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Sweden avoiding lockdown

frillyleaf

Does Sweden have the right approach to this and how is their healthcare system being able to manage Covid19 cases?

What are the differences between Sweden and Ireland and why can’t we continue similar to how Sweden is managing Covid19?

I’m not suggesting either is right or wrong. I would just like to know how Sweden can continue as normal and other countries can’t. Thanks ðŸ˜Š

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Rvsmmnps

We are pretty much over it. Things feeling normal again. We never did full lockdown either (Norway)
Not very much sensational news outlets here either

KiKi III

kowloon wrote: »

I seem to remember that being a thing in New York before it was here.

New York isn’t a country.

2u2me

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Are you aware that for the 3 weeks preceding the lockdown, chinese citizens were allowed to go about their business as usual. This was despite authorities knowing that the virus was infecting people.

There are 11 million people in Wuhan. Very few cases have been recorded in Beijing despite there being no restrictions on travel during that 3 week period. Yet the virus has been found in the Amazon.

This is a country that has hundreds of thousands of people in re-education camps. I prefer to believe what I'm seeing in places like Spain, Italy, the UK and New York.

80000 cases is a complete fairytale. Who knows what the real tally is there.

Sure they might have gone about their business as normal for a few weeks while they were verifying the severity of the virus or attempting to cover up.

While you take note of this important factor you make no mention of how long our western governments took , how long was that? If I told you 2 months would this make any difference in how you see things?

Numbers don't matter so much, watch the trend lines, and see what restrictions countries are making. It all adds up I'm afraid if you have any other evidence fire away.

Obviously the 80,000 figure is 'wrong' it does not reflect the total amount of cases in China. Either do any of the numbers on the Johnshopkins site, as no country is able to do proper testing.
It does not mean it is a lie, which is a statement made with intent to deceive.

You can also look at the number of deceased to gauge how many infected there were.

dubrov

normanoffside wrote: »

Finland is not culturally nor geographically the same as sweden at all.
Finland is not even Scandinavian.

Are you seriously trying to argue Ireland is culturally and geographically more similar to Sweden than Finland is?

Mongfinder General

2u2me wrote: »

Are you aware that they enforced a draconian lockdown for a duration of 11 weeks, much earlier than the rest of the world, that just ended in the last few days? Do you think it had any effect on the spread of the virus?

Are you aware that for the 3 weeks preceding the lockdown, chinese citizens were allowed to go about their business as usual. This was despite authorities knowing that the virus was infecting people.

There are 11 million people in Wuhan. Very few cases have been recorded in Beijing despite there being no restrictions on travel during that 3 week period. Yet the virus has been found in the Amazon.

This is a country that has hundreds of thousands of people in re-education camps. I prefer to believe what I'm seeing in places like Spain, Italy, the UK and New York.

80000 cases is a complete fairytale. Who knows what the real tally is there.

[Deleted User]

normanoffside wrote: »

Finland is not culturally nor geographically the same as sweden at all.
Finland is not even Scandinavian.

Finland was ruled by Sweden for 700 years. The geography is exactly the same. If you were put standing in the middle of the countryside on either country, they would look the same.

They are culturally very similar.
The Swedes are more sociable, but very similar

And I know Finland is not Scandinavian, thanks. It's Nordic.

And if you want to compare Sweden with any country, it shouldnt be Ireland. Finland is a much better country to compare with.

normanoffside

bubblypop wrote: »

If you really want to compare Sweden it shouldn't be with Ireland.

Compare with Finland, who are culturally & geographically the same! Although Sweden's population is approx 10 million, and Finland's is only 5.5million.

Finland brought in restrictions in early March, government buildings closed, schools closed, no gatherings of large amounts of people....
Finland have 49 deaths
Sweden have 887 , or thereabouts

Finland is not culturally nor geographically the same as sweden at all.
Finland is not even Scandinavian.

Greentopia

Bit cynical wrote: »

Although they don't have the sever restrictions of other countries it does look like their death rate per million due to the virus is lower than a fair number of other countries, including France, Belgium etc. This may be due to their being a fairly conformist country that obeys guidelines. Although they don't have the same level of legal restrictions, the cities are generally quieter.

Housing may also play a part. It is much more common in Sweden to live in your own small apartment before forming a family than, say, Ireland where flat and house sharing or living in the parental home is common. Room sharing with strangers is common in the inner cities in Ireland.

It is still too early to say which country has the right approach. When this is over, things like the economy will have to be factored in. My worry in Ireland is that we may succeed in suppressing the virus but at some point, restrictions will have to be lifted in order to get some sort of economy that can be taxed to pay for services including medical services, pensions and so on.

I don't think the Swedish model is right for every country but it may prove to be the right model for Sweden when this is all over.

Precisely. This is the most accurate and astute comment I've seen on the thread so far.
As someone who has spent eight years of my life there returning quite regularly to visit and who still keeps up with Swedish news, I would say that's all spot on. Your last point in particular is one I've been saying also. The Swedish model and way of tackling this crisis may not work in any other country except Sweden.

Those who judge it negatively by the standards of their own country whether it's Ireland or wherever, don't have the full picture to be able to assess why Sweden has taken the path it has on the virus and are forming opinions without sufficient relevant knowledge or information of the country.

It does look alarming from the outside and of course there's a risk they may have got it terribly wrong (the situation in the old peoples care homes is very worrying), but somehow I think when the fatalities are counted when this is over there won't be many more per capita than their Nordic neighbours.

metricspaces

Greentopia wrote: »

They're not continuing as normal. This is a big misconception.

Darn. More facts. You are ruining the evening for our good old conspiracy theorists and drama queens.

Greentopia

frillyleaf wrote: »

Does Sweden have the right approach to this and how is their healthcare system being able to manage Covid19 cases?

As I stated in another thread, I was sceptical at the beginning but I do understand now why they have chosen the path they have having listened to their state epidemiologist and Prime Minister explain it.

I don't know if it's the right approach, only time will tell, but I understand their logic and rationale and believe it is possibly the correct one for their country, given their rather unique social, political and cultural background.

Their healthcare system is universal, well funded at 11% of GDP, decentralised -mostly paid for by municipal, regional and to a lesser extent central government and one of the best in the world.

There are according to this source 433 ICU beds but they've ramped up the numbers of ICU beds in response to the crisis.

It would seem from what I'm reading that the pressures on their system are mainly in the Stockholm region, but they are managing so far and have set up a field hospital for overflow patients in the South of Stockholm. 337 people are in intensive care there. There was discussion about beds being moved around from one region to where they're needed if it came to it also, but I don't think they've needed to yet and the State Epidemiologist has said they're flattening the curve in Stockholm at least.

They have challenges with not having enough PPE gear, like many other countries and other cities like Malmo will be next to see a surge in cases so we shall see what happens.
The PM explained yesterday the shortage in PPE gear is because after the cold war successive governments reduced funding for emergency readiness systems and equipment.

Folkhälsomyndigheten (Swedish public health authority) COVID-19 site:https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa

frillyleaf wrote: »

What are the differences between Sweden and Ireland and why can’t we continue similar to how Sweden is managing Covid19?

I’m not suggesting either is right or wrong. I would just like to know how Sweden can continue as normal and other countries can’t. Thanks ��

They're not continuing as normal. This is a big misconception. Yes primary schools and childcare facilities are still open but the government said this was so that healthcare workers in particular could still work. There is really no such thing as informal childcare arrangements with grandparents looking after grandchildren in Sweden as the childcare system guarantees affordable childcare for all and there are very few stay at home parents. I think the figure I read was over 90% of women work outside the home.
And even if they wanted to many grandparents don't live in the same area or region even as their grandchildren. Telling parents to stay at home and look after their children would collapse the healthcare system. Or at least that was what their PM said.

Anyone who can is working from home same as here. Almost all domestic flights have been cancelled.

Restaurants and cafes are open but only for outdoor service and the tables must be set at the correct distance apart. They're now talking about closing those businesses which do not comply with this rule.

They have brought in social distancing rules. They have stay home advice to the over 70s and families and told not to visit old peoples homes-hot spots for the virus in Sweden and where the deaths are mostly centred on it seems and an area that could still cause the death rate to increase hugely.

Hand hygiene advice is the same as here as is distancing in supermarkets.
People are not travelling or moving around as normal. Journeys outside Stockholm are down between 70 and 90% this Easter.

There are several reasons the Swedish way wouldn't work here IMO. Firstly we don't have the same healthcare resources to deal with a large spike in numbers as they do. Secondly social distancing is the norm there, no joke, so they can sustain that for long periods where we may find that more challenging. Swedes are relatively anti-social at the best of times.

Furthermore Sweden is the fourth largest country in Europe and has a low population density relative to its size, especially in the North. 10 million people.

They have the highest number of single occupancy households in the world. Again that means they have natural social distancing, and so less community transmission.
There's probably other reasons but that's off the top of my head right now.

kowloon

Dravokivich wrote: »

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

I seem to remember that being a thing in New York before it was here.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yes, that's it, thank you. I just knew we'd banned something somewhere, you have to take whatever small victory you can get!!

While we aren't perfect for a small island nation we have trailblazed plenty of times throughout recent times and past history.

I get what you're saying about being proud, I love this country always have always will.

I do think we have done as good a job as possible so far with this virus. While there will always be a handful of gob****e citizens I believe our government, health services, front line and essential workers along with individual communities have more than stepped up to the plate.

Joe_ Public

Clark Dry Kidney wrote: »

No but we were the first country in the world to ban smoking in all workplaces, I think that's the ban they were referring to.

Yes, that's it, thank you. I just knew we'd banned something somewhere, you have to take whatever small victory you can get!!

timsey tiger

I think we were the first country with a complete workplace ban on smoking.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Dravokivich wrote: »

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

No but we were the first country in the world to ban smoking in all workplaces, I think that's the ban they were referring to.

Dravokivich

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Just to speak up for lil ol ireland, we're not by any measure the worlds biggest trailblazers, but we do have our rare moments. Not just same sex marriage or other referenda stuff. Some years back i think we were the first to put the tax on plastic bags and may be even the first to ban smoking in public places too. Not sure how many others have given a commitment to selling off all its fossil fuels. Small stuff, i know, that doesnt really get remembered but I'm kinda proud of those things anyway.

We weren't the first with smoking bans in public places.

The difference with the Same Sex Marriage thing, was that the public needed to vote it through. Whereas elsewhere, governments could get it through without putting a vote to the public on it.

Joe_ Public

That chinese lockdown definitely seemed the real deal. The irish times had a piece with an irish guy living in wuhan last week. He was on day 64 of not being able to leave his apartment.

astrofool

2u2me wrote: »

I have too much time on my hands and was interested in seeing this list. I found it here.

Why is Gabon in as a corruption rank of 4th (Yes 4th!) with a corruption score of 31. That seems pretty corrupt to me. Our score of 73 was much higher than theirs.

I think that's a bug on the web page.

[Deleted User]

The Chinese lock-down was beyond anything that is happening/ happened in the Western world.

dsmythy

2u2me wrote: »

Are you aware that they enforced a draconian lockdown for a duration of 11 weeks, much earlier than the rest of the world, that just ended in the last few days? Do you think it had any effect on the spread of the virus?

They were late themselves on their lockdown. But I can get how an Authoritarian regime might be able to enact a true lockdown compared to western attempts.

2u2me

Mongfinder General wrote: »

A country of over a billion records 80000 cases.

Italy, Spain and the U.S. have recorded 10 times as many cases between them and their combined populations are not even half that of China.

The Chinese are lying.

Are you aware that they enforced a draconian lockdown for a duration of 11 weeks, much earlier than the rest of the world, that just ended in the last few days? Do you think it had any effect on the spread of the virus?

Joe_ Public

Just to speak up for lil ol ireland, we're not by any measure the worlds biggest trailblazers, but we do have our rare moments. Not just same sex marriage or other referenda stuff. Some years back i think we were the first to put the tax on plastic bags and may be even the first to ban smoking in public places too. Not sure how many others have given a commitment to selling off all its fossil fuels. Small stuff, i know, that doesnt really get remembered but I'm kinda proud of those things anyway.

2u2me

KiKi III wrote: »

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

I would say most if not all countries' number of infected is off up to an order of magnitude. This doesn't necessarily mean they're lying. It only proves how unprepared we were for such a crisis.

What countries would you say are lying?

Mongfinder General

KiKi III wrote: »

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

A country of over a billion records 80000 cases.

Italy, Spain and the U.S. have recorded 10 times as many cases between them and their combined populations are not even half that of China.

The Chinese are lying.

KiKi III

niallo27 wrote: »

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

Some countries are almost definitely lying.

Some countries are not lying but they are recording things differently.

It makes side-by-side comparisons difficult.

2u2me

Greentopia wrote: »

Sweden is one of the most transparent and least corrupt nations on earth, ranked 4th last year and consistently ranking in the top 5 least corrupt countries in the world.
Ireland is 18 btw.

I have too much time on my hands and was interested in seeing this list. I found it here.

Why is Gabon in as a corruption rank of 4th (Yes 4th!) with a corruption score of 31. That seems pretty corrupt to me. Our score of 73 was much higher than theirs.

[Deleted User]

niallo27 wrote: »

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

does appear that China is trying cover up control the narrative on how it broke out...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/deleted-pages-suggest-china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-1.4227107

niallo27

It appears that if any country numbers are on the lower scale there has to be a conspiracy around it or there are lying about the numbers.

[Deleted User]

Logan Roy wrote: »

I feel like we never think outside of the box in this country, it's always a case of following everyone else and usually from far behind. It's only through referendums that we have actually done anything you could consider progressive. Ultra conservative politics rule round these parts unfortunately.

yes. we're followers

ldy4mxonucwsq6

metricspaces wrote: »

Ok. I guess you know better and the Dept of Health lied yesterday when they said that people who needed ICU were not being denied based on age. Never let the facts get in the way of a good drama or conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy theory, just facts.

Supportive/palliative care mainly offered for nursing home residents who contract coronavirus.

Nursing homes are being very transparent on this, if you have a relative in a nursing home go ask them what the procedure will be if they get infected they will tell you.

Unfortunately the prognosis in general for someone in a nursing home would not be good, heartbreaking. The ICUs would be bursting otherwise but they aren't yet despite the number of daily deaths, so I'm sure you can work that out for yourself.