blackpowder wrote: »

1. will the bill really be passed to allow reloaders and muzzloaders i have heard it will be this year?

No-one knows. We have no part in the passing of any legislation so only know when it becaomes an Act. Besides did you not recieve an e-mail from the DOJ assuring you that it would be?

blackpowder (4-2-2011) wrote:

i got an e mail today which basically outlined that under the current legislation importation of propellant and holding of it is prohibited but this person at the dept, reassured me new legisation would definitly be in this year 2011 to clear up the grey area and allowances for reloading be introduced they said that there would be moves definitly in the next few months

2. what provisions would the shooter have to make in regards to holding an lb of bp per say would it be having to attend a course on health and safety or what pretext do you think because i don't think it even though made legal it would be readily handed out either

Again we can only speculate at this point. Simply having the explosive Act done and dusted does not automatically mean everyone can start getting powder immediately irrespective of security/safety conditions that need adhering to. I would not even guess as to the conditions that may be required for fear that any statment would be seen as a willingness to accept strict conditions in order to get reloading.

3. and finally would it be crazy to go ordering a reproduction musket from henry kranks on the basis of the explosives legislation being passed??? thank you all very much for any information

As said above, Yes. You, me and everyone else has no idea what is coming. The conditions may be such that a person may not even have the ability to reload at home and it must be carried out on a range. Then it would be up to the individual ranges as to whom they allow to use the facilities.

There are simply to many unknowns to make any definitive plans based on what you may think or hope will happen. There will be plenty of time when the bill is passed, plus when it gets to this point and dealers realise that there is now a market prices may drop due to increased orders of such guns as mentioned above.

tac foley wrote: »

..........., that again has not yet been made known to the ordinary folks of this island.

Well, most of them.

The Irish team who gave the Americans such a hard-fought fight in the recent Creedmore match would be able to tell you what storage requirements THEY had to follow. As the only licensed practitioners of centre-fire reloading in the entire country, nobody else is able to tell you.

Again with the "them". Those involved in the Creedmoor cannot tell you what is required for the storage of powder anymore than any other person out there. We DID NOT have personal storage of powder. It was imported through the range, stored on the range and used on the range. There is no rmoving of primers or powder from the range. Any abuse of this system would result in immediate expulsion from the range and that person being struck from the list of people allowed to carry out reloading through the pilot scheme.

So the idea of us kowing anymore than any one else is simply not the case.

blackpowder wrote: »

............ ,last year as a matter of fact i contacted the dept of justice i was just testing the c42 route the opinion there was that the importation and use of bp/pyrodex was illegal ..........

It is not illegal simply not being permitted at the moment, hence prohibited as you already attested to.............

blackpowder (4-2-2011) wrote:

........... under the current legislation importation of propellant and holding of it is prohibited ..........

blackpowder wrote: »

........... 1. was that it was practically unheard of ever for any reloader to have ever imported powder ,primers ect in to ireland and it was also an illegal at the moment for shooting purposes

There is the thing. That word "illegal" gets thrown around a little too freely for my liking and not used in the proper context. It IS NOT illegal to import powder, etc. It is prevented from the point of view that the necessary licenses and inport permits are not being issued. You may say this is the same thing and in essence it is, but legally there is a huge difference.

Illegal means against the law. Prevented means they not issuing the paperwork necessary. They have to work of the current law/legislation. The new Act should clear all this up but until it passes and becomes an Act they must work off the existing laws. Under existing laws you can legally have them if you can get the license to hold the powder and the import documentation for the importation through a dealer. However they are refusing to issue these licenses, etc so in effect is stalled. However saying it is illegal is just WRONG.

i suspect personally probably those interested having to do a health and safety course in handling of the propellant

Possibly and it wouldn;t be a bad idea.

storage of propellant in a garda station,

I doubt it. A Garda would have to be qualified (firearms Officer or such) and then the area the powder is to be stored must meet the same safety requirements as the midlands was made to adhere to otherwise it would be double standards. Also trying to meet your FO to get powder would be tricky at best. I don;t think this would be a runner at all.

and then only certain amount being bought to the club in question for use,

It would be simpler for the club to erect security building rather than every individual shooter trying to meet the same conditions.

as well as background checks,

Already done for your firearms cert(s).

if and when the legislation is passed and is like the 2009 bill which didn't bother being addressed by dermott ahern properly ,why at all even bother with new legislation at all thats what im wondering

The firearms act was "updated" in 2009 but as propellant and BP fall outside of the description of firearms and ammunition as per DOJ, then the act of 2009 ha nothing to do with it. Thats the reason the new explosive bill is being drafted.

we,re talking about tourism in this country and how it might help save us from the brink of economic ruin

I really don't want to be ignorant so excuse me if what i say comes across as "angry" or "nasty", but thats rubbish.

Tourism is by far the least concern any minister, shooting body, organisation has on its mind when waiting/prepring/consulting for new legislation. Ireland has never been known for its tourist shooting holidays as per American, Polish, etc gunranges, etc. Apart from powder/BP, etc we do not allow the firearms that these people can openly use in their own countries.

Even if all this were available i would like to see the numbers that show how shooting from a tourist point of view could in any way make a dent in current economic pitfall.

Besides all that the only concern for now is not to get reloading for tourists but for the shootes of this country.

Landkeeper wrote:

ezridax how many of the irish squad actually availed of the reloading facility that the permit was granted for ?

As far as i know all of them. I wasn't personally in contact with all the lads prior to, and throughout the competition but i would find it funny to think that with all the work that went into getting the reloading for some to refuse/not use the facilities.

was it a worthwhile exercise in your experience did it take much time to develop loads to suit individual rifles

Its an ongoing experience, but most definitely worthwhile. With the Creemoor behind us, and numerous competitions coming up including the Europeans and Worlds it is as important to still have the reloading as it was in the run up to the Creedmoor. In relation to load developement i spent some long days prior to the Creedmoor working on a load, starting from the lowest charge and working up. The advantage of having all the facilities at the range was being able to load some rounds, go and test fire them and get the info you need and then going back to the reloading facilities and tweaking it or simply running off a few rounds that work.

blackpowder wrote:

the right to decide for ourselves

Taking all that into account there is one factor that we all have to understand. Firearm ownership in Ireland is a "concession" given to us. We have no legal right/entitlement to firearm ownership. This extends to ammunition, powder, etc.

if we could see tourists coming in doing a spot of bp/reloading it would help the image of the sport here

And maybe in the years to come when reloading is well established it will be available, but for now and with the attitudes towards reloading the main concern is to get it for our own shooters both on a competition front an dpersonal front. It is more important to get reloading to futher our own sprts rather than entertain some tourists. Plus, and BP aside, if i were a tourist i would be more interested in firing a few shots than spending a few hours in a shed/bunker making the rounds.

May i ask finally why if the dept can issue imports licenses where is the problem then with them being granted

As i've said before because those in authority do not fully understand reloading and so are taking baby steps while implimenting it. Remember that the explosive bill has not been passed so all steps taken so far, including those in the pilot scheme, are in line with the old laws and regulations. They cannot impliment a full run out of reloading even if they wanted until the new legislation is in place and they have a fixed and steadfast set of laws/rules to work from.

So to prevent any mishaps, powder being issued/imported, anyone reloading they simply refuse the import of the somponants necessary until they are good and ready.

The fact of the matter is this. I agree with other posters on a number of points including the advantages of reloaded ammo over factory ammo, and the cost saving. I have said it before that i would love to see everyone with the ability to reload i genuinely would, but with current attitudes surrounding reloading and firearms in general the PTB will not simply "hand it out".

We, and i mean all shooters in Ireland, are painfully aware of the cost of ammo compared to elsewhere in the EU/World. We are aware of the strict gun laws that other countries do not have. We are aware of the poorly worded, mish mosh, self contradicting legislation we have surrounding firearms. Most of us have been putting up with it for years upon years. Even the new legislation that was to re-vamp the firearms act and hurt the criminals while not affecting the "Honest, decent , law abiding firearm owner" is a mess. As Sparks, and others have attested to over the years since its introduction there are probably a dozen or so people in the entire country that fully understand all the Acts, amendments, SIs, etc.

As with all things in Ireland progression is slow and every step is checked, rechecked, and assessed before proceeding. So if we have to build bunkers, limit the reloading to a range, do a course, etc to have reloading i say fine. I'll do it. If it means i get what i want then so be it. Once we have it we can move forward, but if we refused it or said we wanted everything that is available elsewhere or nothing at all then you all know the answer we'd get.

I have also said in the past that people complaining about not having reloading should ask any NGB, organisation, club, range, etc that they are affiliated to why they did not ask for it on their behalf instead of complaining about how one NGB that did seek it, got it. There was a 3 month (IIRC) open invitation to all parties and individuals to submit requests to the DOJ for reloading. Only one responded. Now that range/NGB is the focus of both attention and scorn from all others that did not apply. Why? Where would we be if they had not sought the reloading? Would we be having this conversation at all? Lets face if it that one application did not go in there would have been no-one seeking reloading, in the eyes of the PTB, and by association no interest in reloading therefore no need for it.

I realise you all think its easy for me and the others that have access to the reloading facilities to say "relax, it'll happen when it happens". You all must realise that we can ONLY make target rounds. Even though we have it its not a "free for all" making as many rounds as we want for every sort of activity (ie - hunting, etc). Target/Competition rounds ONLY.

As it stands reloading is still alive and kicking. However limited or small its still here. The pilot scheme should be viewed as a positive. It can only lead to future progression in reloading. Whether that progression is positive or negative no-one will know until the propossed explosive bill is finalised and passed. I tend to stay positive and hope for the best. Others are free to see it as they wish.

tac foley wrote: »

That, Sir, is not true.

You are right. If refering to the 3 month period it could have been longer.

If you are refering to "Only one responded", then yes there was another application made, but long after the first and only submission. However i am not specifying one organisation or trying to start a row with any other group, but instead am making a broad statment regarding every other organisation. I would be curious who else applied for it after the first FCP meeting when it was discovered that only one had applied. I mean if it was so unfair that we do not have reloading why was no-one else applied when offered the opportunity.

The Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland URL="http://[URL]http://www.vcrai.com]/"][COLOR=#0066cc]www.vcrai.com][/COLOR][/URL[/URL also responded.

In 2009 (Feb or Oct. I can't remember which) the VCRAI submitted an application. So whatever happened to it? Who followed up on it? What reasons were given for not allowing it?

While everyone/party/organisation/group/NGB was free to apply i'm sure there had to be legitimate reasons for requesting reloading. Also other factors had to be considered. Where would it take place? Have the person(s)/organisations a range/location of their own? Not unlike a firearms license is the reason valid. IOW wanting a firearm is not a valid reason so it must stand to reason that simply wanting reloading would not/may not be a valid enough reason.

If you wish to have a copy of the submission that was made, please email me.

Thank you.

tac

Not necessary, but thank you for the offer.