Church Closures

Subpopulus · 25-09-2014 2:44pm #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sacristan-stages-sit-in-to-keep-popular-drogheda-church-open-1.1941425

I've often wondered whether catholic churches would start closing with church attendance rates falling so dramatically. Seems like this has started. All across the countryside there are hundreds of abandoned protestant churches that were shut from about the forties to the eighties. C of I numbers have more or less bottomed out so they haven't had to close churches for a long time. There's also a lot of Wesleyan and Methodist chapels about, given that they're more or less extinct across most of Ireland.

It looks likely that as church attendance continues to trickle downwards, and vocations fall off, that more catholic churches will be shutting doors. I think vocations will probably be the main cause rather than attendance - it won't be possible for elderly priests to say mass multiple times in different churches across a parish on a sunday, so they'll probably have to 'rationalise' their masses, to use a businessy term.

More interestingly for me, as an architect, is what's going to become of these empty church buildings. A lot of them have rather nice architectural features that can't be interfered with, and they don't really lend themselves to uses other than as places of worship. There's a lot of examples of churches being turned into offices and homes, with varying degrees of success - look at St. Georges Church in Dublin. A lot of old C of I chapels have been made into village arts centres and the like, but they usually make for rubbish theatres.
You have Christchurch in Cork, which now a performance venue is fairly well done. There's The Church bar in Dublin, which isn't too bad either. But often they end up as carpet warehouses or the like. There's a Wesleyan Chapel near me that's now a motor factors, and a C of I chapel that's a warehouse for a timber company.

In the new DIT at Grangegorman there's a catholic chapel that was in use up until last year and now it's a student performance area. I think there was a lot of issues about what might be performed there - possible worries among the catholic church that the Drama Soc might put on a production of Gay! The Gay Musical!

Cabaal · 25-09-2014 4:32pm

This started a good few years ago,

But its not just down to people attending church, its also down to the very fact that they simply don't have the priests to do the masses anymore!
The Augustinian also started shutting a number of church's years ago as they simply don't have the priests anymore to do mass in them.

My hope is that the catholic church in Ireland will mirror what it did in the Netherlands - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands

Already only 30% odd of the people that identify themselves as catholic in Ireland actually bother to go to mass

robindch · 25-09-2014 5:35pm

The dutch are showing the world the way forward in dealing with declining congregations:

Not to mention our very own Church

Cabaal · 25-09-2014 5:38pm

robindch wrote: »

Not to mention our very own Church

Oh,
I'm visiting this next time I'm in Dublin!

J C · 25-09-2014 9:58pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh,
I'm visiting this next time I'm in Dublin!

Is this going to be a case of coming to pay ... but staying to pray?:)

Cork boy 55 · 25-09-2014 10:10pm

They should be comverted into Temples to mother-earth(earth labs) where
awakened enlightened free humanoid volunteers can come together to engage in environmental education and activism.
there they will worship environmental scientific atheism in order to establish a sustainable environmental for man and nature on the Earth planet.

Solar temple in northern Germany

J C · 25-09-2014 10:13pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

They should be comverted into Temples to mother-earth(earth labs) where
awakened enlightened free humanoid volunteers can come together to engage in environmental education and activism.
there they will worship environmental scientific atheism in order to establish a sustainable environmental for man and nature on the Earth planet.

Solar temple in northern Germany

... and so it comes full circle ... back to Sun-worship again.

PopePalpatine · 25-09-2014 10:16pm

It's SOLAR PANELS, not a temple for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake! Or did you just come here to troll?

J C · 25-09-2014 10:27pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's SOLAR PANELS, not a temple for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake! Or did you just come here to troll?

I'm not trolling ... it was called a Solar Temple by Cork Boy.

Skrynesaver · 25-09-2014 11:31pm

In fairness at least I have direct evidence for the sun and without it there would be no life on earth

J C · 25-09-2014 11:35pm

Skrynesaver wrote: »

In fairness at least I have direct evidence for the sun and without it there would be no life on earth

I also have direct evidence for God ... and without Him there would be neither a Sun nor life nor an Earth.

I'll see your Sun ... and raise you the Earth and all life.:)

shruikan2553 · 25-09-2014 11:51pm

J C wrote: »

I also have direct evidence for God ... and without Him there would be neither a Sun nor life nor an Earth.

I'll see your Sun ... and raise you the Earth and all life.:)

I want to ask what this evidence is but I'm afraid of opening pandora's box.

J C · 25-09-2014 11:54pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I want to ask what this evidence is but I'm afraid of opening pandora's box.

You're correct that it could ruin your faith in Atheism allright!!!:)

smokingman · 26-09-2014 12:36am

My local delusion building is closing and I can't wait 'til it gets turned into something useful.

J C · 26-09-2014 7:53am

smokingman wrote: »

My local delusion building is closing and I can't wait 'til it gets turned into something useful.

I think that you're being a bit hard on atheists by calling the place where you meet a 'delusion building'

...
...and the conversion of church buildings is a 'two way street' ... here is a list of new Churches ... some in converted buildings in Industrial Estates
http://www.dublinchurches.com/cgi-bin/churchdb/churchdb.cgi?Searchterm=Pentecostal

P_1 · 26-09-2014 10:24am

Well if there's no need for them (from a religious worship perspective) then it does make sense to convert them for other uses. Architecturally, quite a lot of them are stunning buildings.

Links234 · 26-09-2014 10:29am

P_1 wrote: »

Architecturally, quite a lot of them are stunning buildings.

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

kylith · 26-09-2014 10:41am

Whenever I have to attend a church event I generally pass the time by mentally converting the building into a house, then imagining what Kevin McCloud would say about it.

Not all churches are architectural gems though, there was a trend in the 60s/70s for hexagonal ones that could, imo, best be altered with a flamethrower and a JCB.

Peregrinus · 26-09-2014 10:44am

Links234 wrote: »

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

The problem is that a lot of them are located in places that have no great need for a museum or concert hall. In the nature of things, the churches that get selected for closure tend to be disproportionately located in depopulated and/or declining areas.

A conversion which is both beautiful and viable can be quite a challenge.

Akrasia · 26-09-2014 10:46am

J C wrote: »

I think that you're being a bit hard on atheists by calling the place where you meet a 'delusion building' ...
...and the conversion of church buildings is a 'two way street' ... here is a list of new Churches ... some in converted buildings in Industrial Estates
http://www.dublinchurches.com/cgi-bin/churchdb/churchdb.cgi?Searchterm=Pentecostal

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church (ie, the lame duck church in Ireland that is waiting the last of it's clergy to retire and/or die, but not the historical rc church which had it's hand in crusades and murder and torture and systemic wholesale subjugation of populations)

These new evangelical churches are dangerous because they actually believe and act on the nonsense contained within the bible.

I Heart Internet · 26-09-2014 1:46pm

The idea that a church can only remain open if there is a resident priest to say mass daily (or weekly) in them is incorrect. Churches belong to the local, resident communities.

I think we've been seeing some, limited, examples of catholic churches - especially those associated with institutions - defunct colleges, mental hospitals, etc being turned to other uses. But I think even the Grangegorman one is still to be used on Sunday morning's for mass.

Very few (I know of precisely zero) parish churches are unused or in danger of being put to alternative uses. A good sprinkling of churches/chapels associated with religious houses have been sold though.

Then you have the example of the Sacred Heart church in Limerick. Was a Jesuit church, sold by them to a property developer, bought back by the Institute of Christ the King - a roman catholic order dedicated to the use of the traditional/latin rites of the sacraments. So really, that church has actually been put back to use in for precisely the same purpose for which it was built.

http://institute-christ-king.ie/

Mr. CooL ICE · 26-09-2014 2:01pm

I know of a handful of heavy bands that have recorded in disused churches with mobile studio equipment. The cavernous, stoney sound is hard to reproduce in a traditional studio. Even if the buildings aren't converted for specific purposes, they can be still be used for things like this.

Subpopulus · 26-09-2014 2:30pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Then you have the example of the Sacred Heart church in Limerick. Was a Jesuit church, sold by them to a property developer, bought back by the Institute of Christ the King - a roman catholic order dedicated to the use of the traditional/latin rites of the sacraments. So really, that church has actually been put back to use in for precisely the same purpose for which it was built.

http://institute-christ-king.ie/

Likewise you have the Dublin Mosque on the South Circular Road - it used to be a Presbyterian church

robindch · 26-09-2014 2:36pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Churches belong to the local, resident communities.

So the schools belong to the church, but the churches belong to the people?

I think the church might disagree.

J C · 27-09-2014 12:01am

Links234 wrote: »

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

This is what happened to churches behind the Iron Curtain ... and was enforced by the various Atheistic Secular regimes in these countries at the time.
I can report from a recent visit to one such former atheistic communist country that rumours of the demise of the Christian Church in these countries have been greatly exaggerated. I found vibrant Christian Communities living happily and with mutual respect with their secular neighbours ... with most of the churches restored to their former use and architectural glory ... and I suspect the same will be the eventual out-turn in Ireland.

Piliger · 27-09-2014 12:12am

robindch wrote: »

So the schools belong to the church, but the churches belong to the people?

I think the church might disagree.

It is an appalling state of affairs really when you think about it.

In previous centuries the PEOPLE provided the money to the church to acquire the land, or even donated the land directly to build churches/monasteries/nunneries etc.

Then fast forward to the last thirty years and suddenly all of this vastly valuable land is deemed the property of the catholic church. MANY such properties or parts of such properties have been sold off for huge fortunes, often shared by small groups of priests and nuns. It is a shocking disgrace.

J C · 27-09-2014 12:18am

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church (ie, the lame duck church in Ireland that is waiting the last of it's clergy to retire and/or die, but not the historical rc church which had it's hand in crusades and murder and torture and systemic wholesale subjugation of populations)

These new evangelical churches are dangerous because they actually believe and act on the nonsense contained within the bible.

Less of the unfounded scaremongering and downright sectarianism please.

Interestingly, this was the type of propaganda used by militant Communists to justify their pillage of church property and the persecution of Christians in so called 'secular socialist republics' behind the Iron Curtain - and, unlike your references to some Medieval Roman Catholic activities ... these secular dictatorships existed very recently indeed in eastern Europe, until they collapsed under their own inefficiency.

I thought that we lived in more enlightened and liberal times ... but the silence of everybody on this thread in the face of your anti-christian diatribes says that Christians need to be ever vigilant and ever ready to counter such unfounded scaremongering.

Calling Christian Churches 'minicults' and 'dangerous' is quite outrageous, insulting and inflammatory.:(
... and it is certainly not the type of remarks one would expect to hear un-opposed in a society that respects tolerance of cultural and religious (and irreligious) diversity.

gctest50 · 27-09-2014 12:30am

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church ...................

That's the problem - it's like the cola vs. diet cola thing

cola - oh noes the sugarz
diet - the sweetners
but but if you only have a little bit and and

best thing is to pour both of them down the toilet where they belong and just drink water

J C · 27-09-2014 12:31am

Piliger wrote: »

It is an appalling state of affairs really when you think about it.

In previous centuries the PEOPLE provided the money to the church to acquire the land, or even donated the land directly to build churches/monasteries/nunneries etc.

Then fast forward to the last thirty years and suddenly all of this vastly valuable land is deemed the property of the catholic church. MANY such properties or parts of such properties have been sold off for huge fortunes, often shared by small groups of priests and nuns. It is a shocking disgrace.

I obviously hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church ... but I cannot condone in silence, what you say.
The priests and nuns that you talk of have largely given lives of great service and self-less sacrifice to their communities ... and now at the end of their days, I think it is quite churlish to begrudge them the where-with-all to live out what is left of their old age with dignity - and if that has to be funded from property sales, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.
I may have some theological differences with Roman Catholicism, but I have no issue with older priests and nuns living out their old age in the dignity that they undoubtedly deserve - and I would hope that, in love and respect, you might re-consider your remarks in this regard.

shruikan2553 · 27-09-2014 12:34am

J C wrote: »

I obviously hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church ... but I cannot condone in silence, what you say.
The priests and nuns that you talk of have largely given lives of great service and self-less sacrifice to their communities ... and now at the end of their days, I think it is quite churlish to begrudge them the where-with-all to live out what is left of their old age with dignity - and if that has to be funded from property sales, then I say, so be it.
I may have some theological differences with Roman Catholicism, but I have no issue with older priests and nuns living out their old age in the dignity that they undoubtedly deserve - and I would hope that you might re-consider your remarks in this regard.

When nuns and priests show dignity to their victims we can consider if they deserve it.

J C · 27-09-2014 12:54am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

When nuns and priests show dignity to their victims we can consider if they deserve it.

Laying the sins of a tiny minority at the doors of the vast majority is the same a blaming all Atheists for the outrages and injustices of Atheistic Communism ... it's simply incorrrect and unjustifiable.

The 'guilty' priests and nuns have been largely punished for their transgressions ... and it would be quite unjust to punish the innocent for the sin of the guilty.

Church Closures

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