
It's concerning this is happening at such a basic level, also concerning the article seems to be pulled as it was one of the top storys. Can't see restrictions being lifted if we can't get the simple things correctly in place.

Pitch n Putt

Diarmuid wrote: »

Interesting bit in the BBC about the toll the lockdown in Italy is taking on mental health

The language on this thread has gone seriously downhill. Nazis, lockdown merchants etc doesn't add to the discussion.

I think we are getting to the point where the lack of leadership and clear path is becoming very apparent. Very low community spread and the virus heavily contained to known and well controlled locations (albeit running amok in those areas), this should make the next steps very straightforward. However instead we are being led down the same path of "keep the restrictions with no end in sight" and no plan to backing out of this.

I saw a good analogy of the situation. Each country has climbed a ladder, some have gone higher than others. All now need to plan to come back down that ladder, *one step at a time*. But there is no discussion of this.

Why isn't there clear goals and plans in place and all being communicated? We have metrics to track this spread so use them. "if the community spread is below x for y days then we enact this plan" "if it's below z for w days then we enact this plan" None of this. All just, great job, keep it up indefinitely. Very frustrating but not surprising.

Yes worryingly true.

The country and the handling of this virus is going to end up like our health services before this arrived.

Mismanaged but as you say not surprising. This is Ireland,Shur it’ll be grand

The plan is there is no plan

poppers

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I read an article in the Irish Times this morning that now seems to have disappeared, it was calling out problems in the contact tracing, wrong phone numbers so they couldn't even contact the person to tell them they had it while these people are roaming free. Basically if they called the number 5 times and no response there was nothing more they could do, also some tests had no phone numbers.
It's concerning this is happening at such a basic level, also concerning the article seems to be pulled as it was one of the top storys. Can't see restrictions being lifted if we can't get the simple things correctly in place.

hardly the contact tracing teams fault if they are given the wrong number for "johhny Murphy"

drunkmonkey

poppers wrote: »

hardly the contact tracing teams fault if they are given the wrong number for "johhny Murphy"

They don't have a number for Jonny that's the problem, it's not their fault, it's not blaming the contract tracing staff, it gave an example of someone that had it yet didn't know they had. Seems to be falling down at the testing part.
Simple solution would be to text the person getting tested with a code and get them to confirm the code before submitting the test also lock them them the feck up until they have a result.
It's made a balls of the whole thing if that report is correct.

donaghs

Polar101 wrote: »

I did military service for a year when I was younger. That was basically a lockdown with 160 other idiots while getting told what to do - definitely couldn't go 2km from the barracks even if I had "essential" business. Weekly or fortnightly they'd let us go home for a bit. The food was ****e and some asshole would shout everyone awake at 6am.

Now I've been "locked" at home for a month or so, don't have those other idiots living in the same room and I can eat/drink whatever I want. This could be worse. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the 2km limit, though - some variety to daily walks would be lovely.

Not having jobs to go back to, not having funding for public services. Inevitable cuts and tax rises. You don't think theres more suffering (and deaths from other causes) coming?

seamus

Diarmuid wrote: »

Why isn't there clear goals and plans in place and all being communicated? We have metrics to track this spread so use them. "if the community spread is below x for y days then we enact this plan" "if it's below z for w days then we enact this plan" None of this. All just, great job, keep it up indefinitely. Very frustrating but not surprising.

From my perspective they have been halfway there on that.

They've been clearly communicating where we need to be in terms of the data and what the lockdown is trying to achieve.

As for clear plans and milestones, I have a lot sympathies for the government and NPHET on this.

I want a clear roadmap. But I know that I'll stick to it.

I know that others won't; they will skip ahead, go on a solo run. As soon as the conditions for "phase 2" appear to be met, they will change their behaviour and tell everyone on social media to do the same, even if the NPHET are days away from declaring it.

I would hope that clear plans do exist, but I understand why they haven't been published.

Even in the absence of a full roadmap, the drip-feed of information is also necessary. If they announced on Wednesday, that the lockdown would be over and restrictions lifted from the following Monday, then people won't wait. The lockdown will in essence be over as soon as the speech is over - "what difference does a few days make".

I think this is going to be an issue for next weekend.

People will expect details on the next steps, by Friday evening. But as soon as we know that restrictions are being lifted, there will be a rush of people heading off for the bank holiday weekend, desperate for a change of scenery, and comfortable that they've done what was asked. Sure what's the difference between Saturday and Monday.

Such a rush is not ideal.
They may also schedule an address from the Taoiseach for Sunday evening, to assauge the desire for a plan without causing a holiday rush, but the details will leak before then and people will go anyway.

One might optimistically hope that the NPHET advised the Taoiseach to "add a few days buffer to the end of the lockdown, because it will start to unravel before the official end date".

Pitch n Putt

poppers wrote: »

hardly the contact tracing teams fault if they are given the wrong number for "johhny Murphy"

Not directly their fault but a system fault. What’s the point of everything shutting down and people (locked down) if we can’t get the basics right.

There should be three points of contact for each person very easily

Phone number, Address , And referring GP details in most cases.

If it’s true we only taking phone numbers and giving up after 5 failed attempts to contact the whole thing is a farce.