The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books

23-10-2013 10:33am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

- From AFFC I was lead to believe that the entire plot was started by Littlefinger. He admitted that he and Lysa Tully plotted to kill Jon Arryn which triggered a long chain of events. In the final chapter Varys claims to Ser Kevin Lannister that his plan is in motion. Varys and Littlefinger are certainly not friends - who is in control of the greater scheme of things here?

I think it will come down to both Littlefinger's & Vary's plots regarding the throne. Like any warfare throughout history a lot of conquerors used the tactic of wearing the opposition out before making their move I think that is how GRRM is trying to portray these two puppet masters. One thing is for certain everything will/has to become more clear in WOW. I'd say as all this unfolds the others in the North will also start making their own move. While this is all going on Dany will be coming back to Westeros with some pissed off pirates, Barry(hopefully) & her dragons.

Hurry up George for **** sake!

Mr Freeze · 23-10-2013 10:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Barry(hopefully)............

A fools hope! He aint coming back

23-10-2013 11:08am

Mr Freeze wrote: »

A fools hope! He aint coming back

I'm clutching at strays ain't I?

:(

Mr Freeze · 23-10-2013 11:23am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm clutching at strays ain't I? :(

Be great if he did, but there are too many POV characters now, and too many in Meereen about to do battle, so they can't all make it out.

And assuming, that Greyjoy & Tyrion both join Dany, then that's 4 POVs in her storyline. I think 2 will die during the battle, but maybe just Barriston, as the Ironborn army might not play ball with out Victarion, unless Euron or the other brother show up too.

intellectual dosser · 23-10-2013 11:35am

I've started looking up WOW and (according to wiki) there are POV chapters from Arya, Sansa, Arianne, Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Tyrion and Barristen. Is it possible that we could have another Danaery-less book??

As Mr. Freeze mentions we are flooded with POV people in Meereen. Personally I hope Victarion gets whacked and the rest remain.

23-10-2013 11:38am

O I agree with Mr. Freeze as I usually do

but I'm living in hope... stupid hope though as they can't have that many POVs there as when the same happened in KLs we know what happened there...

The only person I can be sure of being there at the very end as I posted before is probably Bran. Anyone else is game ball to be honest.

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I've started looking up WOW and (according to wiki) there are POV chapters from Arya, Sansa, Arianne, Aeron, Theon, Victarion, Tyrion and Barristen. Is it possible that we could have another Danaery-less book??

As Mr. Freeze mentions we are flooded with POV people in Meereen. Personally I hope Victarion gets whacked and the rest remain.

http://the-artifice.com/the-winds-of-winter-12-major-plot-points-to-anticipate/

Good article I posted earlier!

Mr Freeze · 23-10-2013 11:43am

And do you think Daenerys will make it back to Westeros in the next book?

Given her pervious actions, I doubt it, I don't even think she is going to start in that direction.

I suspect Asshai will feature in her storyline.

"to go west you must go east" and all that.

23-10-2013 12:06pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

And do you think Daenerys will make it back to Westeros in the next book?

Given her pervious actions, I doubt it, I don't even think she is going to start in that direction.

I suspect Asshai will feature in her storyline.

"to go west you must go east" and all that.

Decent call but I don't see the Greyjoys wanting to **** around as much so it really depends on them. They have a huge part to play to that I have no doubt.

Mr Freeze · 23-10-2013 12:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Decent call but I don't see the Greyjoys wanting to **** around as much so it really depends on them. They have a huge part to play to that I have no doubt.

No they will want to go straight back, if Victarion and Dany team up.

But they aren't going to get along, she might like the tough, dirty merc types, but Victarion is coming over to marry her, take her army and Dragons and do as he pleases, taking the throne and killing Euron.

She won't react well to being married again, especially to someone who only wants what she has, and will want to call all the shots.

intellectual dosser · 23-10-2013 12:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

http://the-artifice.com/the-winds-of-winter-12-major-plot-points-to-anticipate/

Good article I posted earlier!

Thanks for this, makes me ache for more. Very strange after my experience with AFFC.

23-10-2013 4:14pm

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Thanks for this, makes me ache for more. Very strange after my experience with AFFC.

It's by far the best article I've read on WOW. The author clearly has gone through the books 2-3 times so knows his stuff!

Sleepy · 24-10-2013 3:11pm

I can see Dany not needing the Greyjoys at all. Their fleet aren't going to be able to carry her army across to Westeros (they're mainly longships). The Slave revolt mentioned in ADWD could lead to her getting a different fleet...

Mr Freeze · 24-10-2013 3:18pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I can see Dany not needing the Greyjoys at all. Their fleet aren't going to be able to carry her army across to Westeros (they're mainly longships). The Slave revolt mentioned in ADWD could lead to her getting a different fleet...

Do we have rough numbers of how big the Ironborn fleet is, and how many men they have?

And then how big could Daenerys's army potentially be after uniting the various factions?

intellectual dosser · 24-10-2013 3:33pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Do we have rough numbers of how big the Ironborn fleet is, and how many men they have?

And then how big could Daenerys's army potentially be after uniting the various factions?

Around 55 ships according to the most recent Victarion chapters, but there was no confirmation that the rest of the fleet (30-40) are definitely lost. No idea on numbers of sailors.

Victarion took over a few trading ships on the way to Meereen too, as much to maintain their secrecy than anything. They wont made good warships, but their crews make good gestures to the Drowned God

Sleepy · 24-10-2013 4:04pm

By the time she makes her move, Dany's army is likely to consist of:

The Unsullied (10k men or so)
The Second Sons
The Stormcrows
Her Freedmen
Barristans Knights (only a small no. in fairness)

and a ****ing massive Kalasar once she takes her revenge on Khal Jhaqo (and possiby Khal Pono too...)

That's not going to fit on 55 ships.

Mr Freeze · 24-10-2013 4:16pm

Sleepy wrote: »

That's not going to fit on 55 ships.

Maybe you can march there. Totally fecking mad idea here, one I don't subscribe to myself, but have thought of it the odd time. What if its their world is a globe too, and the quickest way west could be to go east, for all we know, The Land of Always Winter could be connected to the Essos land mass.

Or sail from somewhere in the far east, landing on the western shore of Westeros somewhere.

There is no full map of the Essos land mass as far as I know.

intellectual dosser · 24-10-2013 4:24pm

I personally don't think Dany matches up with the Iron Islanders. Victarion wants to marry Dany and have the power and glory for himself, Dany will see right through this. I also don't subscribe to the power of the threat they pose - their recent history is riddled with defeat, including one by Stannis in a sea battle, which they are supposedly masters of.

If they do join forces Victarion will have to bend the knee, something he won't be too fond of doing after bending to Aeron.

intellectual dosser · 24-10-2013 4:35pm

Just reading about the Iron Rebellion on A Wiki of Ice and Fire - Jorah Mormont earned his Knighthood based on his bravery at the Battle of Pyke!! Could make an interesting encounter between him and Victarion.

Sleepy · 24-10-2013 5:01pm

If Dany's armies are to make Westeros, I reckon it'll be with the Volantine fleet.

Stumbled on this and have lost an hour or so to it this afternoon. Excellent blog that makes far more sense of the Meerenese Knot than most (and, if correct, raised ADWD to the level of some of the most complex fantasy ever written!): http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/

GerB40 · 25-10-2013 2:50am

Sleepy wrote: »

If Dany's armies are to make Westeros, I reckon it'll be with the Volantine fleet.

Stumbled on this and have lost an hour or so to it this afternoon. Excellent blog that makes far more sense of the Meerenese Knot than most (and, if correct, raised ADWD to the level of some of the most complex fantasy ever written!): http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/

Sheeett that Jon Snow one was interesting to say the least. The Hardhome situation didn't seem as important in the books but it's obviously hugely important to Jons decision making. I always wondered how Jon Snow would come back to life/stay alive after the attack at the end of ADWD. Now Im thinking he mightnt come back at all. It's the perfect twist for GRRM. A seemingly untouchable character gettin knocked off out of nowhere. He has history with these twists...

Sleepy · 25-10-2013 9:12am

It was the stuff on Dany's arc that blew me away tbh. I've read the book twice and still hadn't picked up on the subtleties of the Meereneese politics that flip the entire arc on it's head...

Mr Freeze · 25-10-2013 9:25am

Dang that Meereenese blog is blocked here at work. Time to read it on my phone.

25-10-2013 10:24am

Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.

Mr Freeze · 25-10-2013 10:28am

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.

I hope he isn't dead.

But so far, I subscribe to his Meereen theories. (only on part II)

GerB40 · 25-10-2013 10:29am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wow after reading that I too think Jon may actually be dead. He aint coming back as the same person that's for sure.

He could get the lady stoneheart treatment. An anger filled zombie bastárd would be a fresh idea. Actually now that I think of it, imagine a half dead warg?? Jaysus the possibilities are endless!

Sleepy · 25-10-2013 10:38am

Nah, Jon's warged into Ghost and will be revived some way that involves that. His analysis of Jon's character and decision making is spot on though: another boy raised by Ned who's sense of justice and honour is his downfall. Jon's "ides of March" ending to ADWD is just Martin's means of freeing him up to fulfill his birthright as one of the three heads of the dragon imo.

Add the changed, darker Danaerys post-Meereen and a post-revival Jon who's pissed off at what he'd see as petty politics / bigotry preventing him doing what he sees as "just" and right and you have two characters ready to jump on dragon-back and "set Westeros to rights" in a hail of fire and blood. The question remains, who's the third head: will Aegon turn out to be a real Targaryen? Or will some twist of fate let it be (George's own favourite character) Tyrion?

Mr Freeze · 25-10-2013 10:46am

Sleepy wrote: »

Tyrion?

I hope its not Tyrion...

I hope all the Lannisters, stay Lannisters (and die Lannisters), not turn out to be Targaryens.

I suspect there will only be 2 Dragon Riders anyways, with one Dragon being killed in the story somewhere, or Bran controlling the third.

GerB40 · 25-10-2013 10:50am

Sleepy wrote: »

Nah, Jon's warged into Ghost and will be revived some way that involves that. His analysis of Jon's character and decision making is spot on though: another boy raised by Ned who's sense of justice and honour is his downfall. Jon's "ides of March" ending to ADWD is just Martin's means of freeing him up to fulfill his birthright as one of the three heads of the dragon imo.

Add the changed, darker Danaerys post-Meereen and a post-revival Jon who's pissed off at what he'd see as petty politics / bigotry preventing him doing what he sees as "just" and right and you have two characters ready to jump on dragon-back and "set Westeros to rights" in a hail of fire and blood. The question remains, who's the third head: will Aegon turn out to be a real Targaryen? Or will some twist of fate let it be (George's own favourite character) Tyrion?

GRRM said the ending will be bittersweet. I don't think the Imp is gonna make it. Hope he does though, id love to see him slice Cercei up (presuming she survives her upcoming trial). Mon ta fúck George, finish the feckin books.....

Sleepy · 25-10-2013 10:51am

Jaime will kill Cersei, he's the younger twin and therefore the Valonquar...

I'd prefer not to see Tyrion on dragon-back but it wouldn't surprise me. I would like to see him take Casterley Rock though and reckon he'll be a Targaryen ally by the end-game.

intellectual dosser · 25-10-2013 10:51am

So is everyone decided on the identity of Jon's parents? R & L ?

Sleepy · 25-10-2013 10:54am

I think it's generally accepted. TBH, if it turns out not to be, I suspect it'll be because it was figured out and George RR Martin changes it as a result...

GerB40 · 25-10-2013 10:56am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

So is everyone decided on the identity of Jon's parents? R & L ?

Shur didn't George all but confirm that "The most popular theory on Jons parentage is true?". He said something like that anyway.

25-10-2013 10:57am

Sleepy wrote: »

I think it's generally accepted. TBH, if it turns out not to be, I suspect it'll be because it was figured out and George RR Martin changes it as a result...

Do you think we'll find out about it in this book via a Weirdwood with Bran? I wonder when others will find out.

I think the 3rd head of the dragon will be Tyrion actually. I didn't see Jon being the 2nd I thought it would be Bran..... we shall see

Sleepy · 25-10-2013 12:01pm

Dany is Fire, Jon is Ice, their working together to defeat the others is the Song... or something like that.

I'm not sure how we'll find out about Jon's parentage, Howland Reed always seemed to be the key, Bran in the Weirwood seems too easy a tool to use for exposition, I'm still not sure I like where his arc is going.... I half expect Bran to end up on the side of the Others. Not quite sure how, but I'm starting to think of him as the Anakin Skywalker of the story who'll be tempted over onto the "dark side" by Bloodraven...

Sleepy · 29-10-2013 6:25pm

Just spotted on http://grrm.livejournal.com/ that the preview chapter included in the Mass Market Paperback of ADWD is Barristan I.

Mr Freeze · 30-10-2013 9:46am

Sleepy wrote: »

Just spotted on http://grrm.livejournal.com/ that the preview chapter included in the Mass Market Paperback of ADWD is Barristan I.

Dang, was hoping for a new sample chapter.

Sleepy · 30-10-2013 11:24am

TBH, I think he's almost revealed too much of TWOW at this stage. Just wish he'd take a leaf out of Sanderson's book, forget about editing the Wild Cards stuff etc. and focus on finishing the series.

Mr Freeze · 30-10-2013 11:33am

Sleepy wrote: »

..... forget about editing the Wild Cards stuff etc. and focus on finishing the series.

I think HBO seem to be taking up a tonne of his time with TV show related stuff.

Sleepy · 30-10-2013 12:02pm

He's doing promotion work with them and "consulting" on the show but I really don't think it could be that time intensive... the producer credit would seem to be more a contractual thing than a sign of active participation...

It's his endless involvement with side projects such as the figurines, replica swords, artwork for calenders etc., editing of the Wild Cards series and various anthologies, attending endless cons that seem to take up an awful lot of his time from what I can see.

5starpool · 30-10-2013 6:54pm

If he's done by 2020 at this stage it'll feel like a triumph. Hoping for 3-4 years time though.

TimeToShine · 30-10-2013 7:49pm

5starpool wrote: »

If he's done by 2020 at this stage it'll feel like a triumph. Hoping for 3-4 years time though.

Surely that's too long? I am expecting a mid 2015 release, the TV series will be finished in 4 years, I expect him to at least give us this book before the TV show writers pretty much ruin the series for us, regardless of whether GRRM has any input with regards to how it ends.

Sleepy · 31-10-2013 12:11pm

Honestly, I'd wouldn't be surprised to see it land around Christmas of next year. He moved a lot of chapters that he'd written for Dance into it so he had a good head-start on the book and reckoned this one would be simpler than the previous 2. Looking back to the first 3 books, he finished each of them in 2 years or so before he wrote himself into a corner with AFFC and Dance that took him 11 years to work his way out of (the need to start-over on AFFC and the Meerenese knot being the cause of this).

Obviously he's busier now with other commitments than he was when doing the first 3 books. It's been 15 months since Dance was released at this stage so if we assume he's got the head start, a simpler book to write in terms of structure at least and allow a 50% time-drag for his other commitments to give a writing time of 3 years I think it's fair to expect it to be released by July 2015 at the latest.

I wouldn't bet anything of consequence on it though: GRRM has failed to predict his deadlines enough times for us to know the futility of trying to do it!

5starpool · 31-10-2013 12:23pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

Surely that's too long? I am expecting a mid 2015 release, the TV series will be finished in 4 years, I expect him to at least give us this book before the TV show writers pretty much ruin the series for us, regardless of whether GRRM has any input with regards to how it ends.

I mean for the final 2 books, not just the next one. I'm hoping the next one will be 2015 at the latest. Surely a book every 3 years should be doable, even for Martin? I know the last couple of gaps have been much bigger, but hopefully the threat of the tv show overtaking book events might hurry him up. I'm guessing it is planned for a somewhat joint release of last book and last season (however many that might be).

Mr Freeze · 31-10-2013 12:25pm

To speed up the process, he could do with killing off a load of POVs. There are far too many now.

intellectual dosser · 31-10-2013 12:33pm

I think the fact that he has released/publicly spoken about certain chapters shows that he has most of WOW written. When a writer discloses information about a story they give up their ability to go back and change it. I don't think Martin would have divulged the information unless he knew where everything was going.

It seems all he should have left to do is to complete and revise. 2015 is giving him an awful amount of time IMO.

Mr Freeze · 31-10-2013 12:39pm

Just a question regarding its release, or books in general. Do they come out in Hardcover and Kindle at the same time?

Or is the Kindle later?

5starpool · 01-11-2013 1:19pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Just a question regarding its release, or books in general. Do they come out in Hardcover and Kindle at the same time?

Or is the Kindle later?

The last book in this series was released on Kindle at the same time as hardback.

PhlegmyMoses · 02-11-2013 2:51pm

Anyone else think he's going to really struggle to tie up some of this stuff in just 2 books? Bran and Arya took a long time to get where they are, it would take a massive leap in their arcs to get them into the picture for the end-game.

That's not to mention the myriad other characters - that may be more or less important than Bran and Arya - that are at various stages of their arcs but will need to come a far way to be big players in the story. Sam in the Citadel, Jamie and Cersei and her prophecy, Aegon and a new war down south with Griff, whatever the **** is going on with Stannis and the Bastard.

Then there's the Others. The battle with them will have to take a book at least to do them the justice of their billing as the biggest threat the realm has ever faced.

Unless the two books are around 2000 pages each, I think we might see one more in the end.

Gbear · 02-11-2013 3:16pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anyone else think he's going to really struggle to tie up some of this stuff in just 2 books? Bran and Arya took a long time to get where they are, it would take a massive leap in their arcs to get them into the picture for the end-game.

That's not to mention the myriad other characters - that may be more or less important than Bran and Arya - that are at various stages of their arcs but will need to come a far way to be big players in the story. Sam in the Citadel, Jamie and Cersei and her prophecy, Aegon and a new war down south with Griff, whatever the **** is going on with Stannis and the Bastard.

Then there's the Others. The battle with them will have to take a book at least to do them the justice of their billing as the biggest threat the realm has ever faced.

Unless the two books are around 2000 pages each, I think we might see one more in the end.

In his 11 chapters in Dance Tyrion was able to get from Westeros to Mereen via a pretty circuitous route. Ayra should be able to go the few hundred miles to Westeros in 1 or 2.
I'm not sure Bran is going anywhere.

There's no way it'd take an entire book to show any battle in the series. They showed the battle at the wall from 1 point of view (Jon's) in, I think, 3 or 4 chapters (including the Magnar of Thenn's sneak attack).
If such a battle takes place, in all likelihood, there will be several points of view focusing on it. Even if it's enormous I can't see how there'd be much more than 10-15 chapters. It'd just get boring.

I think the lethargic style of writing in the last 2 books has made people a bit more jaded. I'd be surprised if it stays that way. There's already been so much lore and exposition.

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the next book we've lost Barristan, Victarion, Areo Hotah and one of Theon or Asha. We'd already lost Quentyn and Jaime and Brienne are likely to be merged given they're in both the same place (or else they'll have half the number of chapters each to give both points of view).

Sleepy · 02-11-2013 10:23pm

Even his wife reckons it'll be 3 books. I saw a video somewhere on-line before of him being asked about being able to finish in 2 books and he was stating that he stands by it whilst she held up 3 fingers behind his back!

The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

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The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books