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Child Item

Leap card misuse- fine!

Msrebeckyxo

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

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Irish Steve

EdgeCase wrote: »

You could do, but I would assume the cheapest rollout would just be some kind of handheld ticket machine with card functionality to just process fixed amounts.

At present, the banking system is still pretty brutally slow, so things like putting a temporary hold of say €10 or €20 on a card while a journey is in progress could turn out to be something that takes 24 hours or more to drop off as most of the banks still batch-process over night and can't handle true real-time transactions.

The banking system is worse than that in some cases, there is a real time note of the transaction, but it can then take up to 5 days before the final processing occurs, the transaction is pending for that period, which could be a major issue if the hold is considerably more than the final total taken.

What we are seeing is the result of a massive lack of investment across the state in areas such as broadband, other infrastructure, including Rail and public transport, and the result of the crash in the banking systems, which has resulted in a massive cut back in computer capability which is now causing regular reliability problems as they desperately try to update, but can't because the old core system are almost unmaintainable, so anything new is grafted on around the edges, with massive compromises as a result. That's one of the reasons Bank of Ireland can't deal with things like Android Pay, though they won't admit it, and there are other fundamental issues with several of the banks, as evidenced earlier this week with Ulster's problems, and there were similar problems in the UK with a failed update of systems there.

There's no votes for politicians in sorting these sorts of issues out, so they are nowhere near their radar, I'm not expecting to see anything serious in the infrastructure areas for the foreseeable future, there will be other problems like sorting out the public service pay rates that will eat up any small surplus that might be available after the books are balanced, so critical projects that will improve the performance of the whole economy will be deferred or neutralised in order to keep the voters happy, and protect the status of the untouchable elite that are at the top of the pyramid.

Cynical? Yes, because I've been watching the system for long enough to know that it makes no difference who we all vote for, the structure of "the system" is so well formed that it's become unchangeable, and a change of political leadership makes no real difference and doesn't change how that core system operates.

EdgeCase

Banking computer infrastructure is globally awful. They're still stuck in a world of batch processing and huge delays. Real time intrabank payments are still only being rolled out in Europe at present with SCTInst, an extension of the existing SEPA system and that's only in very early days.

Visa and MasterCard also don't really support proper realtime transactions and take considerable time to post.

It's actually nothing to so with Irish broadband infrastructure or even the Irish banks. The whole sector is in a timewarp. They're still issuing cards with highly insecure 1960s technology magstripes due to foot dragging in the USA and elsewhere and using a card payment system that essentially relies on trusting card numbers not to be stolen.

I'd suspect the banks will end up probably losing transactional banking to mobile phone based services - there's very little preventing Google or someone at the very least displacing Visa and MC with their own platform entirely if they directly dealt with banks.

But to cut a long story short, there are reasons why existing POS card technology isn't really suitable as a Leap replacement.

It could only really work easily for flat fare tag on only type systems or on board the buses where you ask for a particular fare as it could be charged as simple contactless card TX.

Calina

You can use contactless instead of an Oystercard in London. I have done this.

Additionally I would like to see a TFI app which stores ticket information rather than even having to carry a leap card.

But that doesn't address the major problem here which is unless you do some research in advance you won't know that Newbridge is outside the zone covered by Leapcards. Irish Rail could do better on passenger friendly information.

HonalD

HonalD wrote: »

Given we’ve strayed way off not having a valid ticket for a journey into a debate about an national leap card zoning system.

To all the posters suggesting having valid store everywhere, How would that work?

For example, you’re getting a train from heuston to Sallins which is a service to cork. You will need €60 at least deducted from your leap card as you may extend your journey to cork as per a similar situation to the OP.

So if you take the same train every day you need to ensure you’ve too much money on your card just to cover those who may decide to extend their journey? Hands up anyone who wants to do that, just in case they might go one or more stations once and feel a fine is too extreme?

So the introduction of a national leap card zoning system is not straightforward. Or a debit/credit card system either. Not a surprise to those who know how complicated integrated ticketing systems are.

But of course, if you want to pile a whole pile of money at it then I’m sure you can sort it out but which other infrastructure projects will we cancel instead. Lesson is these systems aren’t straightforward so catering for what if situations, like the OP would massively increase the cost on taxpayers if a national zonal ticketing system was introduced.....and that’s only on one mode.

EdgeCase

Calina wrote: »

You can use contactless instead of an Oystercard in London. I have done this.

.

The main reason is the maximum risk is £8.90 in London and buses use a flat fee. You could use contactless here with a city transit system without any issue.

If the funds aren't there, the bank blocks contactless or will leave a temporary unauthorised overdraft if the amount goes through and isn't caught by the system.

The problem with holds would arrise when you get beyond the contactless limits of €30.00 which would make it messy with Intercity as you would need to get pin authorisation.

You could use it with Google Pay and Apple Pay, authorising "on device" with a fingerprint, face ID or a lock pattern, but it's potentially not that instant if you've people fiddling with phones at barriers trying to authenticate.

Contactless works but the banks' infrastructure (globally) isn't fast enough to provide true real time reporting of transactions, so you can end up with unauthorised overdrafts and so on.

You've also got to remember that Leap was developed before EMV cards had contactless and has more functionality in terms of holding tickets and so on.

I'd say your biggest challenge in Ireland would be finding a bank that would offer a deal sweet enough to make contactless feasible for the NTA. It's more about transaction fees than technology barriers.

Be well and win

In addition to the flat fee, the banks in London accept liability if they fail to acknowledge and approve a transaction in a particular period of time. TFL had to negotiate that with the banks as a whole. TFI would need to do something similar in Ireland.

EdgeCase

They've agreed that with their bank, as it accepts all Visa and MasterCard contactless cards. I've used Irish and Belgian ones without any problems.

The banks have always allowed "off line" processing in certain cases, for example where a communication link is unavailable - any card with embossed numbers can still be processed entirely offline with carbon paper and this slide roll machines - 1960s style. There's a different set of liabilities and you'll be simply hit with an unauthorised overdrafts and usually a penalty fee if a transaction posts without funds available.

The retailer still gets paid.

If you keep doing that and don't get keep your account in order, they’ll just classify it as “delinquent” and you can end up with your card facilities removed and you’ll just get an ATM card (or occasionally an electronic only card - but I don’t think many (any) Irish banks issue those).

The majority of transactions are authorised online but not always and those kinds of setups can be the exceptions to the rule.

[Deleted User]

EdgeCase wrote: »

T
The banks have always allowed "off line" processing in certain cases, for example where a communication link is unavailable - any card with embossed numbers can still be processed entirely offline with carbon paper and this slide roll machines - 1960s style. There's a different set of liabilities and you'll be simply hit with an unauthorised overdrafts and usually a penalty fee if a transaction posts without funds available.

The retailer still gets paid.

Yes, manual credit card processing still used occasionally - at markets etc when an electronic terminal is not available. Unattractive to retailers as commission charge is higher - but necessary as a back up. For transactions above a certain limit they need to telephone for an authorisation code

Carawaystick

OSI wrote: »

Not the OP's property:

And followed immediately by:

Being:

If the NTA have a webpage
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/NavigationPages/CardPurchase.aspx

that you navigate to by clicking on a "Buy" button, it would seem that the card is the OP's property and the nta has sold it.

Losty Dublin

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the NTA have a webpage
https://www.leapcard.ie/en/NavigationPages/CardPurchase.aspx

that you navigate to by clicking on a "Buy" button, it would seem that the card is the OP's property and the nta has sold it.

Virtually every transport company's tickets come with a caveat that the ticket remains the property of the body that issues it. Leap is no different. It is a permission to travel subject to conditions and confers no ownership of same onto you.

goingnowhere

1.3 The Leap Card is and remains the property of the Authority.

Nice and simple.

It would be impossible to inspect the card otherwise

Bob24

goingnowhere wrote: »

Nice and simple.

It would be impossible to inspect the card otherwise

This was discussed a few pages ago. Yes the T&Cs clearly say that the card belongs to the NTA and they give themselves the right to recover it at any point (which is indeed standard practice); but the card doesn't belong to Irish Rail and nothing in the T&Cs gives Irish Rail the authority to confiscate a card (all the sections of the T&Cs related to to the ownership of the card and the right to recover the card refer to "the authority" which in the definition section is described as referring to the NTA only and is separate from "transport operators").

It would be the same with a credit card. The card is the property of the person's bank (which plays the same same role as the NTA), but a shop which accepts this type of card as a payment method (same role as Irish Rail) wouldn't have any authority to confiscate a card even if they suspect a fraud.

EdgeCase

I'd assume they should have recorded the card number and contacted the NTA / Leap office to remove the IE virtual ticket or have some local ability with their handheld terminal to invalidate it.

They're probably treating the Leap cards as if they're Irish Rail tickets, which they're not and may contain cash balances and other passes.

That's why I would ask the NTA to retrieve and return their card, not Irish Rail. They need to be aware of this.

Carawaystick

goingnowhere wrote: »

Nice and simple.

It would be impossible to inspect the card otherwise

How can they say a person can buy a leapcard so? Are they lying? It seems like a misleading business practise, which is illegal.

Tigger

Cakerbaker wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again, there is a difference between evadng the fare and making a genuine mistake. Tagging on is, at the very least, an indication that she was willing to pay her fare. What is the difference between the fares to both of these stations, does anyone know? Is it more than a fiver?

It’s over €10. Leap card single from Heuston to Sallins is around €3.70. It’s something like €14.50 for a single ticket to Newbridge.

how much is sallins to nb?

RossieMan

Carawaystick wrote:

How can they say a person can buy a leapcard so? Are they lying? It seems like a misleading business practise, which is illegal.

You're buying a service. Not a product.

Bob24

RossieMan wrote: »

You're buying a service. Not a product.

Actually on the official Leap Card website as linked by the OP it does say “Buy a Leap Card”, so it is indeed wrongly worded. They should probably write “Get a Leap Card” instead.

But now it is probably a futile discussion and not that important. What matters here is that as per the T&Cs the NTA owns the physical card and can recover it at any time, but Irish Rail doesn’t and their staff don’t have the authority to confiscate a card.

billyhead

Bob24 wrote: »

Actually on the official Leap Card website as linked by the OP it does say “Buy a Leap Card”, so it is indeed wrongly worded. They should probably write “Get a Leap Card” instead.

But now it is probably a futile discussion and not that important. What matters here is that as per the T&Cs the NTA owns the physical card and can recover it at any time, but Irish Rail doesn’t and their staff don’t have the authority to confiscate a card.

Can't Irish Rail obtain the leap card number, check the current status, travel history etc on it and if its been used inappropriately have it blocked
, cancelled etc?

Bob24

billyhead wrote: »

Can't Irish Rail obtain the leap card number, check the current status, travel history etc on it and if its been used inappropriately have it blocked
, cancelled etc?

Yes if they think there is an issue they should take note of the card number. They can’t cancel the card themselves but they can report it to the NTA which is able to block/cancel/recover the card if deemed necessary.

The key point is that the authority in charge of the Leap Card network is the NTA and Irish Rail is “just” a partner so wherether they they like it or not they have to go through the NTA for any issue related to the card and have no authority to confiscate a card (and actually in my experience if the issue is at the disaventage of the customer they will happily say it is not their problem: I once had an issue with a DART top up machine processing payment on my debit card but not topping-up my Leap Card accordingly, and in that case they were happy not to help and to point out that they are not in charge of Leap Card and I should talk to the NTA).

billyhead

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes if they think there is an issue they should take note of the card number. They can’t cancel the card themselves but they can report it to the NTA which is able to block/cancel/recover the card if deemed necessary.

The key point is that the authority in charge of the Leap Card network is the NTA and Irish Rail is “just” a partner so wherether they they like it or not they have to go through the NTA for any issue related to the card and have no authority to confiscate a card (and actually in my experience if the issue is at the disaventage of the customer they will happily say it is not their problem: I once had an issue with a DART top up machine processing payment on my debit card but not topping-up my Leap Card accordingly, and in that case they were happy not to help and to point out that they are not in charge of Leap Card and I should talk to the NTA).

I have noticed that sometimes when I try to top up my leap card by say €50 using a debit card it comes back declined on the machine and then when I try it on an alternative machine at the station on the other side of the platform it accepts the payment and when I check my online bank account the POS transaction for the declined payment is pending.

Bob24

billyhead wrote: »

I have noticed that sometimes when I try to top up my leap card by say €50 using a debit card it comes back declined on the machine and then when I try it on an alternative machine at the station on the other side of the platform it accepts the payment and when I check my online bank account the POS transaction for the declined payment is pending.

Actually I think there was a bug: after the small display on the POS terminal said transaction complete, the main large display of the ticket machine didn’t move on and kept asking go complete the payment (but the transaction had gotten through on my account).

The Irish Rail staff at the the station had zero interest in looking into the issue and just told me to contact customer service; and eventually the transaction was reversed.

Losty Dublin

Bob24 wrote: »

Actually on the official Leap Card website as linked by the OP it does say “Buy a Leap Card”, so it is indeed wrongly worded. They should probably write “Get a Leap Card” instead.

But now it is probably a futile discussion and not that important. What matters here is that as per the T&Cs the NTA owns the physical card and can recover it at any time, but Irish Rail doesn’t and their staff don’t have the authority to confiscate a card.

Nonsense nonsense nonsense. Irish Rail staff have the authority to confiscate Leap cards if they so wish and do so.

malene

RossieMan wrote: »

The fact that you're a student is irrelevant to the fine.
Done understand why your leap card got taken, keep the receipts of your tickets, you might be able to get the money for those given your card was taken from you.

if the leapcard is registered, mark it as lost and ask for refund or replacement with the outstanding balance. And get n to barry kenny about newbridge not using leap.

Bob24

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Nonsense nonsense nonsense. Irish Rail staff have the authority to confiscate Leap cards if they so wish and do so.

Irish Rail is not the card issuer/owner (the NTA is), not the police, and nothing in the T&Cs gives them that authority. We’ll just agree to disagree here and people can see the arguments which were given to support each view in the last few pages.

But just to give an exemple of why beyond the the fact that T&Cs don’t grant Irish Rail that authority it wouldn’t make logical sense anyway: if you have 100 euros credit and a Dublin bus monthly pass on the card (things which are not related to Irish Rail as they are only one amongst multiple transport operators accepting the card as a payment method), how would it make sense for them to be allowed to take that away from you and prevent you from accessing your money and using the pass you purchased from another provider? (It is exactly as if the staff at a coffee shop which accepts Visa as a payment method confiscated your debit card because they though you were scamming them: they have no authority as the card belongs to your bank and on top of that it makes no sense for them to prevent you from accessing the money on your bank account ... if they think there is a scam they should report to Visa or to the police)

Losty Dublin

Bob24 wrote: »

Irish Rail is not the card issuer/owner (the NTA is), not the police, and nothing in the T&Cs gives them that authority. We’ll just agree to disagree here and people can see the arguments which were given to support each view in the last few pages.

But just to give an exemple of why beyond the the fact that T&Cs don’t grant Irish Rail that authority it wouldn’t make logical sense anyway: if you have 100 euros credit and a Dublin bus monthly pass on the card (things which are not related to Irish Rail as they are only one amongst multiple transport operators accepting the card as a payment method), how would it make sense for them to be allowed to take that away from you and prevent you from accessing your money and using the pass you purchased from another provider? (It is exactly as if the staff at a coffee shop which accepts Visa as a payment method confiscated your debit card because they though you were scamming them: they have no authority as the card belongs to your bank and on top of that it makes no sense for them to prevent you from accessing the money on your bank account ... if they think there is a scam they should report to Visa or to the police)

When on Irish Rail you are covered under their conditions of carriage. They allow for inspection and/or confiscation of illegal tickets. This includes those who use Leap to pay for their fare or to pre load your travel pass.

Bob24

Losty Dublin wrote: »

When on Irish Rail you are covered under their conditions of carriage. They allow for inspection and/or confiscation of illegal tickets. This includes those who use Leap to pay for their fare or to pre load your travel pass.

Nope. Because you are on their train doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want with something which is not their property. Whatever they write in their conditions (and actually I’m not sure they would dare to write in their T&Cs that they can confiscate a Leap Card) can’t override the law. Again, otherwise a shop owner could could similarity give themselves the right to confiscate your debit card when your are inside their shop.

And also keep in mind that in this case the physical leap card is *not a ticket* as such. It is an electronic wallet which can be loaded with cash and several digital tickets (monthly subscriptions and so on) related to different transport operators. Very different from an Irish Rail only ticket purchased from one of their machines (which they can indeed confiscate).

EdgeCase

I’d say it’s an internal communication / training issue as they’re just assuming Leap Cards are exactly the same as their own paper tickets.

Losty Dublin

Bob24 wrote: »

Nope. Because you are on their train doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want with something which is not their property. Whatever they write in their conditions (and actually I’m not sure they would dare to write in their T&Cs that they can confiscate a Leap Card) can’t override the law).

You may not be aware of this but Irish Rail, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Luas all have byelaws. These byelaws exist as part of various transport Laws as passed by Oireachtas.

In the case of Irish Rail, the 2005 Transport Act is one such law with applicable byelaws that permit the company to inspect tickets and to issue standard fares for traveling without a valid ticket. If and when your Leap card is what you use to pay for your trip, it is your ticket. Misuse it and yes, they have every right to confiscate same.

Subcomandante Marcos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Misuse it and yes, they have every right to confiscate same.

No, they don't, it's not their property. It belong to the NTA. The inspector had no valid reason to confiscate the ticket, he can get all the information he needs by recording the information from the card on his ledger or by scanning the card on his hand held scanner. Taking the card was unneeded and potentially theft.

Bob24

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You may not be aware of this but Irish Rail, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Luas all have byelaws. These byelaws exist as part of various transport Laws as passed by Oireachtas.

In the case of Irish Rail, the 2005 Transport Act is one such law with applicable byelaws that permit the company to inspect tickets and to issue standard fares for traveling without a valid ticket. If and when your Leap card is what you use to pay for your trip, it is your ticket. Misuse it and yes, they have every right to confiscate same.

Yes of course they can check leap cards with a reader to make sure people have paid, and issue fines if it is not the case. But they cannot confiscate the card (and few people on this thread who say they do have the right to do so haven’t linked and quoted the wording any actual law or rule which would give them that right).