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Football ranking table

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    #272
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Laoisman, does it make a huge difference to the overall amount of points exchanged if the "expected" result occurs after a replay? I know if it's a draw, the 2 teams will get closer together in points, but doesn't that just increase the points gained by the favorite team in the 2nd match?

    Say team A is ranked a few spots ahead of B, and are mild favorites to beat team B at a neutral venue. The match ends a draw, so team A loses a few points to team B, the gap between them narrows.

    Since the gap between them is narrowed, does this mean team A gain more points from winning the replay than had they just beaten them the first day? Does it cancel out the points lost due to the draw? After drawing then losing, does team B end up with more or fewer points than they started with?


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    #273
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    They were probably pretty close after both losing in the semi finals last year, so it wouldn't take much for them to swap places, no matter what the division.

    Aye I get that but it just seems a bit harsh on Mayo and that's coming from a Tyrone man.


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    #274
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    Laoisman, does it make a huge difference to the overall amount of points exchanged if the "expected" result occurs after a replay? I know if it's a draw, the 2 teams will get closer together in points, but doesn't that just increase the points gained by the favorite team in the 2nd match?

    Say team A is ranked a few spots ahead of B, and are mild favorites to beat team B at a neutral venue. The match ends a draw, so team A loses a few points to team B, the gap between them narrows.

    Since the gap between them is narrowed, does this mean team A gain more points from winning the replay than had they just beaten them the first day? Does it cancel out the points lost due to the draw? After drawing then losing, does team B end up with more or fewer points than they started with?

    Yes, you are correct in what you say. Team A would gain more from winning the replay than if they had won the first day, and effectively Team B are "penalised" for having taking the game to a replay. It's not ideal, but it doesn't hugely affect the points transferred either. I think that you asked me a similar question before......http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96764469&postcount=255


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    #275
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Jayop wrote: »
    Hard to believe that 2 wins in Div2 can move Tyrone above Mayo who have faced much harder opponents in Div1.

    As already mentioned, both teams were particularly high in rating points after their semi-final appearances. Tyrone do have an advantage of collecting points as they are in a weaker division and more likely to win their games (although the total points that they will collect will be low due to their vastly superior rating points) whereas Mayo could lose a lot of points if they go through the league without a win.

    Conversely, given the rating points difference between each team and the other teams in their respective divisions, each loss for Tyrone would be much more costly than a loss for Mayo.


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    #276
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    laoisman11 wrote: »
    Yes, you are correct in what you say. Team A would gain more from winning the replay than if they had won the first day, and effectively Team B are "penalised" for having taking the game to a replay. It's not ideal, but it doesn't hugely affect the points transferred either. I think that you asked me a similar question before......http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96764469&postcount=255

    I remember that question alright, I didn't think you could lose points though by effectively getting a "better" result.


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    #277
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Doesn't seem too out of whack that a team with a good chance of winning D2 could pass out a team with a good chance of being relegated from D1 during the league.


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    #278
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    No system is perfect and people will always have grievances.

    Look no further than the FIFA rankings.
    Belgium are top and have been knocking around number 1 for quite a while yet haven't done ANYTHING of note.
    At least these rankings have never been that extreme.


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    #279
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    gilberto_eire wrote: »
    No system is perfect and people will always have grievances.

    Look no further than the FIFA rankings.
    Belgium are top and have been knocking around number 1 for quite a while yet haven't done ANYTHING of note.
    At least these rankings have never been that extreme.

    No grievance here. I suppose it makes sense that the two wins would push us over them given how close we were before the league started.

    In fact it's a pretty accurate representation of how you'd expect most championship games to play out possibly with the exception of Tyrone being favoured over Mayo.


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    #280
    Syferus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭Syferus


    Jayop wrote: »
    No grievance here. I suppose it makes sense that the two wins would push us over them given how close we were before the league started.

    In fact it's a pretty accurate representation of how you'd expect most championship games to play out possibly with the exception of Tyrone being favoured over Mayo.

    If be surprised if we'd (Roscommon) be underdogs against Down or Kildare given how one-side those matches were last year.. rankings reflect a period of time greater than the here and now. But when it comes to any match all that matters is the here and now.


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    #281
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Syferus wrote: »
    If be surprised if we'd (Roscommon) be underdogs against Down or Kildare given how one-side those matches were last year.. rankings reflect a period of time greater than the here and now. But when it comes to any match all that matters is the here and now.

    But you're rated well above Down so that's correct. Kildare are a bit of a misnomer.


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    #282
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Jayop wrote: »
    But you're rated well above Down so that's correct. Kildare are a bit of a misnomer.

    Hammering the teams around them and Cork in the championship last year is the reason while the hammerings fro Dublin and Kerry didn't hurt too much as they were ranked so far ahead. If they can avoid defeat in the League they should stay where they are but any defeats from division 3 opposition will hurt badly.


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    #283
    jimbo32123
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭jimbo32123


    Donegal have barely moved after scoring 2 major wins! is this due to Cork and Downs poor championship last season and there low standing?


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    #284
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    As other posters have said this ranking is more useful when you look at it in the long term.


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    #285
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    jimbo32123 wrote: »
    Donegal have barely moved after scoring 2 major wins! is this due to Cork and Downs poor championship last season and there low standing?

    I'd imagine it's more that the teams still above them are either also winning or were so far ahead already so as not to be caught with two wins.


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    #286
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    A minor bug in the system meant that the ratings calculated after the 2nd weekend of the league were slightly incorrect (the results of Round 1 of the league were entered twice; these are corrected below)

    After Round 3 of the league, there was a lot of movement in the rankings:
    • The big mover in rating points was not Roscommon, surprisingly, but Cavan following their impressive win over Meath
    • It is very tight in the 75 - 79 zone of the rating points, which is the main reason for Sligo to lose 6 ranking places after a narrow loss to Offaly

    #|Δ Rank|Team|Rating point|Δ Rating
    1| steady| Dublin | 110.89 | 0.07
    2| steady| Kerry | 99.24 | -0.45
    3| increase| Donegal | 98.98 | 1.90
    4| decrease| Tyrone | 97.27 | -0.31
    5| increase| Monaghan | 95.92 | -0.31
    6| decrease| Mayo | 95.09 | -1.45
    7| steady| Kildare | 93.11 | -0.30
    8| increase| Galway | 90.35 | 1.77
    9| increase| Roscommon | 89.38 | 3.30
    10| decrease| Cork | 88.39 | -3.06
    11| decrease| Derry | 87.07 | -1.37
    12| decrease| Fermanagh | 85.44 | -2.49
    13| increase| Armagh | 81.15 | 2.44
    14| decrease| Meath | 79.72 | -3.54
    15| decrease| Tipperary | 79.54 | -0.05
    16| increase| Westmeath | 78.60 | 0.04
    17| increase| Cavan | 78.55 | 3.82
    18| steady| Down | 77.27 | 0.00
    19| steady| Longford | 77.22 | 0.06
    20| steady| Clare | 77.12 | 1.78
    21| decrease| Sligo | 76.98 | -2.13
    22| increase| Offaly | 75.50 | 2.36
    23| increase| Antrim | 74.54 | 0.58
    24| decrease| Wexford | 74.26 | -0.06
    25| decrease| Laois | 74.24 | -0.32
    26| increase| Louth | 72.44 | 1.32
    27| decrease| Limerick | 70.08 | -1.76
    28| steady| Wicklow | 62.83 | -1.21
    29| steady| Leitrim | 61.97 | -0.46
    30| increase| London | 58.76 | -0.07
    31| decrease| Carlow | 58.71 | -3.33
    32| increase| Waterford | 58.57 | 3.23
    33| decrease| New York | 57.17 | 0.00


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    #287
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Donegal's impressive win over Mayo has lifted them over Tyrone despite our win over Laois. You can really see the difference in Div1 sides beating each other over Div2 sides beating each other.


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    #288
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Jayop wrote: »
    Donegal's impressive win over Mayo has lifted them over Tyrone despite our win over Laois. You can really see the difference in Div1 sides beating each other over Div2 sides beating each other.

    Tyrone would not have picked up any rating points for beating Laois as there are approx. 25 rating points between the sides. I might be (ever-so-slightly!) biased in thinking that Laois are artificially low, but it does certainly help to be playing, and beating, teams at similar or higher rating points than your own team in order to gain rating points.


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    #289
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    laoisman11 wrote: »
    Tyrone would not have picked up any rating points for beating Laois as there are approx. 25 rating points between the sides. I might be (ever-so-slightly!) biased in thinking that Laois are artificially low, but it does certainly help to be playing, and beating, teams at similar or higher rating points than your own team in order to gain rating points.

    No offense to you either but Donegal beating Mayo should be worth more points than Tyrone beating Laois.

    And I agree that Laois are too low on the table. There's no way there's 24 better teams than you in the country.


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    #290
    Syferus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭Syferus


    Remember the Roscommon-Down game was a neutral venue tie..


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    #291
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    We should leap frog Donegal after that weekend.


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    #292
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Main talking points after Round 4 of the NFL:
    • Cavan gained the most rating points (2.64) and climb 4 places in the rankings to 13th, their highest position since June 2014
    • Armagh, meanwhile, drop 5 places to 18th, their lowest position since June 2014 (a bittersweet coincidence!)
    • Tyrone rejoin the top 3 for the first time since March 2014, while Roscommon break into the top 8 for the first time since June 2004.
    • However, the record breakers are Clare, who have not seen 16th place since 2001!

    P.S. The Roscommon - Down game was a neutral venue tie, otherwise Roscommon would not have received very many rating points for beating Down

    #|Δ Rank|Team|Rating|Δ Rating
    1 | = | Dublin | 110.89 | 0.00
    2 | = | Kerry | 100.71 | 1.47
    3 | ▲ | Tyrone | 97.99 | 0.72
    4 | ▼ | Donegal | 97.51 | -1.47
    5 | ▲ | Mayo | 96.67 | 1.58
    6 | ▼ | Monaghan | 94.34 | -1.58
    7 | = | Kildare | 93.11 | 0.00
    8 | ▲ | Roscommon | 89.81 | 0.43
    9 | ▼ | Galway | 89.29 | -1.06
    10 | = | Cork | 88.39 | 0.00
    11 | = | Derry | 86.35 | -0.72
    12 | = | Fermanagh | 86.01 | 0.57
    13 | ▲ 4 | Cavan | 81.19 | 2.64
    14 | = | Meath | 80.78 | 1.06
    15 | = | Tipperary | 80.64 | 1.10
    16 | ▲ 4 | Clare | 79.59 | 2.47
    17 | ▲ 2 | Longford | 78.70 | 1.48
    18 | ▼ 5 | Armagh | 78.51 | -2.64
    19 | ▼ | Down | 76.84 | -0.43
    20 | ▼ 4 | Westmeath | 76.13 | -2.47
    21 | = | Sligo | 75.50 | -1.48
    22 | ▲ | Antrim | 74.54 | 0.00
    23 | ▼ | Offaly | 74.40 | -1.10
    24 | = | Wexford | 74.26 | 0.00
    25 | = | Laois | 73.67 | -0.57
    26 | ▲ | Limerick | 70.08 | 0.00
    27 | ▼ | Louth | 69.89 | -2.55
    28 | ▲ | Leitrim | 64.52 | 2.55
    29 | ▼ | Wicklow | 60.92 | -1.91
    30 | ▲ | Carlow | 60.62 | 1.91
    31 | ▼ | London | 58.76 | 0.00
    32 | = | Waterford | 58.57 | 0.00
    33 | = | New York | 57.17 | 0.00


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    #293
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    Tyrone were in 3rd after R2 this year.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98646227&postcount=266

    ;)


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    #294
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Jayop wrote: »
    Tyrone were in 3rd after R2 this year.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98646227&postcount=266

    ;)

    Me bad! Have to update the code, it probably compares to previous years only. Thanks.


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    #295
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Why did Kildare lose nothing for winning at home against Limerick but lost 0.3 points for winning away to Longford who are ranked higher than Limerick?


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    #296
    HanaleiJ5N
    Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭HanaleiJ5N


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    Why did Kildare lose nothing for winning at home against Limerick but lost 0.3 points for winning away to Longford who are ranked higher than Limerick?

    Team's don't lose anything for winning.....
    Most likely a typo. Believe me, very easily done when typing up these tables. Don't think I've ever successfully typed up a table in the hurling ranking thread without making at least one typo!


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    #297
    Jayop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    TBF beating poor Longford should come with some sort of penalty.


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    #298
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Crazy to think there's such a gap between Dublin and Cork in the rankings that Dublin got nothing for beating them well.


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    #299
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Jayop wrote: »
    Tyrone were in 3rd after R2 this year.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98646227&postcount=266

    ;)
    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    Why did Kildare lose nothing for winning at home against Limerick but lost 0.3 points for winning away to Longford who are ranked higher than Limerick?

    I checked these out, and both were due to the error in the calculation after the 2nd weekend i.e. Tyrone didn't get to 3rd at that time, and Kildare were incorrectly 0.3 points too high after Rd 2, the reduction by 0.3 points was to correct that.


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    #300
    laoisman11
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    The big movers after Round 5:
    • Cork gained the most rating points (3.14) in their win over Monaghan
    • Sligo jumped 4 places following an excellent win against table-toppers Kildare
    • Roscommon are into the top 6 for the first time since March 2004
    • Down are at their lowest level since September 2007

    #|Δ | Rank|Team|Δ Rating
    1 | = | Dublin | 110.89 | 0.00
    2 | = | Kerry | 101.81 | 1.10
    3 | = | Tyrone | 97.99 | 0.00
    4 | ▲ | Mayo | 95.57 | -1.10
    5 | ▼ | Donegal | 95.24 | -2.27
    6 | ▲ 2 | Roscommon | 92.08 | 2.27
    7 | ▲ 3 | Cork | 91.53 | 3.14
    8 | ▼ 2 | Monaghan | 91.20 | -3.14
    9 | ▼ 2 | Kildare | 90.11 | -3.00
    10 | ▼ | Galway | 88.21 | -1.08
    11 | = | Derry | 85.08 | -1.27
    12 | ▲ | Cavan | 84.16 | 2.97
    13 | ▼ | Fermanagh | 83.04 | -2.97
    14 | ▲ 3 | Longford | 81.24 | 2.54
    15 | ▼ | Meath | 80.78 | 0.00
    16 | ▲ 2 | Armagh | 79.59 | 1.08
    17 | ▲ 4 | Sligo | 78.50 | 3.00
    18 | ▼ 3 | Tipperary | 78.10 | -2.54
    19 | ▼ 3 | Clare | 77.57 | -2.02
    20 | = | Westmeath | 77.47 | 1.34
    21 | ▼ 2| Down | 76.84 | 0.00
    22 | ▲ | Offaly | 76.42 | 2.02
    23 | ▲ 2 | Laois | 74.94 | 1.27
    24 | ▼ 2 | Antrim | 74.54 | 0.00
    25 | ▼ | Wexford | 74.51 | 0.25
    26 | ▲ | Louth | 70.75 | 0.86
    27 | ▼ | Limerick | 68.74 | -1.34
    28 | = | Leitrim | 65.44 | 0.92
    29 | = | Wicklow | 60.67 | -0.25
    30 | = | Carlow | 59.76 | -0.86
    31 | ▲ | Waterford | 58.57 | 0.00
    32 | ▼ | London | 57.84 | -0.92
    33 | = | New York | 57.17 | 0.00


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    #301
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    I know you posted it before, but what's the record ranking points total ever? Kerry had it in the 70s.

    And when are Dublin likely to achieve it? Assuming we win our remaining games?


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