Church Closures

Subpopulus

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/sacristan-stages-sit-in-to-keep-popular-drogheda-church-open-1.1941425

I've often wondered whether catholic churches would start closing with church attendance rates falling so dramatically. Seems like this has started. All across the countryside there are hundreds of abandoned protestant churches that were shut from about the forties to the eighties. C of I numbers have more or less bottomed out so they haven't had to close churches for a long time. There's also a lot of Wesleyan and Methodist chapels about, given that they're more or less extinct across most of Ireland.

It looks likely that as church attendance continues to trickle downwards, and vocations fall off, that more catholic churches will be shutting doors. I think vocations will probably be the main cause rather than attendance - it won't be possible for elderly priests to say mass multiple times in different churches across a parish on a sunday, so they'll probably have to 'rationalise' their masses, to use a businessy term.

More interestingly for me, as an architect, is what's going to become of these empty church buildings. A lot of them have rather nice architectural features that can't be interfered with, and they don't really lend themselves to uses other than as places of worship. There's a lot of examples of churches being turned into offices and homes, with varying degrees of success - look at St. Georges Church in Dublin. A lot of old C of I chapels have been made into village arts centres and the like, but they usually make for rubbish theatres.
You have Christchurch in Cork, which now a performance venue is fairly well done. There's The Church bar in Dublin, which isn't too bad either. But often they end up as carpet warehouses or the like. There's a Wesleyan Chapel near me that's now a motor factors, and a C of I chapel that's a warehouse for a timber company.

In the new DIT at Grangegorman there's a catholic chapel that was in use up until last year and now it's a student performance area. I think there was a lot of issues about what might be performed there - possible worries among the catholic church that the Drama Soc might put on a production of Gay! The Gay Musical!

Cabaal

This started a good few years ago,

But its not just down to people attending church, its also down to the very fact that they simply don't have the priests to do the masses anymore!
The Augustinian also started shutting a number of church's years ago as they simply don't have the priests anymore to do mass in them.

My hope is that the catholic church in Ireland will mirror what it did in the Netherlands - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Netherlands

Already only 30% odd of the people that identify themselves as catholic in Ireland actually bother to go to mass

robindch

The dutch are showing the world the way forward in dealing with declining congregations:







Not to mention our very own Church

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

Not to mention our very own Church

Oh,
I'm visiting this next time I'm in Dublin!

J C

Cabaal wrote: »

Oh,
I'm visiting this next time I'm in Dublin!

Is this going to be a case of coming to pay ... but staying to pray?:)

Cork boy 55

They should be comverted into Temples to mother-earth(earth labs) where
awakened enlightened free humanoid volunteers can come together to engage in environmental education and activism.
there they will worship environmental scientific atheism in order to establish a sustainable environmental for man and nature on the Earth planet.

Solar temple in northern Germany

J C

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

They should be comverted into Temples to mother-earth(earth labs) where
awakened enlightened free humanoid volunteers can come together to engage in environmental education and activism.
there they will worship environmental scientific atheism in order to establish a sustainable environmental for man and nature on the Earth planet.

Solar temple in northern Germany

... and so it comes full circle ... back to Sun-worship again.

PopePalpatine

It's SOLAR PANELS, not a temple for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake! Or did you just come here to troll?

J C

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's SOLAR PANELS, not a temple for the Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake! Or did you just come here to troll?

I'm not trolling ... it was called a Solar Temple by Cork Boy.

Skrynesaver

In fairness at least I have direct evidence for the sun and without it there would be no life on earth

J C

Skrynesaver wrote: »

In fairness at least I have direct evidence for the sun and without it there would be no life on earth

I also have direct evidence for God ... and without Him there would be neither a Sun nor life nor an Earth.

I'll see your Sun ... and raise you the Earth and all life.:)

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

I also have direct evidence for God ... and without Him there would be neither a Sun nor life nor an Earth.

I'll see your Sun ... and raise you the Earth and all life.:)

I want to ask what this evidence is but I'm afraid of opening pandora's box.

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I want to ask what this evidence is but I'm afraid of opening pandora's box.

You're correct that it could ruin your faith in Atheism allright!!!:)

smokingman

My local delusion building is closing and I can't wait 'til it gets turned into something useful.

J C

smokingman wrote: »

My local delusion building is closing and I can't wait 'til it gets turned into something useful.

I think that you're being a bit hard on atheists by calling the place where you meet a 'delusion building' ...
...and the conversion of church buildings is a 'two way street' ... here is a list of new Churches ... some in converted buildings in Industrial Estates
http://www.dublinchurches.com/cgi-bin/churchdb/churchdb.cgi?Searchterm=Pentecostal

P_1

Well if there's no need for them (from a religious worship perspective) then it does make sense to convert them for other uses. Architecturally, quite a lot of them are stunning buildings.

Links234

P_1 wrote: »

Architecturally, quite a lot of them are stunning buildings.

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

kylith

Whenever I have to attend a church event I generally pass the time by mentally converting the building into a house, then imagining what Kevin McCloud would say about it.

Not all churches are architectural gems though, there was a trend in the 60s/70s for hexagonal ones that could, imo, best be altered with a flamethrower and a JCB.

Peregrinus

Links234 wrote: »

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

The problem is that a lot of them are located in places that have no great need for a museum or concert hall. In the nature of things, the churches that get selected for closure tend to be disproportionately located in depopulated and/or declining areas.

A conversion which is both beautiful and viable can be quite a challenge.

Akrasia

J C wrote: »

I think that you're being a bit hard on atheists by calling the place where you meet a 'delusion building' ...
...and the conversion of church buildings is a 'two way street' ... here is a list of new Churches ... some in converted buildings in Industrial Estates
http://www.dublinchurches.com/cgi-bin/churchdb/churchdb.cgi?Searchterm=Pentecostal

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church (ie, the lame duck church in Ireland that is waiting the last of it's clergy to retire and/or die, but not the historical rc church which had it's hand in crusades and murder and torture and systemic wholesale subjugation of populations)

These new evangelical churches are dangerous because they actually believe and act on the nonsense contained within the bible.

I Heart Internet

The idea that a church can only remain open if there is a resident priest to say mass daily (or weekly) in them is incorrect. Churches belong to the local, resident communities.

I think we've been seeing some, limited, examples of catholic churches - especially those associated with institutions - defunct colleges, mental hospitals, etc being turned to other uses. But I think even the Grangegorman one is still to be used on Sunday morning's for mass.

Very few (I know of precisely zero) parish churches are unused or in danger of being put to alternative uses. A good sprinkling of churches/chapels associated with religious houses have been sold though.

Then you have the example of the Sacred Heart church in Limerick. Was a Jesuit church, sold by them to a property developer, bought back by the Institute of Christ the King - a roman catholic order dedicated to the use of the traditional/latin rites of the sacraments. So really, that church has actually been put back to use in for precisely the same purpose for which it was built.

http://institute-christ-king.ie/

Mr. CooL ICE

I know of a handful of heavy bands that have recorded in disused churches with mobile studio equipment. The cavernous, stoney sound is hard to reproduce in a traditional studio. Even if the buildings aren't converted for specific purposes, they can be still be used for things like this.

Subpopulus

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Then you have the example of the Sacred Heart church in Limerick. Was a Jesuit church, sold by them to a property developer, bought back by the Institute of Christ the King - a roman catholic order dedicated to the use of the traditional/latin rites of the sacraments. So really, that church has actually been put back to use in for precisely the same purpose for which it was built.

http://institute-christ-king.ie/

Likewise you have the Dublin Mosque on the South Circular Road - it used to be a Presbyterian church

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Churches belong to the local, resident communities.

So the schools belong to the church, but the churches belong to the people?

I think the church might disagree.

J C

Links234 wrote: »

Can't disagree there, they're absolutely fantastic and beautiful structures. They could be put to amazing use, and converted into things such as museums, or concert halls, etc.

This is what happened to churches behind the Iron Curtain ... and was enforced by the various Atheistic Secular regimes in these countries at the time.
I can report from a recent visit to one such former atheistic communist country that rumours of the demise of the Christian Church in these countries have been greatly exaggerated. I found vibrant Christian Communities living happily and with mutual respect with their secular neighbours ... with most of the churches restored to their former use and architectural glory ... and I suspect the same will be the eventual out-turn in Ireland.

Piliger

robindch wrote: »

So the schools belong to the church, but the churches belong to the people?

I think the church might disagree.

It is an appalling state of affairs really when you think about it.

In previous centuries the PEOPLE provided the money to the church to acquire the land, or even donated the land directly to build churches/monasteries/nunneries etc.

Then fast forward to the last thirty years and suddenly all of this vastly valuable land is deemed the property of the catholic church. MANY such properties or parts of such properties have been sold off for huge fortunes, often shared by small groups of priests and nuns. It is a shocking disgrace.

J C

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church (ie, the lame duck church in Ireland that is waiting the last of it's clergy to retire and/or die, but not the historical rc church which had it's hand in crusades and murder and torture and systemic wholesale subjugation of populations)

These new evangelical churches are dangerous because they actually believe and act on the nonsense contained within the bible.

Less of the unfounded scaremongering and downright sectarianism please.

Interestingly, this was the type of propaganda used by militant Communists to justify their pillage of church property and the persecution of Christians in so called 'secular socialist republics' behind the Iron Curtain - and, unlike your references to some Medieval Roman Catholic activities ... these secular dictatorships existed very recently indeed in eastern Europe, until they collapsed under their own inefficiency.

I thought that we lived in more enlightened and liberal times ... but the silence of everybody on this thread in the face of your anti-christian diatribes says that Christians need to be ever vigilant and ever ready to counter such unfounded scaremongering.

Calling Christian Churches 'minicults' and 'dangerous' is quite outrageous, insulting and inflammatory.:(
... and it is certainly not the type of remarks one would expect to hear un-opposed in a society that respects tolerance of cultural and religious (and irreligious) diversity.

gctest50

Akrasia wrote: »

This is the problem as I see it. The RC church is on a nosedive, but all these little minicults are popping up everwhere.

These fundamental churches are in many ways worse than the current Irish RC church ...................

That's the problem - it's like the cola vs. diet cola thing

cola - oh noes the sugarz
diet - the sweetners
but but if you only have a little bit and and

best thing is to pour both of them down the toilet where they belong and just drink water

J C

Piliger wrote: »

It is an appalling state of affairs really when you think about it.

In previous centuries the PEOPLE provided the money to the church to acquire the land, or even donated the land directly to build churches/monasteries/nunneries etc.

Then fast forward to the last thirty years and suddenly all of this vastly valuable land is deemed the property of the catholic church. MANY such properties or parts of such properties have been sold off for huge fortunes, often shared by small groups of priests and nuns. It is a shocking disgrace.

I obviously hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church ... but I cannot condone in silence, what you say.
The priests and nuns that you talk of have largely given lives of great service and self-less sacrifice to their communities ... and now at the end of their days, I think it is quite churlish to begrudge them the where-with-all to live out what is left of their old age with dignity - and if that has to be funded from property sales, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.
I may have some theological differences with Roman Catholicism, but I have no issue with older priests and nuns living out their old age in the dignity that they undoubtedly deserve - and I would hope that, in love and respect, you might re-consider your remarks in this regard.

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

I obviously hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church ... but I cannot condone in silence, what you say.
The priests and nuns that you talk of have largely given lives of great service and self-less sacrifice to their communities ... and now at the end of their days, I think it is quite churlish to begrudge them the where-with-all to live out what is left of their old age with dignity - and if that has to be funded from property sales, then I say, so be it.
I may have some theological differences with Roman Catholicism, but I have no issue with older priests and nuns living out their old age in the dignity that they undoubtedly deserve - and I would hope that you might re-consider your remarks in this regard.

When nuns and priests show dignity to their victims we can consider if they deserve it.

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

When nuns and priests show dignity to their victims we can consider if they deserve it.

Laying the sins of a tiny minority at the doors of the vast majority is the same a blaming all Atheists for the outrages and injustices of Atheistic Communism ... it's simply incorrrect and unjustifiable.

The 'guilty' priests and nuns have been largely punished for their transgressions ... and it would be quite unjust to punish the innocent for the sin of the guilty.

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

Laying the sins of a tiny minority at the doors of the vast majority is the same a blaming all Atheists for the outrages and injustices of Atheistic Communism ... it's simply incorrrect and unjustifiable.

The 'guilty' priests and nuns have been largely punished for their transgressions ... and it would be quite unjust to punish the innocent for the sin of the guilty.

No it's not. Atheistic Communism is not something that all Atheists sign up to. There is no club or hierarchy of Atheists. Any group that claims to be Atheist represent only themselves and their members.

They havent been punished. The organisations involved have been very unhelpful with any investigations. The groups claimed to have no money to compensate their victims and yet are able to produce it for themselves.

Piliger

J C wrote: »

I obviously hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church ... but I cannot condone in silence, what you say.
The priests and nuns that you talk of have largely given lives of great service and self-less sacrifice to their communities ... and now at the end of their days, I think it is quite churlish to begrudge them the where-with-all to live out what is left of their old age with dignity

I said nothing whatsoever in my comment. You are just making this up as you go along.

and if that has to be funded from property sales, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.

Totally irrelevant to the point.

I may have some theological differences with Roman Catholicism, but I have no issue with older priests and nuns living out their old age in the dignity that they undoubtedly deserve - and I would hope that, in love and respect, you might re-consider your remarks in this regard.

I imagine you enjoyed that. But it failed totally to deal with the subject I wrote about.

Piliger

shruikan2553 wrote: »

No it's not. Atheistic Communism is not something that all Atheists sign up to. There is no club or hierarchy of Atheists. Any group that claims to be Atheist represent only themselves and their members.

They havent been punished. The organisations involved have been very unhelpful with any investigations. The groups claimed to have no money to compensate their victims and yet are able to produce it for themselves.

Exactly. A significant percentage of the church priests are now known to have abused, raped and assaulted our children and another significant percentage of them enabled and facilitated this abuse and rape by hiding their actions and knowingly protecting them from justice.

Meanwhile there have been many sales of land by small sub groups of the church, such as nun groups who have generated many many millions of euros for as few as a dozen members.

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

No it's not. Atheistic Communism is not something that all Atheists sign up to. There is no club or hierarchy of Atheists. Any group that claims to be Atheist represent only themselves and their members.

Atheism certainly organised itself within all of the mechanisms of the state in eastern Europe less than a generation ago ... so please do not insult our intelligence with special pleading that Atheists are some kind of exception to all vice and only capable of collective virtue.
Atheists don't have a monopoly on either vice nor virtue, no more than Theists ... and making highly prejudicial remarks against all Christian Churches and their leaders is just as un-justified as blaming all Atheists for the pernicious regimes of Atheistic Communism.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They havent been punished. The organisations involved have been very unhelpful with any investigations. The groups claimed to have no money to compensate their victims and yet are able to produce it for themselves.

I don't know the details ... but it strikes me as quite churlish to demand that old ladies and gentlemen be metaphorically 'roughed up' and let die on the side of the street, to satisfy a desire for vengeance for crimes that they never committed.

J C

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. A significant percentage of the church priests are now known to have abused, raped and assaulted our children and another significant percentage of them enabled and facilitated this abuse and rape by hiding their actions and knowingly protecting them from justice.

What is the 'significant percentage' you speak of?
I'm sure it is no more significant than the tiny minority of Atheists who made life a living dreary Hell for most of the population of eastern Europe (including other Atheists) for most of the 20th Century!!!

Piliger wrote: »

Meanwhile there have been many sales of land by small sub groups of the church, such as nun groups who have generated many many millions of euros for as few as a dozen members.

Perhaps some Roman Catholics (if there are any on the Boards) can comment knowledgeably on this.
My limited understanding is that most of this money is in trust funds to continue the mission of the Roman Catholic Church in all of its ministries ... as well a providing care and maintenance to nuns and priests in their retirement.
... and that would appear to be a quite legitimate usage of this money.

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

Atheism certainly organised itself within all of the mechanisms of the state in eastern Europe less than a generation ago ... so please do not insult our intelligence with special pleading that Atheists are some kind of exception to all vice and only capable of collective virtue.
Atheists don't have a monopoly on either vice nor virtue, no more than Theists ... and making highly prejudicial remarks against all Christian Churches and their leaders is just as un-justified as blaming all Atheists for the pernicious regimes of Atheistic Communism.

Atheists do not sign up to any group to become an atheist. Communism and atheism are two different things.
I said nothing of Christian churches, I commented on the RCC and organisations affiliated with it.

Prejudice - preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Did I imagine the covering up of child abuse by the hierarchy of the RCC. the selling of babies and terrible treatment of women and children in the mother and child homes? If not then I don't see how I am being prejudice.

J C wrote: »

I don't know the details ... but it strikes me as quite churlish to demand that old ladies and gentlemen be metaphorically 'roughed up' and let die on the side of the street, to satisfy a desire for vengeance for crimes that they never committed.

They didnt seem to mind letting people die. Nobody is talking about letting them to die anyway. Their organisation did commit crimes. Can you really think it is right for them to say one minute they cant help and then all of a sudden they are able to get money when it suits them?

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Atheists do not sign up to any group to become an atheist. Communism and atheism are two different things.
I said nothing of Christian churches, I commented on the RCC and organisations affiliated with it.

Atheists can certainly work to common purpose ... just like any other group of people who hold a common viewpoint, like a church.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Prejudice - preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Prejudice can also arise based on experience with a minority of a community being applied to the entire community ... the so-called 'tarring with one stick' of everyone.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Did I imagine the covering up of child abuse by the hierarchy of the RCC. the selling of babies and terrible treatment of women and children in the mother and child homes? If not then I don't see how I am being prejudice.

... and I didn't imagine the enslavement slaughter of untold millions at the hands of Atheistic Communism ... but it would be prejudice (and totally wrong) for me to apply this experience as a means of judging all Atheists.
Ditto with members of any Church.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They didnt seem to mind letting people die. Nobody is talking about letting them to die anyway. Their organisation did commit crimes. Can you really think it is right for them to say one minute they cant help and then all of a sudden they are able to get money when it suits them?

I think that morally and legally speaking all individuals and organisations can be held liable for their crimes ... but it isn't morally justifiable to hold innocent people to be responsible for the crimes of somebody else.

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

Atheists can certainly work to common purpose ... just like any other group of people who hold a common viewpoint, like a church.

Prejudice can also arise based on experience with a minority of a community being applied to the entire community ... the so-called 'tarring with one stick' of everyone.

... and I didn't imagine the enslavement slaughter of untold millions at the hands of Atheistic Communism ... but it would be prejudice (and totally wrong) for me to apply this experience as a means of judging all Atheists.
Ditto with members of any Church.


I think that morally and legally speaking all individuals and organisations can be held liable for their crimes ... but it isn't morally justifiable to hold innocent people to be responsible for the crimes of somebody else.

Atheists can work to a common purpose. Is eastern European communism the purpose of atheism?
Are atheists all members of a communist group?

Theists were part of the KKK but to keep talking about theistic racism is pointless because they are separate things.

Piliger

J C wrote: »

Atheism certainly organised itself within all of the mechanisms of the state in eastern Europe less than a generation ago ... so please do not insult our intelligence with special pleading that Atheists are some kind of exception to all vice and only capable of collective virtue.

Totally untrue. There were no organised groups of Atheists in the eastern Europe at all at any time. Name us one.

Atheists don't have a monopoly on either vice nor virtue, no more than Theists ... and making highly prejudicial remarks against all Christian Churches and their leaders is just as un-justified as blaming all Atheists for the pernicious regimes of Atheistic Communism.

Well at least we try to exhibit an ounce of accuracy in our comments which you appear to have no interest. Your consistently inaccurate and totally false claims about communist regimes being an example.

I don't know the details ... but it strikes me as quite churlish to demand that old ladies and gentlemen be metaphorically 'roughed up' and let die on the side of the street, to satisfy a desire for vengeance for crimes that they never committed.

Again a load of hyperbole with no grounds to support it.

Piliger

J C wrote: »

Atheists can certainly work to common purpose ... just like any other group of people who hold a common viewpoint, like a church.

You say so but have no evidence of it whatsoever.

... and I didn't imagine the enslavement slaughter of untold millions at the hands of Atheistic Communism ... but it would be prejudice (and totally wrong) for me to apply this experience as a means of judging all Atheists.
Ditto with members of any Church.

More unsubstantiated and totally inaccurate and disingenuous characterisation of communism in eastern europe. You appear to think that if you keep saying this same nonsense about communism and eastern europe that it will make it any more true. It won't. It is a fiction.

I think that morally and legally speaking all individuals and organisations can be held liable for their crimes ... but it isn't morally justifiable to hold innocent people to be responsible for the crimes of somebody else.

I agree 100%. But people who facilitate and enable a crime and conspire to hide criminals are no longer innocent. They are culpably guilty, both criminally and morally. Not that morality seems to play much of a role in the catholic church when it comes to their own lives.

Piliger

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Atheists can work to a common purpose. Is eastern European communism the purpose of atheism?
Are atheists all members of a communist group?

He is under a sad illusion that saying the same fiction over and over again will make it credible. It won't.

Communism had nothing to do with either religion or non religion. Communism actually never ever existed in either the USSR or eastern europe.

None of the organisations or structures of eastern europe had any theistic or Atheistic role or rules or standards or practices and many members of those organisations were theists.

It is also well established that Stalin was a theist and no evidence at all that he was an Atheist. That he prevented it playing any role in society is a completely separate matter.

krudler

J C wrote: »

I also have direct evidence for God ... and without Him there would be neither a Sun nor life nor an Earth.

I'll see your Sun ... and raise you the Earth and all life.:)

No you don't, nobody has.

TwoShedsJackson

Piliger wrote: »

You say so but have no evidence of it whatsoever.

Pretty much the default response to any of the nonsense JC comes out with.

PopePalpatine

J C wrote: »

I think that morally and legally speaking all individuals and organisations can be held liable for their crimes ... but it isn't morally justifiable to hold innocent people to be responsible for the crimes of somebody else.

Unless in the case of "original sin", of course. :rolleyes:

J C

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Atheists can work to a common purpose. Is eastern European communism the purpose of atheism?
Are atheists all members of a communist group?

Theists were part of the KKK but to keep talking about theistic racism is pointless because they are separate things.

That's precisely my point ... nobody should generalise and apply the crimes of a minority within a category of people like Theists or Atheists to every person within that category.

shruikan2553

J C wrote: »

That's precisely my point ... nobody should generalise and apply the crimes of a minority within a category of people like Theists or Atheists to every person within that category.

Except it was a minority protected by their bosses. The organisation itself was involved, it wasnt just 1 or 2 people. It was people protected by the bishops and cardinals as well.

krudler

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Unless in the case of "original sin", of course. :rolleyes:

Punishing people for what others before them did is the basis for Christianity after all :pac:

Piliger

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Except it was a minority protected by their bosses. The organisation itself was involved, it wasnt just 1 or 2 people. It was people protected by the bishops and cardinals as well.

And let's not be naive. These bishops and cardinals do not run their offices and make decisions alone in their tiny bedsits. Their advisers, secretaries, assistants, deputies are all part of the network and structures that took part in the enabling and facilitation of this appalling abuse and rape of our children. This was a significant proportion of the whole organisation in Ireland and the astonishing and disgusting thing is that we have such an organisation still operating in the country ! If it were ANY other organisation of any kind it would be banned and dismantled.

J C

Piliger wrote: »

Totally untrue. There were no organised groups of Atheists in the eastern Europe at all at any time. Name us one.

All of these states prounounced themselves to be secular atheistic republics ... and they promptly started suppressing all religions within their borders. I accept that this isn't the way all Atheists behave ... but many of the deeply anti-religious expressions on this thread don't give me much comfort that some people have learned anything from history.

Piliger wrote: »

Well at least we try to exhibit an ounce of accuracy in our comments which you appear to have no interest. Your consistently inaccurate and totally false claims about communist regimes being an example.

It is a fact that the leaders of Communism were anti-religion atheists ... and they acted in accordance with their ideas when they suppressed churches and persecuted Christians and other Theists.

Piliger wrote: »

Again a load of hyperbole with no grounds to support it.

It's not hyperbole ... I'm merely reacting to you guys loudly condemning the RCC for selling property to pay for the care and health expenses of elderly nuns and priests.

Piliger

J C wrote: »

All of these states prounounced themselves to be secular atheistic republics ...

No they didn't. Again with the made up stuff.

and they promptly started suppressing all religions within their borders.

Again they didn't. Evidence ?

I accept that this isn't the way all Atheists behave ... but many of the deeply anti-religious expressions on this thread don't give me much comfort that some people have learned anything from history.

We are all anti religious here. hence the Forum Title. We have regrettably learnt from history how disaster religion has been.

It is a fact that the leaders of Communism were anti-religion atheists ... and they acted in accordance with their ideas when they suppressed churches and persecuted Christians and other Theists.

Nope. They suppressed religious involvement in politics. Clearly you know nothing about Stalin for a start.

It's not hyperbole ... I'm merely reacting to you guys loudly condemning the RCC for selling property to pay for the care and health expenses of elderly nuns and priests.

With baseless hyperbole just like your other commy nonsense.