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Heineken Cup: Do we have an unfair advantage?
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23-05-2012 7:30am#1Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?
It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:
1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation
While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?
My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.
If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.
This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.
I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:
Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy
That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.
What are people’s thoughts?3
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England have too many teams as it is IMHO, teams in 6th/7th, strolling into the competition and realistically how many of those teams are actually fighting relegation, fair enough Wasps this year but start of the season you would have said Exeter and Newcastle. It's always Exeter plus A.N.Other no others come into the mix.0
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The others are free to change their qualification criteria or domestic structures as they see fit.
They should at least reduce the number of teams/games in their leagues.0 -
You'd be switching Ulster and Cardiff for inferior teams, teams which could not probably compete in the Heineken, as Ulster and Cardiff would not qualify for next seasons Heineken Cup.
Also, you need the Scottish and Italian teams to qualify if you want to grow the sport and develop it in these countries, particularly Italy as we are still in the early years of professionalism and if we don't develop the sport in Italy, which the Heineken Cup will play a big part in they'll remain as the whipping boys of the Pro12, 6 Nations as well as the Heineken Cup.
A better suggestion would be doing away with relegation in the Aviva Premiership all together for the moment. And maybe expanding the Heineken Cup if England or France were to actually pull out of it though that's unlikely.0 -
I think we do have an unfair advantage. That's pretty clear. I think Leinster would have won it either way this year but Edinburgh showed exactly how Rabo teams can completely abuse their domestic league in favour of Europe.
I think a system of 7 top teams from each competition would be fair, plus the two winners and highest ranked unqualified team.
I'd welcome that with open arms. It would stop the whining from England/France and it would improve the Rabo as well as the Heineken Cup0 -
ffs. This resting players nonsense has got to stop.
To compete in a league that's longer than 10 games long, you need to have replacements at every position. You need to rotate a squad. You need to develop players. You have to mix it up. Leinster clearly have a 60/20 game pattern in most games. This involves bringing on players that do not weaken the side, and would have been in contention to start, without breaking up a gameplan.
Leinster have been sensational at those things since before even Schmidt came along.
The Ulster of now remind me of the Leinster of Cheika's time. There's a team there that can win games, no doubt about it. But there's depth missing. There is though, plenty of talent available to them that is going to start to be integrated into the team. Ulster are kicking into 3rd gear quite shortly with their development. Cheika put massive steps into the academy. A lot of it didn't exactly work out. We've been smashed sending academy players over to Wales and Scotland a few times. But we started giving them a chance, and they started repaying the faith.
Leinster's main contributors to the side over the past 10 years are guys that have come up through the ranks, through the development process, were exposed gradually to first team football, were given opportunities to take responsibility, and when it didn't quite work, were given some shielding and some time to get back to where they were hoped to be.
Leinster's acheivements have benefitted massively from developing a squad that has at least 2 players in each position, and in many cases 4 and 5. They haven't bought these players in. They are guys that have been developed. They've made some shrewd acquisitions in the NIQ department to bolster areas of specific weakness, but shock horror, this is what the NIQs are supposed to be for!
There's nothing stopping any other team in Europe building an academy and trusting the output.
The only unfair advantage that Irish teams have over others is that they have recognised that 15 men may win a game, but they won't win a season.0 -
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razorblunt wrote: »England have too many teams as it is IMHO, teams in 6th/7th, strolling into the competition and realistically how many of those teams are actually fighting relegation, fair enough Wasps this year but start of the season you would have said Exeter and Newcastle. It's always Exeter plus A.N.Other no others come into the mix.
As opposed to Connaght, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.0 -
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I'd put forward the arguement that even though a considerable amount of Leinster's XV were away on international duty through out Pro 12 with the RWC and 6N, games were still being won with the remainder of the squad. Good management of the team got them where they are this season along with the quality of the players.0 -
As opposed to Connacht, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.
European Rugby Competition.
Not "champions of europe" - very succinct distinction needs to be made.
Allots places based on country first, then the rest divided out.
If there were simply an Irish league, there'd be four teams competing in it.
If there were simply a Scottish league, there'd be two.
If there were simply an Italian league there'd be 1.8 teams!
Because the Rabo is an amalgamation of these three plus the Welsh, it has to have a different qualification process than the French and English leagues.
I would agree with you somewhat about the difference in the way the rabo teams should be allocated positions. I think the 1/1/1/1 is too little though, and I think the 8/9 split is ridiculous tbh. We need to retain it as as "pan-European" as possible competition, not a "champions of champions" competition.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »ffs. This resting players nonsense has got to stop.
To compete in a league that's longer than 10 games long, you need to have replacements at every position. You need to rotate a squad. You need to develop players. You have to mix it up. Leinster clearly have a 60/20 game pattern in most games. This involves bringing on players that do not weaken the side, and would have been in contention to start, without breaking up a gameplan.
Leinster have been sensational at those things since before even Schmidt came along.
The Ulster of now remind me of the Leinster of Cheika's time. There's a team there that can win games, no doubt about it. But there's depth missing. There is though, plenty of talent available to them that is going to start to be integrated into the team. Ulster are kicking into 3rd gear quite shortly with their development. Cheika put massive steps into the academy. A lot of it didn't exactly work out. We've been smashed sending academy players over to Wales and Scotland a few times. But we started giving them a chance, and they started repaying the faith.
Leinster's main contributors to the side over the past 10 years are guys that have come up through the ranks, through the development process, were exposed gradually to first team football, were given opportunities to take responsibility, and when it didn't quite work, were given some shielding and some time to get back to where they were hoped to be.
Leinster's acheivements have benefitted massively from developing a squad that has at least 2 players in each position, and in many cases 4 and 5. They haven't bought these players in. They are guys that have been developed. They've made some shrewd acquisitions in the NIQ department to bolster areas of specific weakness, but shock horror, this is what the NIQs are supposed to be for!
There's nothing stopping any other team in Europe building an academy and trusting the output.
The only unfair advantage that Irish teams have over others is that they have recognised that 15 men may win a game, but they won't win a season.
Pure denial.
Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.
But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.
Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.0 -
Dravokivich wrote: »I'd put forward the arguement that even though a considerable amount of Leinster's XV were away on international duty through out Pro 12 with the RWC and 6N, games were still being won with the remainder of the squad. Good management of the team got them where they are this season along with the quality of the players.
Against other teams who had players away on international duty. Not a valid argument.0 -
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Pure denial.
Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.
But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.
Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.
leagues are not cups.0 -
I think a lot of people here are forgetting the main purpose of the ERC competitions. They are in place in order to promote and grow the sport domestically and in turn, internationally.
Right now 'Europe' consists of just three professional competitions: Celtic, English and French. Rugby union is not large enough to even remotely follow soccer in its competition structures as it pales in comparison.
Hence the feeding structure we see now of the ERC competitions. Remember that the ERC is made up of the higher-tier member unions. It is not as if no-one gets a say.
Most of those who find the competition "unfair" within the sport tend to be involved with privately-owned franchises. I feel anyway, that they see no further than their own front-gate.
*(the Russian competition is not professional in the same class. It is mostly played by semi-pros . . . at best).0 -
Pure denial.
Nobody is saying that Leinster haven't got a magnificent team and the job done at the academy has been excellent.
But to suggest that Irish teams don't have any advantage whatsoever is ludicrous IMO. Answer me this: Imagine if the Heineken Cup, Pro12, GP, T14 were all scrapped next year, and a European League was formed. Suppose the top division consisted of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester etc. Each team plays each other home and away. No playoffs, no other commitments. Just team with most points is European Champion. Do Leinster still win? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't be confident of it.
Not saying a European League is the way forward, just a way of illustrating things. Fairer qualification across the 3 leagues is the way to go, which will, as another poster said, stop the (understandable) French and English whining.
You obviously feel strongly about this and I don't think any argument is going to change your mind, but I'll have a go anyway:
Let's say that your qualification model is adopted. How will that solve the problem of French teams like Castres and Racing entering the HC but not actually caring about it? In fact, will it not make the situation worse? Under your model, we'd have Bordeaux-Begles in next year's HC, how much effort do you think they'd put in?
You say that the problem that French and English clubs face is the threat of relegation; how will putting more French and English clubs (and fewer Rabo teams) into the HC solve that?
Two questions there, I'd be interested in your answers.
Also, you seem a bit aggrieved that Clermont did not win the trophy; have you seen the size of their squad? They have more than enough players to rotate sufficiently but they were beaten by a better Leinster team on the day. And if it was a league format? Clermont have now lost to Leinster in three of the last four clashes, how would that look in a league table?
Leinster; P4 W3 L1 BP1 = 13 pts
Clermont; P4 W1 L3 BP2 = 6 pts0 -
whether we like it or not Irish domination of the HC will dilute French and English interest. How we go about keeping them interested? For one make qualification from the rabo competitive, maybe even cede 1 HC spot to the French/English on rotation.
as the OP says if it continues like it currently is then the french and english will lose interest. Although i guess tv and gate receipts from HC adds greatly to the purses of their teams.
In england next season all teams are allowed 1 marquee signing above their salary cap, in effect this sould increase their salary cap by 300-400k so squads should be somewhat stronger.0 -
Regarding England.
The rule changes implemented by the RFU may mean no relegation.
Depending on which team wins the championship.
Let the English clubs bleat their little hearts out.
Money talks.0 -
totallegend wrote: »Also, you seem a bit aggrieved that Clermont did not win the trophy; have you seen the size of their squad? They have more than enough players to rotate sufficiently but they were beaten by a better Leinster team on the day.
Clermont were half an inch worth of bicep from a final, I certainly wouldn't have been able to begrudge them the victory. It would be 2-2 in league format then.
The margins here are tight, that is what makes cup rugby fantastic viewing, even for neutrals.
Clermont could easily have been the ones set up for a home and euro double this season.0 -
First of all, the relegation argument is a false one. None of the English or French teams in the HEC have any realistic chance of being relegated. The Newcastle Falcons who were relegated this year won only 6 of their premiership games and were not even in the Heineken Cup. Wasps, the other relegation canididate also only won 6 games and also were not in the HEC, but were in the Amlin.
In the T14, Brive and Lyon (7 and 5 wins respectively) will be relegated; both were in the Amlin only. The next two above them (Bayonne and Perpignan) also were not in the HEC and likewise Worcester in the Premiership.
Looking at it from the qualification point of view, 6th place in the T14 was Racing Metro with 13 wins (half of their matches) in the premiership it was just 10; less than half. Not exactly daunting requirements and if (as is often stated) the league has higher weighting in the Premiership and T14 then winning half your games would be a minimum requirement for a resaonable season and certainly would avoid the relegation trap.
Therefore the second point that it's difficult to focus on the league and the HEC is moot as a good league position will almost always qualify you for the HEC and avoid relegation.
Moving on to player rotation. Taking Leinster as an example (and since Leinster won the HEC, it's the best one) most of the first team players had extended absences this season due to the RWC and the 6N. With the exceptions of Nacewa and Strauss (and possibly VdM) all of them were missing for league games. This meant that a 'seconds' team was used for many of these games and even in the HEC pool matches many of these 'seconds' got starts. Ian Madigan, Jamie Hagan and Dave Kearney had 1 start each for example. Leinster clearly didn't focus solely on the HEC, they went all out for league position and finished 10 points ahead at the top and are now in the final.
There may be an argument that the league doesn't present as much of a challenge as say the Premiership or the T14, but if you're looking at the qualification zone in both those leagues (top 6 roughly) then that same zone in the Rabo is equally competitive:
T14|Wins|AP|Wins|Rabo|Wins
Toulouse|19|Quins|17|Leinster|18
Clermont|19|Leicester|15|Ospreys|16
Toulon|14|Saracens|16|Munster|14
Castres|14|Saints|14|Glasgow|13
Montpellier|14|Exeter|12|Scarlets|12
Racing|13|Sale|10|Ulster|12
Teams in bold qualified for the knock-out stages of the HEC, in italics for the knock-out stages of the Amlin.
The real meat of the argument though comes down to squad rotation and development. When Leinster played Clermont in the semi-final, their squad depth was heavily exposed. Injuries to key players meant that they had a fairly bare cupboard to draw from for their bench and even their starting XV. Back in the heydey of Toulouse, they would regularly field a team of world class players with a bench full of more world class players.
Joe Schmidt has a squad of 40 players and has played all of them this season. Some have had only a couple of starts but many of those had injuries which curtailed their season. There's only one way to compete on two fronts and Joe has had the balls to do it. Bringing John Cooney (who'd had a mare earlier in the season) on in the final, was testament to that.
After the final, Leinster will have played 33 games this season. Has any French or English team had that wall to climb?0 -
If Leinster were in the same domestic league as Clermont would they win? Maybe not. If Leinster were in the same domestic league and Schmidt wasn't limited in the number of NIQs allowed? They probably would. Each team has advantages and disadvantages.
The tournament is designed to build the game as a whole, not just reward teams for performance. Maybe the eighth-placed English team might do better than Aironi or Connacht, but two things need to be remembered: one, Edinburgh's performance shows that it's by no means a certainty, and two, we need a far more convincing case than "maybe they'll do better" to effectively give up on the professional game in Italy, and do it severe damage in Scotland and Wales.
A few years ago the argument was that the Celtic teams weren't competitive enough and thus the English and French teams should get more slots. Now the argument is that the Celtic teams are too competitive and thus the English and French teams should get more slots. It's not a serious argument; it's simple greed and selfishness.0 -
Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?
TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.0 -
Also, something is going to have to change. The accord of 2007 has expired and theres nothing to stop the French pulling out now.0
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Obviously it’s great to see Irish teams win Heineken Cups. Munster beating Biarritz to finally break the Anglo-French stranglehold was one of the great moments in Irish sport (particularly because it was brought to us live on RTE), as indeed was Leinster’s maiden win in 2009, when they left behind some of the unfair criticism they had been getting up to that point. Each of the 5 wins in the last 7 years have been great moments, but the increasing dominance of Irish teams has got me thinking, do we really have an unfair advantage in the Heineken Cup? Are Leinster really the best team in Europe, or just the team who rested their players for the Heineken Cup the best?
It doesn’t seem right that the French and English teams have to worry about:
1) Qualification for next season’s Heineken Cup
2) Avoiding relegation
While 11 of the 12 Pro 12 teams can just qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of how good/bad/indifferent they perform domestically. Is it right that our teams can rest players domestically and have ourselves in tip-top shape for big Heineken Cup matches, while the French and English have to take both competitions equally seriously?
My personal opinion would be, that if a European Super League existed right now, Clermont would prove to be the best team in Europe, and not Leinster. Under the Heineken Cup format, Clermont clearly didn’t go into that game the fresher of the two, and that to me indicates a serious flaw in the competition, which in the interests of fairness, needs to be rectified.
If Leinster and Munster didn’t have the luxury to rest players domestically, would they have won as many Heineken Cups during the last 7 years? A couple no doubt, but 5? I’d have my doubts.
This worries me and I think our dominance could come back to haunt us if something isn’t done soon. The French and English could easily get fed up of the competition and boycott. It nearly happened 5 years ago. Who’s to say they wont do it again? In the end of the day, they don’t need the Heineken Cup like we do. They can survive fine off their domestic league, but the Irish teams would be screwed without the French and English involvement in the competition. We rely on them a lot and without the competition they provide us, the provinces would be nothing.
I’d like to see a complete change in qualification:
Top 8 from England
Top 9 from France
Top 1 from Ireland
Top 1 from Wales
Top 1 from Scotland
Top 1 from Italy
Top 3 from the rest of Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy
That to me would be a fairer competition for all, and if they Irish were to then prevail, there could be no doubt about our superiority. Right now, I don’t think there is a true level playing field.
What are people’s thoughts?
You find this stuff slopping about in the bottom of your boat. Why on Earth would you want to see even more poor English sides in the Heineken Cup when you seem to be whining that they already have too much on their plate?As opposed to Connaght, Edinburgh etc strolling into the competition? Coming 6th and 7th in England is far harder to achieve than not coming last in Pro12.
Connacht didn't stroll in to the competition. They got in because Ireland earned an extra place as an Irish team won the Cup. Just in the same way that an extra English and an extra French team get in on the same basis. Also Connacht have a budget of about one third of the average Aviva team and a quarter or much less than a French side.
Edinburgh are in the competition as it is run by the Unions, not the leagues. They also run on a budget that some teams spend on their academies.
Before you spout more claptrap perhaps you should actually look at the number of games each player actually plays before pontificating about players being 'rested' or look at the size of the squads in each team.
Here is your starter for 10.
Leicester Tigers. Squad. 47 Senior Players including 31 international players. Played 22 plus 6 ERC games.
Here are some front line players chosen at random
Dan Cole Played 20.
Manu Tuilagi Played 12
Ben Youngs Played 14
Ulster Rugby. 38 players including 15 internationals. Played 22 plus 9 ERC games.
Here are some front line players chosen at random
Tom Court Played 21
Dan Tuohy Played 28
Paul Marshall Played 27
Harlequins. 37 Senior Players. (19? Internationals) Played 22 plus 6 ERC
Connacht. 37 Senior Players including 9 internationals. Played 22 plus 6 ERC games.
Wow! look at all the extra games the Aviva sides have to play. Ooops! Maybe not.0 -
I don't understand how 1) and 2) are different things? If you do well enough in the Aviva or Top14 to qualify for the HEC then you won't get relegated.
The French teams have much greater pulling power than the Irish (or Scottish, Welsh and English) sides so they should be able to compete on both fronts with the kind of squads they're able to afford.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?
TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.
That leagues aren't cups.
How many times have we heard of "giant killers" in the FA cup in premiership football. How many times have we seen that teams up their game on cup day.
Clearly Edinburgh milked this beyond belief this season, but unless their opinion of the league as some may see it (to use it only as a development ground for a run at the HEC) looks as though it may become the "norm" for some of the weaker countries (and for example, we need Scottish representation) then I wouldn't be troubled by it.
It's akin to the hosts at the WC getting through the knock outs, and people moaning "oh they only qualified by default, we had to get through X stages, our players were tired etc".0 -
I'll answer that, and say that even had there been relegation along the lines of the Premiership (one spot) then Embra wouldn't have been relegated anyway.irishbucsfan wrote: »Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?
TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.
We've seen all kinds of dysfunctional behaviour from teams in the HEC. From the behaviour of Embra this season and the likes of Bourgoin in seasons past.
You don't make rules according to the exceptions, time will sort them out (as it has with Bourgoin).0 -
And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy.
Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.
Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.0 -
Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.
I'll answer that, and say that even had there been relegation along the lines of the Premiership (one spot) then Embra wouldn't have been relegated anyway.irishbucsfan wrote: »Emmet, what do you have to say about Edinburgh this season?
TL, I don't think these changes would have the aim of preventing some teams from disregarding the H Cup. However these changes would certainly improve the reputation of the tournament in France and that would possibly see better participation. These changes are more aimed at removing the advantage that Rabo teams currently get.
We've seen all kinds of dysfunctional behaviour from teams in the HEC. From the behaviour of Embra this season and the likes of Bourgoin in seasons past.
You don't make rules according to the exceptions, time will sort them out (as it has with Bourgoin).
Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.
These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form0 -
FYPtotallegend wrote: »And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy. getting all the money.
Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.
Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.
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Leinster and Munster weren't the only teams though. You've missed the point. Noone is begrudging leinster over here.totallegend wrote: »And let's be honest, really honest. It's not the qualification system that bother the French/English, it's the fact that they haven't been winning the trophy.
Does anyone really think that if the system is changed and the Irish teams continue to win, the French will just go, "c'est la vie" and accept it? Will they f**k.
Right, so once that is established, does anyone think that Leinster would struggle to fill one of the Rabo qualification slots, whatever system is put in place? No, they'd breeze in, as would Munster. So in the context of the last five years, what would have changed? Nothing.
Cardiff, Edinburgh and Ulster would have had to approach the competition completely differently0 -
Because firstly (and all those making these kinds of arguments seem to conveniently forget this) the HEC accord is agreed by the home unions. That's the Irish, Scottish, English, French, Welsh and Italian unions. They each want adequate representation in the competition because they want to grow and develop the sport in their respective countries. The league is just a method of doling out their respective allocations, not a european wide qualification system.irishbucsfan wrote: »Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.
Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.
These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form
Before the Italian clubs joined the Rabo, they just gave out their slots without any real qualification. Effectively the system is the same in the Rabo and everyone looking in is saying it's too easy :rolleyes:0 -
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Yes. What you've done here is state why it would be hard to make the change, not whether or not the change should be made.
Because firstly (and all those making these kinds of arguments seem to conveniently forget this) the HEC accord is agreed by the home unions. That's the Irish, Scottish, English, French, Welsh and Italian unions. They each want adequate representation in the competition because they want to grow and develop the sport in their respective countries. The league is just a method of doling out their respective allocations, not a european wide qualification system.irishbucsfan wrote: »Noones talking about relegation? Were talking about a merit based qualification process for the Heineken Cup.
Under the proposed system Edinburgh (and Cardiff) wouldnt have qualified for next season. Ulster only by the skin of their teeth.
These changes would improve both the H Cup and the Rabo. I honestly don't see why we shouldn't bring them in in some form
Before the Italian clubs joined the Rabo, they just gave out their slots without any real qualification. Effectively the system is the same in the Rabo and everyone looking in is saying it's too easy :rolleyes:
There is plenty if middle ground to find. We could guarantee each nation in the Rabo at least one place awarded to their highest finishing team. That maintains interest from all nations.
As you said the member nations of the ERC agreed the accord in 2007. That was on the back of the threat of one of them pulling out. So to say that one nation can't make a demand is incorrect, just as assuming that the two most powerful nations, in unison, could not unite and force a much-needed change through. There is nothing to prevent the Anglo-French cup being formed in 2014, let's not forget. Then the Rabo teams are screwed.0
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