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Pcp divers bottle

Beretta man

Lads what's the story with bottles to use with pcp
I noticed a few for sale which are out of test,what does this mean
Can they be used for the riffle

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German pointer

You need to have them certified before the can be filled.

Sparks

They're supposed to be inspected regularly (on account of the incredible amount of damage they can do if they fail while pressurised - you're talking about the equivalent of two or three hand grenades worth of energy a few feet from your face), both visually and hygroscopically (the two tests are seperate and on different schedules).
Nobody's going to fill a tank that's out of test, so you'll have to get them tested (it's not a huge expense). But there's an overall lifetime on those tanks as well (not sure what that is, it's ten years for the tank on the rifle itself but I don't know what the diver's tanks lifetime is). You'd want to check that too because if you're outside that, you can't use them at all.

Grizzly 45

About 5 years for the divers bottle.Depending on visual and hydro inspections and how they were filled .

civdef

Steel cylinders 5 year test with no max lifespan as long as they keep passing.

Composite wrapped aluminium cylinders 3 years test, and may have a lifespan of 15 years depending on age.

extremetaz

It's 10 years between service for non-breathing applications. Test costs about €30, and a full to 300bar is €5.

Lifespan of the tank is until it fails test as far as I'm aware.

The Faber 7L 300 is aluminium and is the best value fill-count wise (tank:rifle about 1:70 for the hw100)

Beretta man

Thanks any idea of price on a new faber 7l 300bar

extremetaz

I picked up mine for about €120 second hand.

This place is well worth a look - anything that will take a 300 bar charge will work just fine.
http://www.divegear.ie/index.php?category=For+Sale&sub_category=Cylinders&sid=50a142e2aefc23c5119205b8e256b8f0

You'll also want this fill probe:
http://www.airrifleshop.co.uk/Charging/FillProbeWeihrauch.htm

and this DIN fill adapter:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MDE-DIN-PCP-Air-Gun-Rifle-CHARGER-Filling-Charging-Adaptor-Hose-Gauge-NEW-/331158158549

Naturally, have a shop around in all cases, those are just the first links I happened upon.

ligertigon

OP
Can I ask what pressure your rifle is to be filled at?

amadablam

Folks, does anyone know if there is an available list of tank testing centres?

Beretta man

ligertigon wrote: »

OP
Can I ask what pressure your rifle is to be filled at?

190-200

ligertigon

The reason I ask, is because not many people understand how the whole bottle thing works.
A pcp gun rated at 232 bar, will get one and only one fill to 232 bar from a newly filled scuba tank regardless of the volume.
The average shot (that varies from gun to gun) is around 90 bar.
In a regulated gun, that gets 40 shots per scuba fill. you only get the 40 shots once, then the shot count diminishes, though not as noticeable at the start.

In other words, If I were you, get the highest pressure tank you can and carefully fill to the max allowed by the gun. There are fill calculators online, and its worth getting the microbore lines to save on the dumped air.

Really miss my Super 10

Sparks

That's technically perfectly correct ligertigon, but the manufacturers (at least for target airguns) take it into account - so on (say) my walther you might fill the tank to 300bar but there wouldn't be anywhere near 300bar behind the pellet; the regulator keeps the pressure low enough there that you can be certain of consistent pressure behind the pellet for around 200 shots from a full charge (and the manometer descends into the red before your tank pressure drops below the behind-the-pellet pressure. Your rifle tank is usually well over the firing pressure to allow for that. The higher the firing pressure, the lower the number of shots, but so long as you watch your manometer and refill before the needle's in the red, you don't have to worry about it affecting the shot.

Also, I'm not sure I'd get the highest possible pressure tank - I'd just get a bog standard scuba tank, one that was comfortable for me to lift and carry on my own (because that way, you're not going to be giving yourself a hernia every time you put it in the car to go to the dive shop to refill it; and if it's bog standard, it's going to be cheaper than the highest possible pressure ones). Honestly, we used to get months out of one fill on the tanks in WTSC and that was with four or five people training pretty constantly and refilling off them. For one person on their own tank, it's going to last a fair while, you won't be going to get it filled every month (if you are, I'd check your fittings, odds are you have a leak somewhere).

extremetaz

Sparks, I think what Ligertigon is saying is that you can only get a 232bar charge from a vessel filled to 232bar once from it's fill, after that the bottle pressure drops, and hence the charge to the rifle drops, and hence you get fewer shots to the fill.

Ligertigon, as sparks has said, in a regulated rifle (such as the HW100 that BM is using) this makes no difference to the performance of the rifle, the shots will remain consistent, however you're right, you will get fewer shots as you've less pressure to begin with.

This is fair concern with the HW100 as it has a relatively small tank and the difference bettween the 35-40 shots you get from a 200 bar fill, vs the 30 or so shots you get from a 170bar fill, is worth some consideration.

That's why I recommeded the 300bar model rather than a 232bar standard dive bottle, as this will give you about 50 x 200bar fills from a single 300bar charge, and about another 20 fills from there down to 170bar or so.

As to test centers, I've always used Lambay Diving for both fill and test. (€5 & €30 respectively IIRC)

ligertigon

extremetaz wrote: »

Sparks, I think what Ligertigon is saying is that you can only get a 232bar charge from a vessel filled to 232bar once from it's fill, after that the bottle pressure drops, and hence the charge to the rifle drops, and hence you get fewer shots to the fill.

Ligertigon, as sparks has said, in a regulated rifle (such as the HW100 that BM is using) this makes no difference to the performance of the rifle, the shots will remain consistent, however you're right, you will get fewer shots as you've less pressure to begin with.

This is fair concern with the HW100 as it has a relatively small tank and the difference bettween the 35-40 shots you get from a 200 bar fill, vs the 30 or so shots you get from a 170bar fill, is worth some consideration.

That's why I recommeded the 300bar model rather than a 232bar standard dive bottle, as this will give you about 50 x 200bar fills from a single 300bar charge, and about another 20 fills from there down to 170bar or so.

As to test centers, I've always used Lambay Diving for both fill and test. (€5 & €30 respectively IIRC)

Second all that.
Most dive centres certify, for dive use. Outside of this I have filled non dive certified bottles depending on year of manufacture/visual.
Ironically, the weak link is really the adaptor on the guns bottle, there should be a date stamped on it...

ligertigon

might help:

http://www.divegear.ie/index.php?category=For+Sale&sub_category=Cylinders

extremetaz

ligertigon wrote: »

Ironically, the weak link is really the adaptor on the guns bottle, there should be a date stamped on it...

Agreed, you see that a good bit with the 10m rifles where the cylinders have to be removed to be recharged. The HW100 has a quick-fill probe which allows you to avoid removing the cylinder though, which mitigates this issue significantly.

Sparks

Er, taz, if you're seeing that a good bit with a 10m rifle, it's broken badly and needs immediate repair before it's used again. We get O-rings degrading occasionally or falling out -- those are an easy fix -- but if you're seeing actual damage to that part, then that's not how it's supposed to be. In eighteen years of shooting the things, I've never seen that joint actually fail, despite the best efforts of hundreds of total newbies, many baggage handlers, and more clumsiness than would reflect well on me if I logged it in detail

But seriously, those tanks are nothing to mess about with, if you're seeing even small amounts of damage in places it shouldn't be or leaks where there shouldn't be any, for the love of small furry things don't ignore it, it's a serious problem that needs fixing. If tanks like that (or like the ones we refill from) fail, it can be pretty catastrophic. They're easily the most dangerous thing on any firing range in this country (with the possible exception of the army's artillery range). This is what happens if the refill tank lets go in a car, for example:

extremetaz

Easy there Sparks, I'm not sure how you concluded that I was suggesting this was an OK or normal state of affairs.

We were discussing the rifle's tank, not the dive bottle. We've replaced several of the former on rifles in DURC (as you're no doubt aware) on account of the threads which mate into the receiver/fill adapter becoming worn - all that I've encoutered were replaced well before there was any risk presented.

Ligertigon, as far as I'm aware, aluminium PCP rifle tanks do indeed have an expiry date on them, I don't believe that steel ones do though, I've certainly never noticed one on any I've seen. It should be noted that you wouldn't get thread damage to the cylinder of a steel tank in normal use either, the tank would be the one doing the damage to the aluminium receiver or the brass fill adapter in that case - which may actually make the wear harder/less likely to get noticed.

The 10m rifle tanks are all aluminium now as far as I'm aware so it's no so much of a concern, but older rifles and field rifles (like the HW) are more likely to have steel tanks - which might explain why you've seen the adapters get worn rather than the tanks themselves.

IRLConor

extremetaz wrote: »

The 10m rifle tanks are all aluminium now as far as I'm aware

Most of them are aluminium as standard but there are steel options available still.

That said, the ISSF has a blanket 10 year maximum expiry on air cylinders and your rifle will fail equipment control if your cylinder is out of date. So there isn't a huge advantage to buying the steel ones if you have to replace them anyway.

LIFFY FISHING

Do you need to put one of those green stickers indicating you are carrying a pressurised cylinder in your car if you are transporting a dive cylinder to or from a shoot or refill

ligertigon

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Do you need to put one of those green stickers indicating you are carrying a pressurised cylinder in your car if you are transporting a dive cylinder to or from a shoot or refill

Short answer NO. Make sure it is secure from moving free (straped) and has access to vent.

Long answer, look up UN1002 and the conditions involved, but very few will follow them other than hazardous waste disposal companies. Even the ambulance and fire service will probably fall short of these conditions (and oxygen has subsidary risks), which include driver HSA permit, tremcard, load documents, tanks not stored near passengers or driver, and tanks certified for transport.

Most ferry companies are also happy to let you carry them once tested and secured.

A compressed gas sticker is asking for your window to be broken and the tank robbed IMO

civdef

Long answer, look up UN1002 and the conditions involved, but very few will follow them other than hazardous waste disposal companies. Even the ambulance and fire service will probably fall short of these conditions (and oxygen has subsidary risks), which include driver HSA permit, tremcard, load documents, tanks not stored near passengers or driver, and tanks certified for transport.

Basicallly, no.

Carriage of a compressed air cylinder for sport would be exempt from ADR regs.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Chemical_and_Hazardous_Substances/ADR_Carriage_of_Dangerous_Goods_by_Road_A_Guide_for_Business.pdf

ligertigon

civdef wrote: »

Basicallly, no.

Carriage of a compressed air cylinder for sport would be exempt from ADR regs.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Chemical_and_Hazardous_Substances/ADR_Carriage_of_Dangerous_Goods_by_Road_A_Guide_for_Business.pdf

How many can you carry?

civdef

As long as they're being used personally for sport, I see no limit - it would be hard to justify a van load though!

The green label is optional, definitely if you had more than one or two, it would be appreciated by emergency services in the event of a fire / accident - saw the results of a couple of pallets of compressed air cylinders getting heated and exploding a truck fire once - scary.

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