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Who Are The People Buying Sex This Way?

Zorya

A few articles I read recently got me thinking again about something that has long bothered me.

Laila Mickelwait is an activist against the legalisation of prostitution, and the article I came across was about a mega brothel that existed in Germany offering 'flat rate' services, ie the punters paid a set fee upon entry, showered and put on a towel, bought a drink or some food, and then had access to any available woman in the building for any service over a period of time.

Pussy Club advertised itself thus -

"Sex with all women as long as you want, as often as you want and the way you want. Sex. Anal sex. Oral sex without a condom. Three-ways. Group sex. Gang bangs." The price: €70 during the day and €100 in the evening.

1700 people queued to get in on opening night.

In 2017 Germany outlawed flat rate brothels. Mickelwait describes how things were there -

By the end of the opening day many of the women had collapsed from exhaustion, pain, injuries, and infections, including painful rashes and fungal infections that had spread from their genitals down their legs.

Over 1 million people pay for sex per day in Germany. 400,000 people at last estimate work as prostitutes there. Many are trafficked. In fact it is said that Germany has become the "center for the sexual exploitation of young women from Eastern Europe, as well as a sphere of activity for organized crime groups from around the world." (Wiki).
Spain is a centre for sex trafficking. 300,000 women, mostly trafficked, work as prostitutes since decriminalisation. Legalisation makes trafficking easier. Another article said that almost every town in Scotland has trafficked prostitutes. Sex slaves, basically. A quarter of people trafficked into sex slavery are children. Human trafficking is huge in Europe. It is the second most profitable criminal activity after drugs.

Prostitutes are now being defined as ''sex workers'', as if the term ''worker'', with its implied respectable transactional element, can somehow legitimise this. This is the modern feminist perspective - to fight for their ''rights''. This is bullsh!t. With trafficked people making up such a huge bulk of the prostitutes worker is an impossible definition.

One article I read described how a person who worked as a receptionist in a legal brothel in Australia gradually went from supporting the legalisation of ''sex work'' to realising its unrelenting brutality.

What occurs to me is who are the people who are comfortable buying sex in such situations?
How can ordinary people get off when they must suspect that the prostitutes are basically slaves?

Personally I can see a place for sexual services in society. For example, people who work offering sex to the disabled. Independent consorts who offer services to people going through a dry spell or unable to meet a sexual partner. Reasonable regulated services where people have a bit of manners and both people are voluntarily acting and protected. But this does not seem to be anywhere near the norm.

It's freaky to think that there are bad people out there who would rape or practise incest, but at least one can realise that they do not exist huge numbers. They are aberrations. But for this atrocious slave trade to be as enormously profitable as it is, it requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of ordinary people all over the world to be prepared to pay money every day to abuse and degrade sex slaves. That is soooo much more freaky.

Who are these ordinary monsters?

Some sources -
http://lailamickelwait.com/2018/03/21/germany-europes-biggest-brothel/
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sex-slaves-almost-every-scottish-16166552
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/11/prostitution-tackling-spain-sex-traffickers
https://nordicmodelnow.org/2018/07/01/working-as-a-receptionist-in-a-legal-brothel-prostitution-is-anything-but-a-normal-job/

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Feisar

WAW wrote: »

How many of the moral relativists and defenders of prostitution and users of prostitutes would themselves be happy to submit their bodies to the slobbering, hammering, pounding, pawing by multiples of (usually) men and deal with the pain, infections, physical trauma, bowel problems, incontinence, not to mention the emotional effects? Not so sexy. If it was just about sex, anything would do. But it's not, obviously. Some dark part of even the nicest-seeming sex service user needs an emotional core inside the sex object, i.e prostitute....why is that? They know the women don't enjoy it. They know they pretend. They know the physical reality of what happens to prostitutes' bodies over time. Because that dark part of humankind likes to dominate, like to feel power over others, likes to humiliate, likes to metaphorically sh*t on another human being.

Metaphorically?

Force Carrier

Feisar wrote: »

Metaphorically?

Donald?

Berserker

nacho libre wrote: »

I can see how others who might be socially awkward, and perhaps starved of sex feel the need to pay for it. If the woman is not trafficked, and it's her choice to be a prostitute, i don't see the problem in this scenario.

I do feel for people who fall into the category you describe but there is no way of knowing that a prostitute is there of her own free will. Amsterdam has issues with trafficked women working in the RLD, as noted earlier in the thread.

Junkyard Tom

Zorya wrote: »

Some, maybe even a lot of, neo-marxist feminists use the word worker along with sex to the same end.

Isn't 'sex-worker' a little more respectful to the person than 'Whore', 'Prostitute' or 'Bum Bandit'? I doubt 'sex-worker' is used to make the person purchasing sexual 'services' feel better.

Also, with the rise of the internet as method of providing a shop window, as it were, I though the whole whore-house and pimping thing was on the wane?

mvl

.Charlo wrote: »

I read somewhere recently scientists were teaching monkeys the concept of money, they first started exchanging money for food, not long after that they were paying female monkeys for sex.

let's keep it gender neutral plse

during the chaos event, observed how one of the monkeys exchanged money to another for sex. After the act was over, the monkey which was paid immediately used it to buy a grape

dotsman

I assume everybody here in favour of the continued criminalisation of prostitution and the persecution of those who engage in it are also in favour of criminalising pornography and persecuting all involved (actors and viewers alike)?

cgcsb

Thespoofer wrote: »

I've been to Eastern Europe a good number of times on a few business investments in the past. The business partner ( not any more) I was involved with was a few years my senior.

On a number of these trips he would have brought along friends of his to basically 'see the sights' so to speak.
A few times the group, me included, ended up in premises where sex was sold, there'd be alcohol sold at these places also. Most of the other members of the group would have purchased sex no problem. I always refrained.

One time kind of stuck with me, we went to a premises and shortly after arriving the boss walked all the ladies ( all beautiful) out in a line in front of us and asked each one of us which one we would like to take. When it came to my turn I politely refused, its not my thing.

I always remember the look on the ladies faces, tired, kind of sad and I suspect a deep hatred of men.

The industry I work in ( construction) has a very large percentage of people willing to use prostitutes. I don't find it one bit appealing and just for the record, I'm a very red blooded male and like to look at an attractive female just as much as the next guy.

Things that never happened for $400!

You do realise you just described a scene from a Liam Neeson movie.

cgcsb

WAW wrote: »

How many of the moral relativists and defenders of prostitution and users of prostitutes would themselves be happy to submit their bodies to the slobbering, hammering, pounding, pawing by multiples of (usually) men and deal with the pain, infections, physical trauma, bowel problems, incontinence, not to mention the emotional effects? Not so sexy. If it was just about sex, anything would do. But it's not, obviously. Some dark part of even the nicest-seeming sex service user needs an emotional core inside the sex object, i.e prostitute....why is that? They know the women don't enjoy it. They know they pretend. They know the physical reality of what happens to prostitutes' bodies over time. Because that dark part of humankind likes to dominate, like to feel power over others, likes to humiliate, likes to metaphorically sh*t on another human being.

That's your view of it. For some people, they probably are happy to do it, some prositiutes hand pick the nicest clients, its also none of yojr business really. When I was a student I worked in retail and catering. During that time I've been attacked physically and verbally by 'customers'. The things people say to you when they feel that they've paid for something is unreal. Right prostitution is a more extreme form of same but still its something that suits some people.

ToddyDoody

This is graphic.

This is why people need to book in advance.

Pussy Club advertised itself thus -

"Sex with all women as long as you want, as often as you want and the way you want. Sex. Anal sex. Oral sex without a condom. Three-ways. Group sex. Gang bangs." The price: €70 during the day and €100 in the evening.

1700 people queued to get in on opening night.

In 2017 Germany outlawed flat rate brothels. Mickelwait describes how things were there -
By the end of the opening day many of the women had collapsed from exhaustion, pain, injuries, and infections, including painful rashes and fungal infections that had spread from their genitals down their legs.

Gimme A Pound

cgcsb wrote: »

That's your view of it. For some people, they probably are happy to do it, some prositiutes hand pick the nicest clients, its also none of yojr business really. When I was a student I worked in retail and catering. During that time I've been attacked physically and verbally by 'customers'. The things people say to you when they feel that they've paid for something is unreal. Right prostitution is a more extreme form of same but still its something that suits some people.

The bolded part could be said about absolutely anything. This topic always brings out such defensiveness, nerves being jarred, deflection, downplaying, whataboutery. If it's because it causes discomfort to those who pay for sex and don't have a crap attitude towards the prostitute, and the prostitute is perfectly fine with what they're doing... happy days. That's not what's being critiqued.

People will discuss the negatives - I don't understand why you keep effectively telling them to shut up, with dubious comparisons. Yeah I've worked in customer service and dealt with utter maniacs - it's still nothing compared to the physical effects as described in the opening post.

Few would argue that there aren't people who choose to do it, who are ok with it, for whom it suits... but we're not talking about them, so how is that a rebuttal?

ILoveYourVibes

The industry is very varied. I wouldn't paint all of them with one brush.

You have to take places and people as you find them.

Who is doing it?

Men.

Sometimes these men meet the genuine article. The more they hang around though the more susceptible they are to cons. Getting drugged or robbed etc. And they NEVER report it ...especially the married ones.

Do i judge it? Not with one brush stroke.

If you are a hooker with a sense of humor, you do what you do freely, you watch out for other women, then you are ok with me.

If you are punter you are polite, use women 18 and over, and realize they are human you are ok with me.

They are not all good they are not all bad.

And most of all ...its none of my business what consenting adults do.

ILoveYourVibes

cgcsb wrote: »

Things that never happened for $400!

You do realise you just described a scene from a Liam Neeson movie.

Where do you think hollywood got it from ...their 'creativity' or Charlie Sheen's diary?

My Dad used to run hotels ..all through Europe ....HUGE issues with trafficking

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47201210

ILoveYourVibes

WAW wrote: »

How many of the moral relativists and defenders of prostitution and users of prostitutes would themselves be happy to submit their bodies to the slobbering, hammering, pounding, pawing by multiples of (usually) men and deal with the pain, infections, physical trauma, bowel problems, incontinence, not to mention the emotional effects? Not so sexy. If it was just about sex, anything would do. But it's not, obviously. Some dark part of even the nicest-seeming sex service user needs an emotional core inside the sex object, i.e prostitute....why is that? They know the women don't enjoy it. They know they pretend. They know the physical reality of what happens to prostitutes' bodies over time. Because that dark part of humankind likes to dominate, like to feel power over others, likes to humiliate, likes to metaphorically sh*t on another human being.

They are not all like that.:rolleyes:

Gimme A Pound

Wha?

As you say yourself, it's varied - good and bad.

And it's the bad that's being discussed here, which of course there's obviously nothing wrong with judging.

How do you know about stuff that's not reported? (Unless you've heard reliable anecdotes I guess).

Gimme A Pound

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Where do you think hollywood got it from ...their 'creativity' or Charlie Sheen's diary?

My Dad used to run hotels ..all through Europe ....HUGE issues with trafficking

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47201210

And there you go - that's the bad aspect which the opening post is focusing on.

ILoveYourVibes

Berserker wrote: »

I do feel for people who fall into the category you describe but there is no way of knowing that a prostitute is there of her own free will. Amsterdam has issues with trafficked women working in the RLD, as noted earlier in the thread.

There is a way of indicating it. Does she have her own passport in her belonging? Does she have her own independent apartment etc? Does she have a bank account in her name? Does she have her own cash?

Is she allowed leave during her shift lets say for an emergency?

If she is foreign has she had a trip home in the last year?

Does she have her own money on her? Does she buy her own toiletries clothes underwear etc?

Does she speak the language of the country she is in?

Can she drive ? Does she have a car? If not does she have a bus ticket?

One SURE question a punter can ask is this.....hey what do you think of the city? What have you seen? What have you done while you were here? Can you recommend anything?

A girl who has been working in a city for a year and can't navigate herself around it even a little ..something is usually wrong.

And yes there prostitutes do are happy and safe in their jobs.

ILoveYourVibes

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

And there you go - that's the bad aspect which the opening post is focusing on.

There is good and bad.

The good
https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2017/02/06/what-unites-sex-workers-rights-and-abortion-rights-movements/

http://sexworkersallianceireland.org/

I agree with her ....whether or not you are talking about the good or the bad it shoudn't be illegal ..they deserve rights.

There is something amazing about women uniting to scream hoes need abortions

ITS LIKE HISTORIC!

Sardonicat

Do 'punters' usually personally check if she has her passport on her etc? Check for receipts for toiletries and clothes? Check the name on her apartment lease?
How would they know any of these things if using a brothel like the one mentioned in the OP?

ILoveYourVibes

Sardonicat wrote: »

Do 'punters' usually personally check if she has her passport on her etc? Check for receipts for toiletries and clothes? Check the name on her apartment lease?
How would they know any of these things if using a brothel like the one mentioned in the OP?

Most of you i am sure are savvy enough to just KNOW. Trust your gut.

Punters are just ordinary dudes.

Gimme A Pound

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is good and bad

Yes, I know. We've both acknowledged it numerous times, but this thread is about the bad.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's like you're arguing against something that wasn't said (well, not by the vast majority here anyway).

ILoveYourVibes

Jamari Lemon Shrimp wrote: »

Yes, I know. We've both acknowledged it numerous times, but this thread is about the bad.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Apologies. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic.

ILoveYourVibes

I guess 'sextortion' scams and drugging or robbing of clients would be part of the bad.

Violence against prostitutes. I assume it differs wildly from country to country.

ILoveYourVibes

Its a grey area ....Ireland is better

Maybe background checks on punters would help???

If you couldn't go to a brothel without a background check and a reference?

Make it more like a members club where you have to get on a list for full membership.
Lol at something in one of those articles

They want a girl to look inexperienced etc. They want a prostitute who is inexperienced at sex? Fine chance.

Zorya

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is a way of indicating it. Does she have her own passport in her belonging? Does she have her own independent apartment etc? Does she have a bank account in her name? Does she have her own cash?

Is she allowed leave during her shift lets say for an emergency?

If she is foreign has she had a trip home in the last year?

Does she have her own money on her? Does she buy her own toiletries clothes underwear etc?

Does she speak the language of the country she is in?

Can she drive ? Does she have a car? If not does she have a bus ticket?

One SURE question a punter can ask is this.....hey what do you think of the city? What have you seen? What have you done while you were here? Can you recommend anything?

A girl who has been working in a city for a year and can't navigate herself around it even a little ..something is usually wrong.

.

I don't get all of this, as if people are interviewing the prostitute before sex? It is not like that. After the mega brothel opening night there was a big discussion group held online where the punters complained among each other that the women were not fit to use after a few hours. You think such people give a damn about the provenance of her underwear?

Some of the problems with decriminalisation is it means the police cannot go into brothels to check what is happening because they are now ''legal''. The brothels have a de facto seal of approval and traffickers move into those spaces easily. And because it is legal the punters demand more, as they now see it is their right. In some of these places the prostitutes pay to rent the space, and I have read that some must have sex with 6 people just to pay the rent each day. Only after six people per day can they start making profit. Fuxake.

Anyways two recent cases.
Germany. Tuesday.

Five people have gone on trial in Germany for allegedly trafficking up to 200 Thai women and forcing them to work in a nationwide network of brothels.

The four Thai women and a German man were arrested last year in what was dubbed the biggest mass search in the history of the federal police.

The victims were smuggled into the country on fake tourist visas and initially forced to work in three brothels in the western city of Siegen before being moved elsewhere, it is alleged.

Prostitution is legal in Germany, but the suspects allegedly did not pay the women.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48350961?fbclid=IwAR1dwibPqGjlMFNCN9nQwMWYPBxZ-euEkfnIxjmzlXVXiytj7lT_yNRLOzE

China. This week.

Thousands of North Korean women and girls are being forced to work in the sex trade in China, according to a new report by a London-based rights group.

"Victims are prostituted for as little as 30 Chinese yuan ($4.30; £3.40), sold as wives for just 1,000 yuan, and trafficked into cybersex dens for exploitation by a global online audience," the report's author Yoon Hee-soon said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48340210

Dr Ingeborg Kraus argues on behalf of abolition or at least the Nordic model. This is one thing she said -

There is a recent medical report from a gynaecologist who is working with prostituted women. The health condition of those women is catastrophic. With 30 years they are very often pre-aged. All women have persistent abdominal pains, Gastritis and frequent infections, also due to the unhealthy living conditions. And of course, all kinds of sexually transmittable diseases. The psychological traumatisation can just only be coped with through alcohol and pharmaceutical drugs. He reports about a growing demand for pregnant women in prostitution. Those women have to serve 15 to 40 men a day continuously until they give birth. Very often, they abandon their child and go to work as soon as possible. Sometimes 3 days after birthing of the child.

https://www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/2016/06/05/stellungnahme-von-wolfgang-heide-facharzt-fuer-gynaekologie-und-geburtshilfe/

suicide_circus

i wonder what would happen of all prostitution ended tomorrow, all over the world, just like that?

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

I don't get all of this, as if people are interviewing the prostitute before sex? It is not like that. After the mega brothel opening night there was a big discussion group held online where the punters complained among each other that the women were not fit to use after a few hours. You think such people give a damn about the provenance of her underwear?

Some of the problems with decriminalisation is it means the police cannot go into brothels to check what is happening because they are now ''legal''. The brothels have a de facto seal of approval and traffickers move into those spaces easily. And because it is legal the punters demand more, as they now see it is their right. In some of these places the prostitutes pay to rent the space, and I have read that some must have sex with 6 people just to pay the rent each day. Only after six people per day can they start making profit. Fuxake.

Anyways two recent cases.
Germany. Tuesday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48350961?fbclid=IwAR1dwibPqGjlMFNCN9nQwMWYPBxZ-euEkfnIxjmzlXVXiytj7lT_yNRLOzE

China. This week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48340210

Dr Ingeborg Kraus argues on behalf of abolition or at least the Nordic model. This is one thing she said -

https://www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/2016/06/05/stellungnahme-von-wolfgang-heide-facharzt-fuer-gynaekologie-und-geburtshilfe/

All of this is not caused by prostitution though. Its caused by bad people or more specifically bad men.

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

i wonder what would happen of all prostitution ended tomorrow, all over the world, just like that?

i wonder

Zorya

suicide_circus wrote: »

i wonder what would happen of all prostitution ended tomorrow, all over the world, just like that?

But that's not what I am saying. At all.

One has to be still allowed to say that much of what is definitely happening in that world is vile and disturbing and wrong.
It is actually the vague suggestion that speaking out against it makes one somehow a prude or conservative that is facilitating the continuation of what is absolutely disgusting.

ILoveYourVibes

Zorya wrote: »

But that's not what I am saying. At all.

One has to be still allowed to say that much of what is definitely happening in that world is vile and disturbing and wrong.
It is actually the vague suggestion that speaking out against it makes one somehow a prude or conservative that is facilitating the continuation of what is absolutely disgusting.

I don't think for a moment you are a prude. I understand why you are saying what you say. It just means you care.

Legal changes are easy to make. Cultural ones or culture wide psychological ones are harder.

The other factor is just sheer poverty.

Things are deeply interconnected.

suicide_circus

Zorya wrote: »

But that's not what I am saying. At all.

One has to be still allowed to say that much of what is definitely happening in that world is vile and disturbing and wrong.
It is actually the vague suggestion that speaking out against it makes one somehow a prude or conservative that is facilitating the continuation of what is absolutely disgusting.

but surely you want this vile trade to cease? and i'm wondering what impact that would have.
For example;
*a crushing blow to human traffickers
*emancipation of countless women
*an income source cut off for countless women
*hoards of frustrated men
*freeing up of police/court resources

as for the prude comments, the argument is that sex is traditionally the one aspect of life in which women absolutely dominate men, holding all the cards and that some object to prostitution not on the grounds of the suffering of prostitutes but because it frees their husbands from their sexual control.