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Should people who got less than 500 points in the leaving even allowed to vote?

marcus001

How much more competent would our political class be if they were handpicked and held to account by the cognitive elite?

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Ficheall

I got more than 500 points in the Leaving. I have more important things to think about than which crooks I would prefer to run the country.

Badly Drunk Boy

marcus001 wrote: »

High intelligence is correlated with higher income but the average wage for someone with an IQ of 115 is still no more than 50,000 as far as I know. Once you start getting into higher figures the correlation is not as strong between intelligence and income.

Higher income isn't what everybody wants. I did the Leaving 26 years ago, I think the second or third year a version of the current points system started, and I got in the 400s. I got a C in Pass English, even though I know I've a better grasp of the language than most friends who did well in Honours English.

I've also got an IQ in the 140s but an income in the higher €40,000s (but I don't live in Dublin so I've just paid off my mortgage a week ago). Money doesn't bother me. I'm not a superficial social climber who needs to show how great I am, and I don't want a career path that I have to follow. If I'm in the same position when I retire, that's grand. If I decide to change, that's grand too.

I've often been told in work that I'm wasted in the job I do, but I think part of my job is to educate others (and I'm very easy-going and tolerant with people, making it easier for them to learn). Isn't it a pity you don't deem me worthy of a vote? (I know you're just trolling, though.)

qwerty ui op

So you'd have millionaires, CEOs, past and current ministers not quiet making the grade yet 16/17 year old boy and girls are best to decide for all of us.

myshirt

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.

*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

[Deleted User]

myshirt wrote: »

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.

*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

Someone has been watching Ken Robinson videos

Honestly though, your spot on.

OneOfThem Stumbled

marcus001 wrote: »

It is a fact that university grades are highly correlated with IQ and industriousness. I'm not sure if the same is said to be true of secondary school grades but I'm sure that any study into that would be highly controversial.

I've got a 1.1 degree at university, but barely managed 400 points in the Leaving Certificate. I'm not sure your initial proposition is a good one.

NinjaTruncs

OP why set the threshold at 500 points? Why not 600, people who get 600 points have clearly worked harder and by your reasoning are more intelligent than those who get 500. Should the subjects one does be considered too? Are people who do Maths, Applied Maths, Physics or Chemistry more worthy than those from Art or Music?

However, you are falling into the same all trap almost everyone, which perhaps highlights you're not worthy to vote, you're coming with a solution to a problem, if it is a problem, without first clearly defining the problem. Perhaps that's simply the nature of the internet, and particularly AH, if you actually wanted a discussion on your idea you would have put this thread into the politics forum.

trixiebust

Why are the majority of the threads here clickbaity nonsense? Maybe I should start a thread asking the same

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a perfect measure but its the best one we have. Not many people who get below 500 could be considered "smart".

That's an absurd notion. By today's points system, I had below 500 points. I now have a Masters and Doctorates. Should I have been barred from voting all these years?
Educational achievement is by no means a measure of intelligence, ability nor suitability to decide on the fate of our country. Indeed, many are educated beyond their intelligence.

irishgrover

Why are we even feeding this stupidity by debating it as if it has any merit. The op is clearly trolling, if not, he is clearly suffering from some form of retardation...

ressem

The Seanad is formed to follow this model, as a limiter on government elected through the popular vote + the subsequent horsetrading.
6 senators are elected by university graduates. Is there evidence to suggest that their contributions outshine their peers?
They seem a mixed bag.

I'd suggest that excessive party loyalty is more problematic than their leaving cert score. That applies to voters and candidates.
University based political activists around the world can be seen supporting the whole gamut of extreme politics, all of which would be hurtful to put into effect.

jamesbere

irishgrover wrote: »

Why are we even feeding this stupidity by debating it as if it has any merit. The op is clearly trolling, if not, he is clearly suffering from some form of retardation...

I'd say he thinks he's better than most people.

Spider Web

myshirt wrote: »

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.

*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

Few digs at the public sector, a mention of the feminist agenda, and a dash of reverse snobbery, not to mention some good old "I'm different though, it's others who are stupid" elements.

And extra points for misuse of "we".

Good going.

pumpkin4life

Spider Web wrote: »

Few digs at the public sector, a mention of the feminist agenda, and a dash of reverse snobbery, not to mention some good old "I'm different though, it's others who are stupid" elements.

And extra points for misuse of "we".

Good going.

No he's right.

The school system we have here and in Europe is a relatively new invention; stemming from Prussia in the 1850s, where the intent was to make the sons of factory workers better factory workers.

You're not meant to learn really in Irish education. You're meant to be put into this system whereby you become compatible with office work, university work and public sector work: ie, go along to get along and be compatible with "respectable" society and vote for Fianna Fail/Fianna Gael and watch the All Ireland Final and read Fintan o Toole for the next bit of cutting edge analysis on society.

Is that a bad thing? Depends. Possibly, possibly not.

As for the feminist agenda: that's a bit bum alright. I think it's more the fact that as more women join your organization, the more go along to get along it becomes.

Gunmonkey

jamesbere wrote: »

I'd say he thinks he's better than most people.

More likely the past 2-3 weeks of his Mammy going "Oh Marcus001 is so smart, he got 500 points in the LC!" to everyone she knows has inflated his little ego.

Either that or...have the colleges started up again? Usually the first week or two you get the likes of these, kids who have their first class of philosophy or social science and now think they are the next Socrates or Nitzsche and know how to solve all the worlds ills!

Wanderer2010

The OP isn't so smart him/herself seeing as they left out the word "be" in the title.

Just for that OP, I am judging you forevermore as an inferior and intellectual reject who can never contribute anything positive towards society.

jamesbere

Gunmonkey wrote: »

More likely the past 2-3 weeks of his Mammy going "Oh Marcus001 is so smart, he got 500 points in the LC!" to everyone she knows has inflated his little ego.

Either that or...have the colleges started up again? Usually the first week or two you get the likes of these, kids who have their first class of philosophy or social science and now think they are the next Socrates or Nitzsche and know how to solve all the worlds ills!

Wasn't Nietzsche in love with his sister

Spider Web

pumpkin4life wrote: »

No he's right.

The school system we have here and in Europe is a relatively new invention; stemming from Prussia in the 1850s, where the intent was to make the sons of factory workers better factory workers.

You're not meant to learn really in Irish education. You're meant to be put into this system whereby you become compatible with office work, university work and public sector work: ie, go along to get along and be compatible with "respectable" society and vote for Fianna Fail/Fianna Gael and watch the All Ireland Final and read Fintan o Toole for the next bit of cutting edge analysis on society.

Is that a bad thing? Depends. Possibly, possibly not.

As for the feminist agenda: that's a bit bum alright. I think it's more the fact that as more women join your organization, the more go along to get along it becomes.

I don't know whether it's right or wrong - what I do know is it's having a go at the public sector/teachers and it contains reverse snobbery nonsense like "I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+" despite the fact that HE got 500 points, so HE complied with this system of which he is so critical... but he's different of course.

It's an arrogant post like the opening post, just coming from a different angle.

People overthink the education system - I'm not sure we are as easily programmed as some like to say. There are the provincial, very conformist societies still, but it's a combination of factors that are holding these up, not just the education system.

spurious

Depends when they did the Leaving.

mynamejeff

ever read the novel starship troopers? and to a lesser extent watch the film

the premise is that citizenship has to be earned.
anyone over 18 can try for it but you must complete a term of national service be it military, social care or some hazardous nationally beneficial duty.
Only then can it be seen that you have the benefit of the many over self benefit and is suitable for inclusion in a democratic process.

Its an interesting book right wing in nature corporal punishment is used and personal responsibility is a very important concept.

i didn't get 500 points but i know plenty of people who did that shouldn't be allowed to vote.

TheBiz

I got over 400, having been told something along the lines of 'waster/never amount to anything', because I did not study.. and I tweaked with my subject choices to require the least amount of effort while still getting the points i needed.

I've seen some idiots get over 500 points.

If it was the case whereby you could only vote if you achieved over 500 points, I think voters would be very easily influenced, a lot of people that I know who got over 500 points got those results because it was expected by their parents (you could argue this would put students from Asian families/immigrant families at an advantage as they tend to value education more than us/Westerners)

It could/would also lead to a huge divide, you've got the people who vote on behalf of everyone else, and then you've got everyone else..

Not to mention points/the effort put into the Leaving would go up drastically, as would entry points and requirements, students would choose the easiest subjects/ones with a lot of project work to simply get above 500 points, making the whole thing essentially pointless.

On top of that the students who were sick on the day, have severe anxiety issues, family issues or who simply put, are not academically inclined would be left behind.. you can't put that much emphasis on couple of days worth of exams, rightly there shouldn't be as much emphasis on it as there already is.

The Leaving is already enough of a waste of time don't put more importance on it.

LittleMuppet

gordongekko wrote: »

Are all the people who got less than 500 points as touchy about it as you are?

Excuse me? I'm not touchy about it all. The LC is nothing. I'm happy with where I got in life through my own hard work. I don't care about what anyone gets in their leaving, as I said it's nothing. I don't base peoples intelligence on how many points they got or what degrees they have, I base it on who they are as people, their opinions, how they treat others etc.

TheBiz

LittleMuppet wrote: »

Excuse me? I'm not touchy about it all. The LC is nothing. I'm happy with where I got in life through my own hard work. I don't care about what anyone gets in their leaving, as I said it's nothing. I don't base peoples intelligence on how many points they got or what degrees they have, I base it on who they are as people, their opinions, how they treat others etc.

The only thing you can base off of someones LC points is the importance they placed on the Leaving Cert.

LittleMuppet

Gunmonkey wrote: »

More likely the past 2-3 weeks of his Mammy going "Oh Marcus001 is so smart, he got 500 points in the LC!" to everyone she knows has inflated his little ego.

Either that or...have the colleges started up again? Usually the first week or two you get the likes of these, kids who have their first class of philosophy or social science and now think they are the next Socrates or Nitzsche and know how to solve all the worlds ills!

I've said this in previous posts in this thread. OP smacks of some little mammys boy who got his first hard on in politics 101

Corkgirl18

You're really showing your lack of intelligence with this thread.
The LC is a ridiculous measure of someone's intelligence.
I say this as a LC teacher.
There are many different types of intelligence. Unfortunately, our education system doesn't test them.

BillyBobBS

I failed the leaving because school for me was boring and a complete waste of time. I went on to run a successful business which i sold for a substantial profit a few years ago. I now work a job with zero stress for 22k a year and iv'e never been happier. My kids are healthy and im married to a woman i love more than anything else in the world.

It's a very sad reflection on society if people judge success on how one does in a state sanctioned exam. When i was an employer i never hired someone based on how they did in a leaving cert.

[Deleted User]

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

You're really showing your lack of intelligence with this thread.
The LC is a ridiculous measure of someone's intelligence.
I say this as a LC teacher.
There are many different types of intelligence. Unfortunately, our education system doesn't test them.

Exactly. For example, people with a high level of emotional intelligence are probably not given proper career directions. They would be perfect in areas that require alot of empathy to be shown such as social care.

Many many new industries have emerged over the decades and yet we still have an inflexible, out of touch , not fit for purpose, education system.

It is not any individual teachers fault, as the saying goes 'Dont hate the player - hate the game'.

pitifulgod

marcus001 wrote: »

Not really. Things like maths and accounting are more about practice and skill, intelligent people get more out of practice.

When it comes to memorisation, intelligent people can memorise more information in a shorter span of time and can crystallise far more complex knowledge.

I got 350 points, have a masters in an entirely separate area to my bachelors. A rather good job and could stroll into a new one in any country pretty easily. I read a large amount, both fiction and factual. I would be classified as an informed voter.

I retain information but struggled to engage or memorise word for word for definitions. Or rewrite an essay in English with the required interpretation. My degree is in English. So I'm not dumb and wouldn't consider a leaving cert result to reflect much. You'll also find the average lecturer thinks particularly highly of the leaving cert.

Spider Web

BillyBobBS wrote: »

I failed the leaving because school for me was boring and a complete waste of time. I went on to run a successful business which i sold for a substantial profit a few years ago. I now work a job with zero stress for 22k a year and iv'e never been happier. My kids are healthy and im married to a woman i love more than anything else in the world.

It's a very sad reflection on society if people judge success on how one does in a state sanctioned exam. When i was an employer i never hired someone based on how they did in a leaving cert.

Stories like yours of failing the leaving cert (most of us found it boring) and then going on to run a successful business are unusual. I don't think points are the be all and end all, but a person is better off passing the leaving than not doing it or failing it.

At times, it will be used to judge a person - it has to be, e.g. for them getting a job or course it's necessary.

Chuchote

It's great to know that this generation is so superbly intelligent compared to mine, when most people left school at 12. I stand back and wonder - what geniuses they've become, compared to their forerunners, dopey eejits like Brendan Behan, Sean O'Casey, WB Yeats et al, who left school in or before their teens.