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Apple Athenry data centre

weshtawake

What a great country when a couple of crank objectors can scuttle plans for a multi Euro "green" investment by one of the biggest corporations in the world. One of the objectors I note lives in Wicklow where, obviously, he would be seriously impacted by the development....not!

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CerebralCortex

Storm 10 wrote: »

And how do you know more companies will be coming to Athenry with jobs, I'm sure the majority will be delighted if it goes ahead and it will put Athenry on the map for more to come there

I think you missed DaCors point. It seems there is a perception of Apple being in Athenry i.e. brand X in my town bringing with it a sense of hope and pride for the community. The real impact could be quite negative. Careful what you wish for scenario.

The salient question is what does a data center imply for its surroundings? How many people does it need to operate? What is it's power consumption like? By what mechanism would it spur other economic growth? Do data centers require other businesses in the business in the eco system that would need to be set up there by creating new jobs. Environmental impact? For how much gain with respect to the values held by Athenry citizens.

Mrs OBumble

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You can count on one hand the amount of places that decide to set up outside the city,

Really?

Chanelle in Loughrea
Lisk in Gort
Natus Medical in Gort
Valeo in Tuam
Cambus Medical in Spiddal
Aspect in Claregalway
APOS in Clarenbridge

... that's more than one hand, and I've barely started!

the whole year inn

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I think you missed DaCors point. It seems there is a perception of Apple being in Athenry i.e. brand X in my town bringing with it a sense of hope and pride for the community. The real impact could be quite negative. Careful what you wish for scenario.

The salient question is what does a data center imply for its surroundings? How many people does it need to operate? What is it's power consumption like? By what mechanism would it spur other economic growth? Do data centers require other businesses in the business in the eco system that would need to be set up there by creating new jobs. Environmental impact? For how much gain with respect to the values held by Athenry citizens.

Those are the questions I would like answered, How many people will they employ they say 150 but is that over the course of it being built and after its set up how many people? Its a big project so there is the construction jobs but after that what are we looking at.

beardybrewer

“At the time we said that this would be a great boost to the local economy, resulting in 300 jobs over multiple phases of construction and ongoing employment in the operation of the centre with 150 technical staff to be employed on an ongoing basis,”

http://www.galwayindependent.com/news/topics/articles/2017/07/12/4142903-concern-for-apple---/

sgthighway

Long term I reckon there will be 80 to 90 people employed there. There won't be any recognised spin off for restaurants or shops because that 80 to 90 people will be spread over a 24/7 week. They will probably all start and finish at different times so you won't even notice the traffic. About a third of the jobs there will be contracted out to the likes of Kirbys who can manage the Facilities Management of it. Apple will probably send workers from another Data Center to train Junior Sys Admins to rack and cable the equipment. Thinking about it there probably won't be even a Canteen with hot meals.

nuac

sgthighway wrote: »

Long term I reckon there will be 80 to 90 people employed there. There won't be any recognised spin off for restaurants or shops because that 80 to 90 people will be spread over a 24/7 week. They will probably all start and finish at different times so you won't even notice the traffic. About a third of the jobs there will be contracted out to the likes of Kirbys who can manage the Facilities Management of it. Apple will probably send workers from another Data Center to train Junior Sys Admins to rack and cable the equipment. Thinking about it there probably won't be even a Canteen with hot meals.

80 to 90 jobs would be welcome in any community. The investment may sustain a number of families in the area - all good

stampydmonkey

nuac wrote: »

80 to 90 jobs would be welcome in any community. The investment may sustain a number of families in the area - all good

And the investment the will pay for to upgrade the power grid and gas supply would be of benefit to the local area and wider country as a whole

the whole year inn

stampydmonkey wrote: »

And the investment the will pay for to upgrade the power grid and gas supply would be of benefit to the local area and wider country as a whole

But wasn't that one of the complaints, that Apple wouldn't add anything to the grid and just take, while the tax payers would have to pay for the up grades.

Mr Starman

Irish tax payer will upgrade the grid, not Apple .....and i'd presume that will happen once Ireland recovers the 13billion in unpaid Apple taxes

Be a lot of Apple data centres in Ireland over the coming decades, that's for sure.

stampydmonkey

Mr Starman wrote: »

Irish tax payer will upgrade the grid, not Apple .....and i'd presume that will happen once Ireland recovers the 13billion in unpaid Apple taxes

Be a lot of Apple data centres in Ireland over the coming decades, that's for sure.

I know for a fact they will pay to bring the ESB supply to it and gas too for that matter as a temporary electricity generation if it goes ahead

the whole year inn

stampydmonkey wrote: »

I know for a fact they will pay to bring the ESB supply to it and gas too for that matter as a temporary electricity generation if it goes ahead

How do you know? Any source?

Atlantic Dawn

stampydmonkey wrote: »

I know for a fact they will pay to bring the ESB supply to it and gas too for that matter as a temporary electricity generation if it goes ahead

Well each house in the country is going to be giving €24.44 a year extra from October, that will help them.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bills-electricity-ireland-3520279-Jul2017/

1641

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Well each house in the country is going to be giving €24.44 a year extra from October, that will help them.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bills-electricity-ireland-3520279-Jul2017/

Whether you are for or against the Athenry development, this is irrelevant. The increase in levy (like the levy itself) is to subsidise and increase the percentage of more expensive renewables (wind, etc). Personally I think this is reasonable - but if you must blame someone then let it be "the green lobby".

J.pilkington

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Well each house in the country is going to be giving €24.44 a year extra from October, that will help them.

http://www.thejournal.ie/bills-electricity-ireland-3520279-Jul2017/

What has that got to do with the topic / discussion, seriously??

For an odd reason you have posted this very article in multiple threads on this site and in all cases it has zero relevance to the discussion on hand. Have you some vested interest? It's really weird carry on. Akin to junk mail in my opinion

Alf Veedersane

stampydmonkey wrote: »

I know for a fact they will pay to bring the ESB supply to it and gas too for that matter as a temporary electricity generation if it goes ahead

Isn't that just a substation?

They have to do that. It's not like Apple are doing it even as some sort of sop.

iwillhtfu

stampydmonkey wrote: »

And the investment the will pay for to upgrade the power grid and gas supply would be of benefit to the local area and wider country as a whole

I doubt they'll be adding anything to extreme to the network as it's goal is to be a zero carbon emission facility. The main consumer in these places is usually cooling but with the aim being zero emission I would imagine the power consumption will be kept to a minimum.

More than likely as Alf veedersane has said and additional MV substation.

It's unlikely to bring anything with it in regard to business these data centres generally remain isolated and as for coffee shops etc. Have you seen the facilities in Holly Hill? Apple tend to take care of that or at least out source but include the facilities in the design.

In any event if it does go ahead which I have on good authority it will. It'll only be the third building outside of America owned by Apple.

stampydmonkey

Power consumption for the data centres in Ireland is massive, even with them being incredibly efficient I have seen the figures for a number of them in Ireland.

Also from what we were told, if it goes ahead the ESB connection requested isn't straight forward.

Here's what someone came up with a few years ago. They can be as carbon neutral as they want but the power still has to come from somewhere.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/apple-data-centre-could-increase-irelands-electricity-consumption-by-82-2016-4

iwillhtfu

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Power consumption for the data centres in Ireland is massive, even with them being incredibly efficient I have seen the figures for a number of them in Ireland.

Yes in general demand is high. I've seen kW/kWh figures for most if not all of them in the country.

When you say it's not a straight forward connection in what sense do you mean?

[Deleted User]

Carbon neutral does not equal energy efficient.

CerebralCortex

nuac wrote: »

80 to 90 jobs would be welcome in any community. The investment may sustain a number of families in the area - all good

Again at what cost? It seems like all you can see is, "jobs", "Apple in Athenry", "shur isn't it great!". Also the few engineers needed to manage the data center don't just end up being from Athenry. I could easily speculate that a lot of the work in the data center will be automated and increasingly so.

You need to think of a data center as a large machine or engine and less like a factory.

threeball

Wasn't sure what the objection was about until I sat down and read an I interview with Daly tonight and I have to say he is right.

You have all these companies claiming to be buying renewable energy off the grid when in fact they're just buying the same as the rest of us. Then the way they cool the faculties is antiquated. They use 1000s of kw's of chillers instead of using the natural air temp on average days and using the ground on warmer days.

On top of that they should have planned to build some housing estates close to the site and use the waste heat to renewably run the houses besides dumping millions of kw to atmosphere.

These should be mandatory requirements for these developments to ensure we limit pressure on the grid and leave space for expansion and more investment in the future. What's planned now only involves us importing more oil to generate electricity to run very inefficient buildings. It's also in Apple's interest that this happens and it's not a big request. It'd actually cost less than the chillers

_Puma_

Microsoft have just acquired the licence to 100% of the energy generated from a wind farm in Kerry for their datacentres.

So the government subsidies(ie me and you) the Wind farm development, sell the licences off to to massive companies like Microsoft and Apple for a pittance. Said companies pay negligible Corporate tax and knock up a few Data centers and all the while get the locals into a frenzy with the promise of "moar jobs!!!" In the mean time Energy providers are upping the PSO levy.

All the while the real reason the likes of Apple are pushing to get this up and running is that Ireland is the "wild west" of Data protection laws in Europe currently and need to get these up and running before GDPR comes into effect across Europe next May.

the whole year inn

threeball wrote: »

Wasn't sure what the objection was about until I sat down and read an I interview with Daly tonight and I have to say he is right.

You have all these companies claiming to be buying renewable energy off the grid when in fact they're just buying the same as the rest of us. Then the way they cool the faculties is antiquated. They use 1000s of kw's of chillers instead of using the natural air temp on average days and using the ground on warmer days.

On top of that they should have planned to build some housing estates close to the site and use the waste heat to renewably run the houses besides dumping millions of kw to atmosphere.

These should be mandatory requirements for these developments to ensure we limit pressure on the grid and leave space for expansion and more investment in the future. What's planned now only involves us importing more oil to generate electricity to run very inefficient buildings. It's also in Apple's interest that this happens and it's not a big request. It'd actually cost less than the chillers

Was that online you read,would like to read that .

threeball

https://news.vice.com/story/one-man-in-a-tiny-irish-town-could-derail-apples-plans-for-europe

threeball

_Puma_ wrote: »

Microsoft have just acquired the licence to 100% of the energy generated from a wind farm in Kerry for their datacentres.

So the government subsidies(ie me and you) the Wind farm development, sell the licences off to to massive companies like Microsoft and Apple for a pittance. Said companies pay negligible Corporate tax and knock up a few Data centers and all the while get the locals into a frenzy with the promise of "moar jobs!!!" In the mean time Energy providers are upping the PSO levy.

All the while the real reason the likes of Apple are pushing to get this up and running is that Ireland is the "wild west" of Data protection laws in Europe currently and need to get these up and running before GDPR comes into effect across Europe next May.

The biggest laugh is that this increases demand on the grid so our renewable contribution to the overall demand is less which means in two years when the eu start dishing out fines we'll be bent over for millions extra and for what, maybe 10 jobs and potential power outages which will only affect average joe. All because they're too lazy/stupid to design a proper cooling system. Instead some idiot consultant recommends what hes been recommending since 1970.

JRant

threeball wrote: »

Wasn't sure what the objection was about until I sat down and read an I interview with Daly tonight and I have to say he is right.

You have all these companies claiming to be buying renewable energy off the grid when in fact they're just buying the same as the rest of us. Then the way they cool the faculties is antiquated. They use 1000s of kw's of chillers instead of using the natural air temp on average days and using the ground on warmer days.

On top of that they should have planned to build some housing estates close to the site and use the waste heat to renewably run the houses besides dumping millions of kw to atmosphere.

These should be mandatory requirements for these developments to ensure we limit pressure on the grid and leave space for expansion and more investment in the future. What's planned now only involves us importing more oil to generate electricity to run very inefficient buildings. It's also in Apple's interest that this happens and it's not a big request. It'd actually cost less than the chillers

First up, there will be no chillers used. No Data centre in Ireland uses chillers, they are just not required. This site will use adiabatic cooling/free cooling.

Second, at present data centres use 3% of the available grid power. It is also an ideal load for the grid as it is more or less constant and doesn't fluctuate widely depending on time of day.

Third, we use coal and gas for nearly all of our fossil plants. Oil doesn't come into the equation.

Fourth, the reason there are issue with available power on the grid is because every time a new plant or 400kV line is proposed you get morons like this fella objecting. Our planning laws need a huge overhaul IMO. At present, one person with a complaint can hold up a mutli billion euro project. It is this carryon that will hinder any future development in our country. The west of Ireland would be incredibly placed if the 400kV corridor had gone ahead. A strong grid connection, cheap land and highly educated people, including trades peiple, ready to work on these projects.

the whole year inn

JRant wrote: »

First up, there will be no chillers used. No Data centre in Ireland uses chillers, they are just not required. This site will use adiabatic cooling/free cooling.

Second, at present data centres use 3% of the available grid power. It is also an ideal load for the grid as it is more or less constant and doesn't fluctuate widely depending on time of day.

Third, we use coal and gas for nearly all of our fossil plants. Oil doesn't come into the equation.

Fourth, the reason there are issue with available power on the grid is because every time a new plant or 400kV line is proposed you get morons like this fella objecting. Our planning laws need a huge overhaul IMO. At present, one person with a complaint can hold up a mutli billion euro project. It is this carryon that will hinder any future development in our country. The west of Ireland would be incredibly placed if the 400kV corridor had gone ahead. A strong grid connection, cheap land and highly educated people, including trades peiple, ready to work on these projects.

So this plant wont affect the power grid and we wont as taxer payers have to foot the bill.
Can you provide links to the info your talking about please.

ezstreet5

I have no doubt that we will all be paying for these large data centres coming to Ireland.

First, according to Eirgrid forecasts, data centres account for 75% of new electricity demand growth in Ireland. They currently account for <2% of the total demand on the grid, but this will increase to 30% of the total demand by 2030 if all seeking connections ultimately do connect.

Second, the new Integrated Single Electricity Market (I-SEM) coming online next year is expected to eliminate excess generation capacity, such that a deficit is forecast by 2021. New generation capacity will be needed.

Third, data centres only pay 50% of their shallow connection to the grid, and 0% of any deep grid reinforcements that are ultimately needed because of their presence (mainly a Dublin issue, illustrated by the Microsoft case). Eirgrid pays the rest, and charges it back to generators through transmission use of system (TuoS) charges, which get passed through to consumers.

Fourth, large industrial customers typically pay less PSO levy per MWh than residential customers, and the gap is widening. (The residential levy increased by 40% this year, whilst the "large commercial" levy only increased by 12%).

And fifth, Ireland has binding renewable energy commitments of 16% (overall) with an electricity sub-target of 40% by 2020. The latest data (2015) show we are at 9.2% (overall) and 25.2% (electricity). Ireland is forecast to miss its targets, which will result in the need to execute an expensive "statistical transfer" with another Member State, or flat-out penalties levied by the EC. And remember, those targets will only rise with the 2030 Renewable Energy Directive. Data centres significantly increase the effort that will be needed to comply.

So the cost of data centres will be seen in higher domestic electricity rates, higher PSO levies, and higher general taxation needed to meet our renewable energy shortfall.

JRant

the whole year inn wrote: »

So this plant wont affect the power grid and we wont as taxer payers have to foot the bill.
Can you provide links to the info your talking about please.

No idea where you're getting that from to be honest.

What links are you looking for exactly?

threeball

JRant wrote: »

First up, there will be no chillers used. No Data centre in Ireland uses chillers, they are just not required. This site will use adiabatic cooling/free cooling.

Second, at present data centres use 3% of the available grid power. It is also an ideal load for the grid as it is more or less constant and doesn't fluctuate widely depending on time of day.

Third, we use coal and gas for nearly all of our fossil plants. Oil doesn't come into the equation.

Fourth, the reason there are issue with available power on the grid is because every time a new plant or 400kV line is proposed you get morons like this fella objecting. Our planning laws need a huge overhaul IMO. At present, one person with a complaint can hold up a mutli billion euro project. It is this carryon that will hinder any future development in our country. The west of Ireland would be incredibly placed if the 400kV corridor had gone ahead. A strong grid connection, cheap land and highly educated people, including trades peiple, ready to work on these projects.

Millions of litres of water instead of electricity, well thats ok then. Both are stupid ways to cool a data centre

Who's going to fork out for the millions in EU fines in 2019 when instead of getting closer to our emission targets we actually go further away. It won't be apple, Microsoft or Google. And what do we get for the millions it will cost us? About 15 jobs per centre. Whoop de doo. We'd be as well off take 15 randomers, give them half a million each and pretend we created jobs as it'd be cheaper than the costs to us in the long term.

Sure, upgrade the grid but for proper industries. Not these no man's lands who bring nothing to their community but billions to their owners.