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Ireland to consider expelling Russian diplomats

lifeandtimes

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ireland-to-consider-expelling-russian-diplomats-taoiseach-leo-varadkar-36735761.html

This may lead to hightened tensions

So what will it be Nato Vs Russia?

Who will win?

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garbo speaks

Absolutely ludicrous to expel the Russian diplomat over a matter that has zero to do with us, when at the same time we let every asylum seeker in unchecked. This government does nothing but bend the knee to our EU overlords.

mulbot

Mumha wrote: »

Putin ordered a coordinated attack on western democracies since around 2012, how do you know we haven't already been under attack by the Russians, through the funding of groups and through (what we now know about their hacking/bot capability) social media ?

Varadkar is clearly in possession of intel that you and I aren't.

What do we know about their capabilities? It's clearly showing now that fiddling social media happened through Cambridge Analytica, which links through the Americans, not the Russians

Mumha

seamus wrote: »

That makes me chuckle a little bit, because it sounds a lot like the things that poor Neville Chamberlain continually told the British parliament in the run up to WWII.

Putin grew up in the USSR. He was a fully integrated member of the Soviet military, and a highly loyal KGB agent of the Soviet Union.

It would be a mistake to assume that Putin desires anything less than the reintegration of former Soviet states into the Russian federation.

From his point of view, these are Russian territories that have been stolen - they were Russian when he was born and through his entire childhood and early adulthood.

To say that his ambitions "probably" end at Crimea sounds more like blind hope than reason.

Indeed. Peace in our time.....

Mumha

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Does anybody really honk Putin lost the election? That he doesn’t have the support of most of the population?

We'll never know until there are free and fair elections in Russia. Intimidating or forcing trumped up convictions against your opponents, so they are barred from running against Putin, tends to negate any confidence in the Russian electoral process.

Mumha

lifeandtimes wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ireland-is-now-a-fullyfledged-participant-in-modern-cold-war-as-varadkar-says-we-cant-be-neutral-36751533.html

"Varadkar says we can't be neutral in a cold war"

Really don't think that's his f**king call to make to be honest

Its the Irish people's to make.

Words like that will leave us open to retaliation

Putin ordered a coordinated attack on western democracies since around 2012, how do you know we haven't already been under attack by the Russians, through the funding of groups and through (what we now know about their hacking/bot capability) social media ?

Varadkar is clearly in possession of intel that you and I aren't.

Thomas__.

seamus wrote: »

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And Crimea is probably the limit of his ambitions.

That makes me chuckle a little bit, because it sounds a lot like the things that poor Neville Chamberlain continually told the British parliament in the run up to WWII.

Putin grew up in the USSR. He was a fully integrated member of the Soviet military, and a highly loyal KGB agent of the Soviet Union.

It would be a mistake to assume that Putin desires anything less than the reintegration of former Soviet states into the Russian federation.

From his point of view, these are Russian territories that have been stolen - they were Russian when he was born and through his entire childhood and early adulthood.

To say that his ambitions "probably" end at Crimea sounds more like blind hope than reason.

That is just partly right because the Crimea was 'tranferred' by Krushev to the Ukraine in 1954

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

As for the main part of your post, I agree with you.

seamus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And Crimea is probably the limit of his ambitions.

That makes me chuckle a little bit, because it sounds a lot like the things that poor Neville Chamberlain continually told the British parliament in the run up to WWII.

Putin grew up in the USSR. He was a fully integrated member of the Soviet military, and a highly loyal KGB agent of the Soviet Union.

It would be a mistake to assume that Putin desires anything less than the reintegration of former Soviet states into the Russian federation.

From his point of view, these are Russian territories that have been stolen - they were Russian when he was born and through his entire childhood and early adulthood.

To say that his ambitions "probably" end at Crimea sounds more like blind hope than reason.

[Deleted User]

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Have we ever expelled diplomats before?

Donnacha Ó Beacháin of DCU was on Morning Ireland this morning and he noted that Ireland was 'the last EEC country to establish diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union.' and mentioned the following precedents for former expulsions.

1983: Garret Fitzgerald expelled 3 Russian diplomats 'ostensibly for espionage'.

2010: Russian diplomat expelled 'because An Garda believed that they were cloning the passports of applicants for Russian visas and they were using them for espionage in the United States'

Also, on one of the past papers for my LC decades ago, the question was What country objected to Ireland joining the United Nations? Answer: USSR (I remember it because it was the only question our brilliant history teacher didn't know the answer to)

[Deleted User]

Jacko753 wrote: »

We didn't expel anyone when Britain bombed Dublin and monaghan, no because Britain are actually dangerous whereas Russia are not to us that's why Fine Gael are getting so brave because there is no real threat.

Fine Gael who ordered the Gardai to end an investigation into the biggest mass murder in the States history after just 3 months, because any politicians in Ireland who speak out against Britain the UVF will mysteriously put a bomb under your car the next day.

100% there. The paid mouthpieces of British intelligence in Independent Newspapers and RTÉ Current Affairs department (particularly in the 1980s; we all know who they are at this stage), as well as in the FG-Labour coalition government of which the notorious Paddy Cooney of Fine Gael was Minister for Justice, since August 1969 will do their best to deflect from the extent to which the British state has subverted the Irish state, including to the extent of colluding with loyalist paramilitaries in the murder of Irish citizens.

The following is a very clear example of the British state subverting democracy in Ireland - yet, never were members of the British diplomatic corp expelled from this state. Why? Because that would have taken genuine courage from an Irish government. To say this is in no way to oppose the expulsion of the Russians: personally, the Russians with their settler-colonialism in adjacent countries and support for self-declared "Russian" separatist movements in Ukraine and elsewhere are soul mates of the British state and its activities in Ireland against the native Irish since 1609. Striking similarities right there, screaming at anybody who wants to open their eyes.

On 1 December 1972, when two separate car bombs exploded in Eden Quay and Sackville Place, Dáil Éireann was debating a bill to amend the Offences Against the State Act which would enact stricter measures against the Provisional IRA and other paramilitary groups. As a result of the two bombings, which killed two men and wounded 131, the Dáil voted for the amendment, which introduced special emergency powers to combat the IRA. It is believed that the 26 November and 1 December bombings were executed to influence the outcome of the voting. Irish Supreme Court Justice Henry Barron commissioned an official inquiry into the bombings. The findings were published in a report in November 2004. (Source: 1972 & 1973 Dublin bombings)

Elmer Blooker

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Does anybody really honk Putin lost the election? That he doesn’t have the support of most of the population?

The Russian people had a look at EU/US sponsored "democracy" in action next door in Ukraine, it appears they didn't want to live in a country with no one in control, mob rule, paramilitaries marching in the streets commemorating Nazis, corruption ten times worse than it was before the coup, the economy in ruins and the country now the property of the IMF.
A good move by Russians voting for strong leadership and political stability from outside interference.

dermo888

Well to be honest, I'd be happy if the pair of them wiped each other out. They are as bad as each other. Merely that I've such an intense loathing of any kind of interference of religion and state to the point I'm a bit crazy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

dermo888 wrote: »

They should have given them the freedom of Dublin for that stunt. Blowing up anyone who supports Sharia Law is all fair and fine by me.

Bit of a dual standard there bob. In the war between Israel and Hamas I have no horse in the race so it would be great if a foreign country didn’t steal my passports. I believe the Americans have used it too.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mumha wrote: »

Bit of an understatement there ! A murderous thug and totalitarian dictator, who just fixed his latest election "victory".

The majority of EU countries are supporting this. Do try get a second eye.

Does anybody really honk Putin lost the election? That he doesn’t have the support of most of the population?

ChikiChiki

Ireland, the kind of country that is significant enough and an easy target for Russia to pull some stunt being strategically perfect but also insignificant enough for our EU partners to give too much a damn about if push came to shove.

I'll say it again, Leo was foolish to act on this. Trying to be act big fella alongside Macron et al.

dermo888

They should have given them the freedom of Dublin for that stunt. Blowing up anyone who supports Sharia Law is all fair and fine by me.

TheValeyard

IngazZagni wrote: »

The last time it happened was to an Israeli diplomat in 2010 over the assassination of a Hamas member by Mossad who forged Irish passports to disguise themselves.

Remember that. Didnt they gain access to our passport machines or something and used it to forge a few, then, blow up a Hamas leader in Dubai?

lifeandtimes

Odhinn wrote: »

Course we will. Reality hasn't gotten in the way before, so why would it now?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ireland-is-now-a-fullyfledged-participant-in-modern-cold-war-as-varadkar-says-we-cant-be-neutral-36751533.html

"Varadkar says we can't be neutral in a cold war"

Really don't think that's his f**king call to make to be honest

Its the Irish people's to make.

Words like that will leave us open to retaliation

Zebra3

Jacko753 wrote: »

I always wondered why Haughey abandoned his Republican ideals and started sucking up to the British so suddenly.

If only Russia adopted some of Britain's tactics their diplomats wouldn't be getting expelled from Ireland.

The only thing Haughey was into was himself. Cheated on his wife, stole from his mate.

Him having ideals? Sure he was FF!!!

blanch152

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Someone should tell them that then.
Do you honestly think the Tories and the Brexiteers give 2 sh1tes about us in Eire.... I mean they have such a brilliant track record of upright behaviour in Anglo Irish affairs and International politics over many centuries!
Putin is no hero, but what are we doing sticking our oar in, such a load of crap. We have no business imo sticking our noses in this, it's part of an Anglo - Russian spat, that is acting as a proxy for a NATO-EU expansion policy vs perceived Russian expansionist policy.
I have no idea what happened in Salisbury, but neither has any of us. It's as likely to have been perpetrated by the British forces as the Russians to be honest, who knows,but I certainly wouldn't be taking Boris and the Home Office's word at face value.
Have we a choice anyway more though, is this a part of the PENSO club we joined last year?

A very apt username.

Let us look at this from the Irish perspective. All foreign policy actions should be guided by what a country needs.

Foreign Policy Priority Number 1: Reverse Brexit

This is a fairly unlikely objective, but is still the number one priority. When you view the Salisbury incident through that prism, then there is only one option: show the UK that European solidarity is valuable and they are throwing a lot away by leaving the EU. Result: Expel diplomat

Foreign Policy Priority Number 2: If Brexit can't be reversed, get the EU to support us to deliver a soft Brexit and maintain open communication with the UK.

Once again, viewed through this prism, the answer and result are the same as Number 1

Foreign Policy Priority Number 3: There is none, the first two are too important.

Now, so long as we are not being asked to do something ethically revolting, we have to pay heed to the above. We should only act in Ireland's interests. Clearly, this is a time when we need to act.

If we learned anything from the Malvinas disaster, when Haughey made a really stupid decision, there is no point dying on your principles. Anglo-Irish relations were set back by a decade, and despite Garret's best attempts, it wasn't until Albert came along that we managed to make progress in solving the North.

mulbot

Mumha wrote: »

Research for yourself, Putin is behind it all. Bannon, Trump etc were conveniently useful idiots.

I have,also I've followed the research from other more qualified people,still no link

Creol1

IngazZagni wrote: »

The last time it happened was to an Israeli diplomat in 2010 over the assassination of a Hamas member by Mossad who forged Irish passports to disguise themselves.

A Russian diplomat was also expelled the following year for similar reasons, i.e., passport fraud.

Mumha

mulbot wrote: »

Don't you mean Steve Bannon,Donald Trump etc. Putin(afaik) hasn't been connected in any way.

Research for yourself, Putin is behind it all. Bannon, Trump etc were conveniently useful idiots.

Mumha

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Someone should tell them that then.
Do you honestly think the Tories and the Brexiteers give 2 sh1tes about us in Eire.... I mean they have such a brilliant track record of upright behaviour in Anglo Irish affairs and International politics over many centuries!
Putin is no hero, but what are we doing sticking our oar in, such a load of crap. We have no business imo sticking our noses in this, it's part of an Anglo - Russian spat, that is acting as a proxy for a NATO-EU expansion policy vs perceived Russian expansionist policy.
I have no idea what happened in Salisbury, but neither has any of us. It's as likely to have been perpetrated by the British forces as the Russians to be honest, who knows,but I certainly wouldn't be taking Boris and the Home Office's word at face value.
Have we a choice anyway more though, is this a part of the PENSO club we joined last year?

Bit of an understatement there ! A murderous thug and totalitarian dictator, who just fixed his latest election "victory".

The majority of EU countries are supporting this. Do try get a second eye.

IngazZagni

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Have we ever expelled diplomats before?

The last time it happened was to an Israeli diplomat in 2010 over the assassination of a Hamas member by Mossad who forged Irish passports to disguise themselves.

mulbot

Mumha wrote: »

Facts, they're called facts. You're fooling no one.

People who voted Brexit, voted for a variety of reasons, not least the £350m that was supposedly going to go to the NHS, which didn't get beyond the following day before the traitor Farage admitted that it wasn't going to happen, and those in the deprived areas like South Wales, South west and North of England who only found out afterwards that they actually got a lot of help from the EU regional fund. The truth will come out in time about Cambridge Analytica, Farage and the Putin link.

Don't you mean Steve Bannon,Donald Trump etc. Putin(afaik) hasn't been connected in any way.

Mumha

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s a wall of text there. But it’s nonsense. Hungary is firmly within NATO. That’s part of the problem as far as Russia is concerned - the expansion east of NATO.

Facts, they're called facts.

You're fooling no one.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

People who voted Brexit meant it. If FB campaigns worked they would work on the young and urban not the old and rural.

People who voted Brexit, voted for a variety of reasons, not least the £350m that was supposedly going to go to the NHS, which didn't get beyond the following day before the traitor Farage admitted that it wasn't going to happen, and those in the deprived areas like South Wales, South west and North of England who only found out afterwards that they actually got a lot of help from the EU regional fund. The truth will come out in time about Cambridge Analytica, Farage and the Putin link.

ArchXStanton

Mumha wrote: »

You're slow with this, and as many times they can say no, but here in a democracy you can piss people off, and they'll vote you out. I accept it doesn't work like that where you come from.

What about the French and Dutch who had their referendums ignored? Or the architect of the Lisbon treaty on record as saying they deliberately made it unreadable so government's could sell it to their people better and put off any calls for referendums on it... Democracy is just a word the EU uses but doesn't believe in...

There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties - Juncker

Elmer Blooker

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Have we ever expelled diplomats before?

....... only when we are ordered to.

Mumha

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

As many times as needed, until they get it right.

You're slow with this, and as many times they can say no, but here in a democracy you can piss people off, and they'll vote you out. I accept it doesn't work like that where you come from.

Billy86

mulbot wrote: »

Exports to Russia were over e700 million in 2014! Hardly little

That amounts to about 0.9% of our total exports (€74bn in 2015), or about 4.25% of the exports we send to the UK (€16.5bn). It puts them just below the likes of the Czechs or UAE with us, and just above the likes of Turkey or Romania.