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Child Custody

Jannah

This is just a topic that I've found a little disturbing lately, as I'm not sure whether this is just Sharia law completely misinterpreted or if its actually the done thing and permitted by the Quran.

If a couple divorce, the woman is allowed custody of her son until he is 7 years old and of her daughter until she has reached puberty when custody will be passed over to the father.
The father then has the right to refuse visitation to the mother on the grounds that she "Isn't a good enough Muslim" (that is, she doesn't wear hijab, has been seen out with men etc)
Some websites have said that the daughter can stay with the mother until the daughter gets married, but the son must always go to the father.
All sites have said that if a woman re-marries, her children must immediately go to the father, regardless of what age they are, unless they are related to the man in question.
In the case that it is proven the man is incompetent to mind the kids, custody is still kept within his side of the family and not given to the children's mother

Does anyone know what exactly is the truth behind thing, because I've been getting mixed responses from each site!?

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the_new_mr

I remember seeing this film ages ago. It's pure propaganda alright made released around the time of the gulf war.

Haven't ever read the book. It seems like she was being treated a bit unfairly (in the film) and I imagine that that kind of stuff has and does go on but that doesn't make it any less of an individual case in isolation.

I remember thinking how the film wasn't just about a mother wanting to leave with her daughter but was also sending all these weird hidden signals trying to make people feel that Muslims were bizarre people. Like when they got out of the car after having arrived from the airport and they were slaughtering a sheep in celebration or something (in itself, not necessarily a bad thing) but the bizarre bit was where they had to step over it (strange local custom) and I remember the girl saying "Mommy, they're hurting it" or something. A classic example of how culture is often mistaken/mixed for/with Islamic ways thus giving people the wrong impression (like women not being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia).

There was one particular scene that really shocked me though. It was when "Moody" (her husband) had become all weird and distant (the actor was almost playing him like a zombie) and he was saying that he wanted to stay in the country they were visiting (can't remember where it was) and the mother was getting all distraught and crying but it wasn't until he said "I want [daughter's name] to be a Muslim" that she totally flipped out as if he had gone too far.

Just pure propaganda.

Interestingly enough, it seems that a documentary about the guy (Bozorg Mahmoody) who was left behind in Iran was made called Without my daughter. As is usually the case with these things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Jannah wrote:

HOWEVER, there is an interesting part of the hadith that actually allows for deception:
"Maslama said 'Oh Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.' 'Say what you like' Muhammad replied. 'You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.' Ishaq 365 / Tabari VII:94

I believe that this hadith refers to a time of warfare when some of the companions had to act as spies and spy on the pagan army. It's even clear from the hadith that the companions were uneasy with the idea of having to tell lies (as if they weren't, they wouldn't have mentioned it) and the prophet is clear that they will be forgiven and should say what they must. It's completely fair under circumstances such as those.

//Edit
Just watched that trailer out of curiosity and it's even worse than I remember!! "Her only crime was being American". Please!!

//Edit2
Stumbled across this. Interesting.

Jannah

the_new_mr wrote: »

It's pure propaganda alright made released around the time of the gulf war.

Ahhh, yeah, like I said before, there are a few choice paragraphs that make you sit back and think "wtf!!", but I put it down to her own bitterness and anger at her husband. What was also surprising was how negative she began in talking about him- surely she should have at least tried to convey her actual feelings at the time she is supposed to be describing! Surely she didn't hate him from the very beginning!

I think the most shocking thing wasn't just her own isolated case, but the fact that these kinds of things can go on- and legally!

the_new_mr wrote: »

I believe that this hadith refers to a time of warfare when some of the companions had to act as spies and spy on the pagan army. It's even clear from the hadith that the companions were uneasy with the idea of having to tell lies (as if they weren't, they wouldn't have mentioned it) and the prophet is clear that they will be forgiven and should say what they must. It's completely fair under circumstances such as those.

Spying on the pagans?! :S Whatever happened to the whole "we were meant to differ" and "you have your religion and I will have mine" ideas? There's something slightly unsettling about all this warfare business intermingled with religion... then again, after an education of Jesus sitting under the shade of a tree and saying to the children come sit by me and they sat at his feet and he touched them and smiled and said how much he loved each little child..... tis a contrast!!!

the_new_mr wrote: »

"Her only crime was being American". Please!!

Lol, I love how its done in a really deep, dramtic voice too! There was quite the cheesy part in the book where the child draws the American flag with 'A M E r I C A' written underneath and shows the mom and its just one of those really cheap "God Bless America" moments- ick!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Stumbled across this. Interesting.

Hum. Why did they censor it? Celebrities say worse!!

the_new_mr

Jannah wrote:

Spying on the pagans?! :S Whatever happened to the whole "we were meant to differ" and "you have your religion and I will have mine" ideas? There's something slightly unsettling about all this warfare business intermingled with religion

This was when the pagans were coming to fight the Muslims in Medina so self-defense was the order of the day. You can find it clearly stated that when the number of Muslims grew into the many tens of thousands and they took back Mecca, they spared everyone there and it was a peaceful takeover. Peace is always the first option if available. Unfortunately, acts of war by other groups is a reality of life.

Jannah wrote:

then again, after an education of Jesus sitting under the shade of a tree and saying to the children come sit by me and they sat at his feet and he touched them and smiled and said how much he loved each little child..... tis a contrast!!!

I believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of God and I have only love and respect for him. You can find many similarities between Jesus and Mohamed (peace be upon them) and the reason for this is obvious since they are believed by Muslims to both be messengers of God and are the last two messengers sent to earth. Muslims are also waiting for Jesus' second coming.

It's important to remember that religion needs to be viewed in its entirety and singling out individual passages is unfair. For example, according to the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) said:

Matthew 10:34-36
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household."

Jannah wrote:

Hum. Why did they censor it? Celebrities say worse!!

They were making the point that it was because she said an anti-war statement.

hivizman

the_new_mr wrote: »

I remember seeing this film ages ago.

Same here - thought at the time that it was rather sensationalist.

the_new_mr wrote: »

I believe that this hadith refers to a time of warfare when some of the companions had to act as spies and spy on the pagan army. It's even clear from the hadith that the companions were uneasy with the idea of having to tell lies (as if they weren't, they wouldn't have mentioned it) and the prophet is clear that they will be forgiven and should say what they must. It's completely fair under circumstances such as those.

I checked the citation to Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah - the page reference is to the translation by A. Guillaume published by OUP. At-Tabari used Ibn Ishaq as a prime source so doesn't count as an independent reference. The hadith references are to Bukhari and Muslim. The story is that Ka'b b. Al-Ashraf, who had a family connection with one of the Jewish tribes in Medina, went to Mecca after the battle of Badr (when Muhammad and his supporters defeated the polytheist Quraysh tribe from Mecca) and "began to inveigh against the apostle and to recite verses in which he bewailed the Quraysh who were thrown into the pit after having been slain at Badr" (Ibn Ishaq trans. Guillaume, p. 365). Ka'b returned to Medina and apparently composed verses that were offensive to certain Muslim women. Muhammad asked "who will rid me of the son of Al-Ashraf?" A Muslim called Muhammad b. Maslama volunteered, but after lying in wait for Ka'b for several days, decided that he needed to make use of a ruse to lure Ka'b into the open. Ibn Maslama said to Muhammad that he would have to lie to Ka'b, and the Prophet is quoted by Ibn Ishaq as telling Ibn Maslama "Say what you like, for you are free in the matter."

This story has been jumped on my critics of Islam for two reasons. First, Ka'b is portrayed as similar to a modern campaigning journalist. Apparently, reciting verses was a common way in which news and argument were communicated in 7th century Arabia. This makes Muhammad appear to be someone who does not like to tolerate criticism, and shuts the critic up in the most violent way. (I was reminded of Henry II's question to his knights "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?", which led to the murder of Thomas Becket, but perhaps Guillaume was also thinking of this when he translated Ibn Ishaq's words.) There's a very virulent website here that makes this claim.

The other use of the story is the apparent approval given to lying and deception.

I'm not sure what this story has to do with child custody, but I may have missed something while enjoying myself in Australia.

the_new_mr

You're welcome back hivizman. Not sure if I said this or not yet so thought I'd say it here... if a little late

The hadith you're referring to is not the one I'm thinking of. I'm not so sure about the authenticity of the hadith you mentioned. There's another very well known story of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) where when he was living in Mecca, a man used to leave a pile of rubbish outside Mohamed's (peace be upon him) door every morning. One day, the Prophet woke up to find no rubbish outside the door so went to see if the guy was okay. In another well known story, during a battle with the pagans from Mecca, the Prophet's companions asked the Prophet to pray to God to curse their enemies to which he replied "I was not sent to bring such things. I was sent as a mercy to mankind".

The hadith I was referring to was when spies were needed to see what was going on with the pagan army and the spies would have to lie to pretend that they were members of the pagan army themselves. I know that there were a few occurrences where the companions were allowed to lie in such situations as a necessity.

By the way hivizman, that link you posted is in breach of the forum charter. There's another site with a very similar URL which is in direct reply to it (I'm sure you know it) and even though it has a lot of very interesting articles and does an excellent job of refuting every claim on the first site, it shouldn't be posted either as it's also in breach of the forum charter. As moderator, I'll have to issue a warning for it.

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