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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Itziger

davedanon wrote: »

Itziger wrote: »

Any other sub 3 heroes? Especially first timers...

Guy in my club went from 3:04 to 2:49

Doesn't count m8. If he's not a Boardsie.

davedanon

Itziger wrote: »

Any other sub 3 heroes? Especially first timers...

Guy in my club went from 3:04 to 2:49

Itziger

Any other sub 3 heroes? Especially first timers...

kerrylad1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well lads I hope you're all raising a glass in celebration with goals met. If not then lessons learnt for the next crack at it. A few mates ran and all did well. How did it go?

Withcheeseplease,did a sub 3 again,I'm looking forward to the report.

squinn2912

Well lads I hope you're all raising a glass in celebration with goals met. If not then lessons learnt for the next crack at it. A few mates ran and all did well. How did it go?

squinn2912

finisklin wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

What pace is that session at? 3x4m

Careful I am not quite at the 3X4m level yet. Though I will take the complement.....:pac:

It was at marathon pace....

Sounds like a really good session. I don't run much at MP. I do 6 building up to 10 at MP minus 20ish seconds and then intervals and the rest of my week is 45-60 seconds slower than MP

finisklin

squinn2912 wrote: »

What pace is that session at? 3x4m

Careful I am not quite at the 3X4m level yet. Though I will take the complement.....:pac:

It was at marathon pace....

squinn2912

What pace is that session at? 3x4m

finisklin

noelearly wrote: »

Perfect tactics. No matter how fresh you feel don't deviate from that plan. If you save your energy I'm the first half the 2nd half will just fall into place.

Cheers Noel....not sure how it will go though....the anticipation is driving me nuts. Your right in saying run how you feel and be independent of the pacers. It worked for me last year with a marathon PB. Did a really fast 7-8 miles which inspired me along with the conditions and sustained it. Didn't dwell on pacers etc otherwise I would have been well back.....

Being overly focussed on pacers can take away from your running so my aim is to use as a guide and not to get bunched in.

I did Daniels 2Q program which I had to tweak. I wasn't up for the 5m X 3 with 800m easy so did it slightly different for the 12m sessions - 3m X 4 with 800m easy. I found it suited where I was at and got more out of it. The 5m X 3 would have floored me.

Roll on Sunday.....

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

Haha I was like that until I got rinced out twice in 2015/16. Then I went to a rigid plan and it worked. This time around I have been injured all summer so am missing out and it's frustrating the life out of me. I'm back running well again though thankfully.
I'd love to do a marathon on feel at some point like that. Be interesting to see how you go. I did something like it once in 2011 when I did 2 in a month. The first I went out too hard and blew up, second I was going for sub3 for a while and then about 6 miles in felt that tired empty feeling in my legs and pulled it back a bit. Finished in 3:12 though that time so it wasn't a bad run. I was very new to it all then though and I've learned the hard way to have fear/respect!

Thankfully I haven't had a bad experience in any of my 4 marathons so far, I've got my target in each albeit they were relatively modest in the start. I'm not going to fret about DCM if I blow up. That's what I keep telling myself anyway.

squinn2912

Haha I was like that until I got rinced out twice in 2015/16. Then I went to a rigid plan and it worked. This time around I have been injured all summer so am missing out and it's frustrating the life out of me. I'm back running well again though thankfully.
I'd love to do a marathon on feel at some point like that. Be interesting to see how you go. I did something like it once in 2011 when I did 2 in a month. The first I went out too hard and blew up, second I was going for sub3 for a while and then about 6 miles in felt that tired empty feeling in my legs and pulled it back a bit. Finished in 3:12 though that time so it wasn't a bad run. I was very new to it all then though and I've learned the hard way to have fear/respect!

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

Ha. I'd thought we'd drawn a line under this but yes you are right. The point I was making was a cautionary one about starting out too hard. If anything all the WRs were achieved by pushing conservatively first half and then putting a bit more pace into the second. PBs are usually the same. Very rarely does it seem to work out well if you push hard early on. I got my wording wrong.
I hope that works out for you ok, fair play going for the sub3 after Berlin (how did it go?) so soon. I'd be very wary dropping the hammer at halfway I'd save it until 18-20 but everyone has their own tactics.

Don't mind me I'm usually full of bravado on the lead up to these things. WHEN I say I'll drop the hammer it's probably wishful thinking, Dublin is just a bonus for me now, only entered when entry was nearly full In case things when astray in Berlin. I actually intend to run on pure feel, have no real target in mind.

squinn2912

noelearly wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well that's not great form if they do.

If they're volunteering to provide a service then that's wonderful but that doesn't mean they are above criticism. I've unofficially paced people, paying the entry fee, and when I did that I planned to run at an even pace throughout. My advice from the 4 DCMs I have done is to let them go because they go out harder than you need to. Every running world record broken was achieved by running evenly. If the elite follow that then there's a lesson there.

Well that's simply not true, world records are done by negative splits. Radcliffe, Keitany, Kimetto, Kipchoge and myself have all had Pbs this way.

To the poster that has doubts about it, I'll be around the 3 hour mark myself for Dcm, I intend going 1.30 for the first half, then I'm gonna drop the hammer, most likely I'll drop off and hit a brick wall around 21 miles because I'm only after Berlin.

From my experience go on how you feel during the race, don't rely on pacers because everybody is different. I found myself constantly looking at my watch and expending energy worrying if the pacer knew what he was up to, In Berlin they flew outta the traps and I let them off. Look at your watch at 5k intervals and have that as your pacer. Write done what spilt times you need and adjust your pace as such.

Ha. I'd thought we'd drawn a line under this but yes you are right. The point I was making was a cautionary one about starting out too hard. If anything all the WRs were achieved by pushing conservatively first half and then putting a bit more pace into the second. PBs are usually the same. Very rarely does it seem to work out well if you push hard early on. I got my wording wrong.
I hope that works out for you ok, fair play going for the sub3 after Berlin (how did it go?) so soon. I'd be very wary dropping the hammer at halfway I'd save it until 18-20 but everyone has their own tactics.

noelearly

finisklin wrote: »

Start line is on the horizon and with a small injury blip in Sept, have averaged decent miles (68 pw) over the last 4 months to have a crack at sub 3.

I have found the responses to the pacers and whether to run with them or slightly ahead useful. Aim is to reach half way at 1.30.30 and see if I can push ahead if I can. The last 6 miles at 40 mins will be a big ask.

Overall, looking forward to the day and hoping weather is dry with minimal wind. That will be a bonus I am sure.

Perfect tactics. No matter how fresh you feel don't deviate from that plan. If you save your energy I'm the first half the 2nd half will just fall into place.

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well that's not great form if they do.

If they're volunteering to provide a service then that's wonderful but that doesn't mean they are above criticism. I've unofficially paced people, paying the entry fee, and when I did that I planned to run at an even pace throughout. My advice from the 4 DCMs I have done is to let them go because they go out harder than you need to. Every running world record broken was achieved by running evenly. If the elite follow that then there's a lesson there.

Well that's simply not true, world records are done by negative splits. Radcliffe, Keitany, Kimetto, Kipchoge and myself have all had Pbs this way.

To the poster that has doubts about it, I'll be around the 3 hour mark myself for Dcm, I intend going 1.30 for the first half, then I'm gonna drop the hammer, most likely I'll drop off and hit a brick wall around 21 miles because I'm only after Berlin.

From my experience go on how you feel during the race, don't rely on pacers because everybody is different. I found myself constantly looking at my watch and expending energy worrying if the pacer knew what he was up to, In Berlin they flew outta the traps and I let them off. Look at your watch at 5k intervals and have that as your pacer. Write done what spilt times you need and adjust your pace as such.

squinn2912

finisklin wrote: »

Start line is on the horizon and with a small injury blip in Sept, have averaged decent miles (68 pw) over the last 4 months to have a crack at sub 3.

I have found the responses to the pacers and whether to run with them or slightly ahead useful. Aim is to reach half way at 1.30.30 and see if I can push ahead if I can. The last 6 miles at 40 mins will be a big ask.

Overall, looking forward to the day and hoping weather is dry with minimal wind. That will be a bonus I am sure.

Sounds like a sensible plan. First 6 miles are quite tough so get into your rhythm and try to relax. When you have long downhills I'd advise you to glide and allow the hill to help you. Be ready for the hill on 22. It's nothing too amazing but a little climb for 45 seconds and then you fight with everything you have for the last few miles. If the pacers are in view then you're ok. All the best with it and make sure to let us all know how you do. Wish I could run it myself!

finisklin

Start line is on the horizon and with a small injury blip in Sept, have averaged decent miles (68 pw) over the last 4 months to have a crack at sub 3.

I have found the responses to the pacers and whether to run with them or slightly ahead useful. Aim is to reach half way at 1.30.30 and see if I can push ahead if I can. The last 6 miles at 40 mins will be a big ask.

Overall, looking forward to the day and hoping weather is dry with minimal wind. That will be a bonus I am sure.

dna_leri

Bittertown wrote: »

Thank you so much to everyone for your opinion/advices! Didn't expect that many replies.
As I expected it seems like most think this is unlikely, but if everything goes right I may have a shot. I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

I thought the supporter part was a plus for DCM, that there were lots of people cheering etc. Is that untrue?

Things will go bad at some point. If you're not prepared to dig in you will fail.

Support will help especially at key points

squinn2912

That is a whole new perspective for me and I'm glad to hear it from source. If I put myself in the position I'd struggle with the slower pace on a race day. In my experience the pacers move out to the two sides towards the end (if they're not roaring at someone to encourage the last ounce of effort to make the time) and the applaud the runners who are in the process of reaching their holy grail.
I made that remark insensitively. There are many, many points regarding sub3 pacers and not everything can be glowing all the time. I got wrapped up on one point and I think that's been put right. No offense intended but I'll think a bit harder in future. Anyone who read my whole point I hope will understand it was encouraging with some caution based on my own use or poor use of the pacers in the past.
I'm on this thread to contribute, to advise where I can and to pick up tips for myself

davedanon

squinn2912 wrote: »

I appreciate that comment.
Folks let me apologise for the language used - terrible isn't an appropriate word to use for guys who in so many cases make the difference between a runner getting a sub3 and being disappointed. On my first in Dublin I chatted to one of them beforehand and high fived another coming to the finish line.
I feel that my contribution was encouraging and positive based on the question put. It was meant to be so.
A valuable comment is made above when advice is given to people to avoid sticking to pacers like glue and to run their own race. That is the kind of point I wanted to make, but accept that my words were chosen poorly. I understand that there are those who feel offended on behalf of the pacers.
For everyone gunning for the sub3 next week I hope it goes well and that if you use the pacers that they are of benefit to you. Go n-éirí libh.

That's absolutely fair enough. I see the point you were attempting to make, and ironically enough I would agree with it. I find running with pacers offputting too - something to do with becoming fixated on the effort of others around me, and finding it draining somehow: don't quite understand it myself - and I tend to avoid them. But you stated that they run too fast as a general rule, and having done a pacing stint at last year's DCM myself I wanted to put something on record.

It's not nearly as 'easy' as some might think. Sure, the 4.20 pace of nearly 10 minutes a mile was, on paper, not a problem for me. And, aerobically speaking, it wasn't. That wasn't the only consideration, though. Physically it was 'tiring' for me having to adapt to a slower rhythm, and one thing that slower runners have more experience of than I is.......being on their feet for a long time. It does make a difference. Mick Clohessy passed me at a gentle jog (for him) yesterday in Raheny, and it occurred to me that his 'longest long run' can't be any more than 2 hours in marathon training (open to correction on that). How would he handle a 5 hour marathon, I wonder?

Anyway, while we did have to make a small pace adjustment at the end of DCM last year in order to bring our charges in at the appointed time, it took a certain amount of effort and concentration on all our parts to keep on track as much as possible. It certainly gave me a valuable insight into the pacer's lot.

robinph

ooter wrote: »

If you are happy to stop then absolutely go for it and best of luck with it.

I'd say more if you are happy to drag yourself around the last 6 miles in a world of pain then go for it. But if you are happy to stop then don't.

If you begin with the intention of stopping then you will. It will hurt a lot at some point regardless of if you are on target and having a great run or not. The last thing you need to have floating around in your head though is the idea of getting the bus back to the finish. Stopping is not an option that should enter your thoughts.

opus

Bittertown wrote: »

Thank you so much to everyone for your opinion/advices! Didn't expect that many replies.
As I expected it seems like most think this is unlikely, but if everything goes right I may have a shot. I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

Best of luck! I tried that once after a 10m race suggested I had a shout at sub 3 & amazingly it worked out by ~6 seconds but who's counting

It's only this year that I realised what a fantastic pacing service DCM is providing, I run a good few marathons in Germany and you'd never see such a range of times provided. Kudos to all the volunteers who do it.

My own job is moral support for a friend who's hoping to get < 3:10 so gave him a choice of sticking with the pace group or else sticking with me as I plan to start a little slower & speed up as things progress.

ooter

Bittertown wrote: »

I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

If you are happy to stop then absolutely go for it and best of luck with it.

squinn2912

Djoucer wrote: »

Think people are picking squinn up wrong.

Pacers in general can be terrible as you're always running someone else's race. They may be stronger/weaker on hills so any advantage you might have is gone. They may want to run even pace splits while others think that's a wrong tactic given the course.

When they feel a low, you have to run that low with them.

You'll also have to run with a large group which can be a pain in the arse.

So yeah, pacers can be terrible to run with. That's not to take away anything from the pacers themselves. I certainly wouldn't fancy the pressure of brining a load of people across the line in a certain time.

I appreciate that comment.
Folks let me apologise for the language used - terrible isn't an appropriate word to use for guys who in so many cases make the difference between a runner getting a sub3 and being disappointed. On my first in Dublin I chatted to one of them beforehand and high fived another coming to the finish line.
I feel that my contribution was encouraging and positive based on the question put. It was meant to be so.
A valuable comment is made above when advice is given to people to avoid sticking to pacers like glue and to run their own race. That is the kind of point I wanted to make, but accept that my words were chosen poorly. I understand that there are those who feel offended on behalf of the pacers.
For everyone gunning for the sub3 next week I hope it goes well and that if you use the pacers that they are of benefit to you. Go n-éirí libh.

Bittertown

fletch wrote: »

Make sure to come back and let us know how you get on....really hope you can pull it off! Best of luck

I sure will! Hopefully I won't reply here before noon or something... Cheers!

fletch

Bittertown wrote: »

Thank you so much to everyone for your opinion/advices! Didn't expect that many replies.
As I expected it seems like most think this is unlikely, but if everything goes right I may have a shot. I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

Make sure to come back and let us know how you get on....really hope you can pull it off! Best of luck

robinph

Bittertown wrote: »

I thought the supporter part was a plus for DCM, that there were lots of people cheering etc. Is that untrue?

The support is good for DCM.

Between the constant noise of cheering that you get at London with hardly anywhere on course to be able to hear yourself think and highly unlikely to be able to spot any personal supporters out on course, or running up and down the side of a deserted hilside for hours with just yourself and a couple of sheep/ goats/ cows/ horses for company, Dublin is a good level of support.

You know that they are out to support the runners, rather than have pint and listen to a band, and you can spot individuals in the crowd and they can spot individual runners.

OOnegative

Bittertown wrote: »

Thank you so much to everyone for your opinion/advices! Didn't expect that many replies.
As I expected it seems like most think this is unlikely, but if everything goes right I may have a shot. I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

I thought the supporter part was a plus for DCM, that there were lots of people cheering etc. Is that untrue?

Nope, i was generalising with the crowd comment, DCM supporters are excellent by all accounts and worth a few seconds with the constant encouragement.

Bittertown

Thank you so much to everyone for your opinion/advices! Didn't expect that many replies.
As I expected it seems like most think this is unlikely, but if everything goes right I may have a shot. I think I will go for it, if things go bad I'm thinking of just stopping instead of finishing and suffering for the last 10 miles.

OOnegative wrote: »

DCM can be ****e weather wise, course wise, supporter wise.

I thought the supporter part was a plus for DCM, that there were lots of people cheering etc. Is that untrue?

robinph

Depends on if you are viewing the pacers as being someone that you need to stick to like glue in order to get around in the required time, or as the equivalent of the red line they show floating above the swimming pool indicating the world record pace in the Olympics and you just need to cross the finish line infront of. Dublin does have some spots where if running your own pacing it makes sense to bank a couple of extra seconds for making it up a hill on pace, but it's really minimal.

Start from 10 seconds or so behind the pacers, it's too crowded to follow them closely, by half way the pack will have thinned a bit so hide on the back of it, gradually pull infront of the pacers from half way if you're feeling good, always hide behind someone else where possible, make sure the pacers don't overtake you. The pacers should be thought of more as a timing guide as to if you are ahead or behind schedule, not so much as run this speed for this section and this speed for this section.