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Phillips selling TVs not conforming to Saorview Standard in 2011

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  • 17-01-2011 4:37pm
    #1
    56lcd
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭


    Earlier this month I purchased a very expensive Philips 56PFL99554H cinema screen TV in Expert Electrical.
    I enquired if the TV was fully Saorview compatible before I purchased it and the salesman assured me that it was, he could not display it working as he said the TV was hooked up to a SKY dish system.
    The TV is huge so I had to pay a neighbour €30 to collect and deliver it to me.
    When I set it up at home I was horrified to see the old style analogue text instead of the digital Saorview text.
    By making enquiries on boards.ie I was able to get digital Saorview text by selecting the UK as my country location, when I set it to the UK I lost all the digital radio channels.
    I spent ages on the phone with Philips technical staff on several occasions and the best they could do was tell me to take my TV back to where I bought it as they will not be fixing the problem .... This is a €1300 TV purchased in January 2011 and it is advertised for sale in many leading Irish Electrical outlets.
    You would think that it would be a simple enough firmware fix but Philips seem intent on frustrating their customers instead.
    Is it legal for Philips to be selling TVs that do not conform to Saorview standard in 2011.
    What is the best course of action to take?
    Should I call up Harvey Norman, Expert Electrical etc to highlight to them that they are selling Philips TVs that don't conform to Saorview standards?


«134

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    #2
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You are probably entitled to refund. http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/05/aso-in-less-than-two-years/

    I'd recommend folk avoid Panasonic and Philips and be cautious about Toshiba.

    Avoid Store Own Brands, unknown brands and Monitor Makers unless they have Saorview Certification. There are plenty of Working TVs.

    It's quite legal to sell incompatible gear, but for up to 6 years you can claim damages and over two years refund/repair/replacement if a TV is not fit for purpose.


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    #3
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    You are not alone It is also being discussed in the certified thread - 1,2.

    Problem arises because the middleware usage MHEG5 has not been profiled for use with Ireland Country Set up on both Panasonics and Philips. MHP, another middleware used in France etc has been profiled and its useless here as we dont use that middleware. MHEG5 has been a basic and minimum requirement since the spec was published in 2008.

    MHEG5 has been profiled correctly on LG, Sony and Samsung Brands.

    I'll leave you to guess why this is the case. Perhaps the CEDA group can tell you. Philips sit on that group.


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    #4
    Richersounds.ie: John
    Company Representative Posts: 9,457 ✭✭✭Richersounds.ie: John


    Hi Guys,

    declared interest here - I sell Philips TV's.

    This is an known issue on this particular model.

    If you set the location as UK - there is no issue with MPEG4 and MHEG5 text is also available - however the OP is correct in saying that the Irish radio stations are not available.

    We have already told the Customer that we have informed Philips of this issue and I have personally spoken to the General Manager and the Service Manager of Philips and they are aware of the issue and have told me that they have referred the issue to their technical department and I hope that there will be a firmware update to address this issue.

    If I get an update I'll happily keep you all informed.

    ATVB,

    John Mc & Crew

    John McDonald / Managing Director / Richer Sounds Ireland / www.richersounds.ie / johnmc@richersounds.ie



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    #5
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    STB wrote: »
    You are not alone It is also being discussed in the certified thread - 1,2.

    Problem arises because the middleware usage MHEG5 has not been profiled for use with Ireland Country Set up on both Panasonics and Philips. MHP, another middleware used in France etc has been profiled and its useless here as we dont use that middleware. MHEG5 has been a basic and minimum requirement since the spec was published in 2008.

    MHEG5 has been profiled correctly on LG, Sony and Samsung Brands.

    I'll leave you to guess why this is the case. Perhaps the CEDA group can tell you. Philips sit on that group.

    Even more Insane is fact that the MHEG variation used by RTE NL (the Broadcast Profile) is NOT some strange Irish, NZ, Hong Kong, etc, but specifically the UK profile!

    Philips, Panasonic etc have had OVER two years to sort this. Even in respect of TVs made last August 2010.


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    #6
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Surely, all you need to do is get a Saorview set-top box, which would work with any colour TV set.


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    #7
    Widescreen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭Widescreen


    watty wrote: »
    You are probably entitled to refund. http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/05/aso-in-less-than-two-years/

    I'd recommend folk avoid Panasonic and Philips and be cautious about Toshiba.

    Avoid Store Own Brands, unknown brands and Monitor Makers unless they have Saorview Certification. There are plenty of Working TVs.

    It's quite legal to sell incompatible gear, but for up to 6 years you can claim damages and over two years refund/repair/replacement if a TV is not fit for purpose.

    Thats interesting that you mention Toshiba Watty. I got a 37" model last June and there is one issue with the digital text on it albeit only minor.
    When you go into the text, the time that shows within the rte digital text is always wrong and in fact is usually a few hours ahead. That is the only issue and the text itself is up to date and works like an absolute rocket. I noticed there is no Ireland listed in the country list so I am thinking that might be the reason? It is set up using the UK. The actual time on the TV itself that shows up for a second or two when you change channel is fine.


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    #8
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    endakenny wrote: »
    Surely, all you need to do is get a Saorview set-top box, which would work with any colour TV set.
    Kinda defeats the purpose of buying a new TV and specifically requesting Saorview functionality.

    Also, an extra STB means another remote control lying around.


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    #9
    maxg
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    watty wrote: »
    Even more Insane is fact that the MHEG variation used by RTE NL (the Broadcast Profile) is NOT some strange Irish, NZ, Hong Kong, etc, but specifically the UK profile!

    Philips, Panasonic etc have had OVER two years to sort this. Even in respect of TVs made last August 2010.

    It looks like there is a typing error in the first post and the model is a 56PFL9954H. That is a TV from 2009.
    Beside that what has mheg5 to do with the radio chanels?


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    #10
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    endakenny wrote: »
    Surely, all you need to do is get a Saorview set-top box, which would work with any colour TV set.

    Yes, during the 1980s we could have bought cheap Russian Secam TVs and used standalone Analogue Tuners (I had a Standalone PAL I tuner in 1983) too.

    Any TV not compatible sold since March/August 2008 approx should have had an Analogue only Disclaimer.

    Any TV sold since November 2010 that is not compatible, isn't really a TV. It's a Monitor.


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    #11
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maxg wrote: »
    It looks like there is a typing error in the first post and the model is a 56PFL9954H. That is a TV from 2009.
    Beside that what has mheg5 to do with the radio chanels?

    No-one knows why selecting UK "knocks out" the Radio (gives working MHEG5). If you select Ireland, then the TV & radio A/V work, but the MHEG5 is disabled.

    The "UK" Country setting has some strange bug, perhaps to do with LCN of 200s rather than 700s for Radio. The "Ireland" Country setting has a more ordinary "mistake" where MHEG5 is deliberately disabled. March 2008 Philips knew that Ireland would use UK MHEG Profile.

    The firmware is obviously faulty. 2009 is no excuse.


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    #12
    maxg
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    watty wrote: »

    The firmware is obviously faulty. 2009 is no excuse.

    Nobody knew in 2009 if irish dtt would officially start before 2012 or 2015.
    There is still no official launch date for the full service.


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    #13
    Johnmb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    maxg wrote: »
    Nobody knew in 2009 if irish dtt would officially start before 2012 or 2015.
    There is still no official launch date for the full service.
    Irrelevant really. Nobody is saying they should put something extra into the TV, all they are being asked to do is allow the Ireland setting to use the already present MHEG5 specs, something they've known would be eventually required for quite some time now. And in 2009 it was a fair bet that Irish DTT would start in 2012, as that was what was required by the EU, but even if it was to be delayed, what excuse is that for not giving access to the already installed specs?


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    #14
    dnme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭dnme


    Philips are poor to respond to customers and have poor tech support IMO. I have been posting at a Philips forum here with multiple bugs on a Philips LED TV and not one response from Philips to date.

    Their software is poor, very poor, a year in and still riddled with bugs. Already on revision 4 and nowhere near sorting things out. They are not providing oline EPG services to Ireland. etc etc etc

    Its all a bit much. I bought my TV and my BLU-Ray as Philips devices. I'd think twice next time.

    I have had the misfortune to use their live online chat. Spoke to a guy who knew nothing about what my problem was. He did not even know about the feature or where it was on the menu. He kept going and asking his supervisor and eventually (after about an hour of volly's) I just gave up.

    You have to support your customers!!!!


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    #15
    suse103
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16 ✭suse103


    I agree with keeping clear of philips tv's i have a 42pfl5604 and had to buy a set top box to get saorview , picture breakup , dropping ,definitly a mpeg4 software problem , 2 aerials , attenautors , boosters, filters and a tuner replacement later i gave up and bought a box for uninterupted tv


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    #16
    maxg
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    Johnmb wrote: »
    Irrelevant really. Nobody is saying they should put something extra into the TV, all they are being asked to do is allow the Ireland setting to use the already present MHEG5 specs, something they've known would be eventually required for quite some time now. And in 2009 it was a fair bet that Irish DTT would start in 2012, as that was what was required by the EU, but even if it was to be delayed, what excuse is that for not giving access to the already installed specs?

    Why should it be irrelevant? Do you know if the MHEG5 license fees were paid for TV's which were not sold to the UK?
    The 2012 EU date is only a guidance. Due to international agreements the last date for ASO is 2015.


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    #17
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maxg wrote: »
    Nobody knew in 2009 if irish dtt would officially start before 2012 or 2015.
    There is still no official launch date for the full service.

    Actually, it was supposed to start in Oct 2008, Jan 2009, Apr 2009, Jul 2009, Aug 2009, jan 2010 etc... approximately. Only the desire to Launch payTV at same time was delaying the rollout.

    Philips knew definitely in March 2008 they needed MHEG5 for Ireland. In fact it was clear by 2007 that we wouldn't use anything else.

    It's true that in 2001 RTE was discussing MHP and not MHEG5 (why we don't know)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=284088&highlight=MHEG#post284088

    04-11-2002, 10:03 Start of Dutch Rollout
    I suggested unlikely that DTT would be standard across Europe.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=628948&postcount=2

    DAB Rollout discussed. MPEG4 and DAB+ mentioned
    27-10-2005, 15:39
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3530605&postcount=72

    DTT testing (again) in Ireland. MPEG4 for SD and HD likely
    03-01-2006, 15:47 FIVE YEARS AGO
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=50633700

    MPEG4 + MHEG5 boxes wanted for RTE DTT Start of Real RTE NL Rollout The 2006 to 2008 Three Rock and Clermont Cairn was a BT Demo for DCNER / Government attempt to sell PayTV licence

    21-12-2007, 17:11 Over Three Years ago
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54775606&highlight=MHEG5#post54775606

    There was a DTT test in 2005 in Dublin. Maybe the end of the 1999 .. 2001 series.

    Originally in 1999 the idea was MPEG2, MHP and DVBT with DVB-RCT return channel. By end of 2005 this was abandoned.


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    #18
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    maxg wrote: »
    Why should it be irrelevant? Do you know if the MHEG5 license fees were paid for TV's which were not sold to the UK?
    The 2012 EU date is only a guidance. Due to international agreements the last date for ASO is 2015.

    MHEG 5 is a royalty-free licence.


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    #19
    SPAWKER
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭SPAWKER


    Not Philips I know but the brother has a Panasonic TXP50X20L and it does not do MHEG5 but he was on to the Panasonic customer care team today to enquire if they were going to release a firmware update to enable it.Whoever he was talking to said that they were looking into it and they also admitted that their uk models were having problems getting digital text on the HD channels over there.To my knowledge their uk models have MHEG5 enabled on them,so maybe they are going to get their finger out and sort it out once and for all.


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    #20
    Johnmb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    maxg wrote: »
    Why should it be irrelevant? Do you know if the MHEG5 license fees were paid for TV's which were not sold to the UK?
    The 2012 EU date is only a guidance. Due to international agreements the last date for ASO is 2015.
    As Sam said, MHEG5 is royalty free. The date is irrelevant because the MHEG5 is already on the TV, so what difference does it make as to when we switch on the service? The facility is there now on the TVs, why possible reason is there to not allow it to work now?


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    #21
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's not Freeview compatible and can't have Freeview logo without MHEG5!


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    #22
    Satdog
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭Satdog


    Richersounds.ie: John wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    declared interest here - I sell Philips TV's.

    This is an known issue on this particular model.

    If you set the location as UK - there is no issue with MPEG4 and MHEG5 text is also available - however the OP is correct in saying that the Irish radio stations are not available.

    We have already told the Customer that we have informed Philips of this issue and I have personally spoken to the General Manager and the Service Manager of Philips and they are aware of the issue and have told me that they have referred the issue to their technical department and I hope that there will be a firmware update to address this issue.

    If I get an update I'll happily keep you all informed.

    ATVB,

    John Mc & Crew

    John,

    What do you make of the response from Jonathan, Philips Customer Care Team in the thread below at #111. Said it was a hardware problem. I followed up with Philips but they didn't respond to my second EMail. My TV was bought from your good self.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056096032&page=8

    Regards


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    #23
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,481 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    maxg wrote: »
    The 2012 EU date is only a guidance. Due to international agreements the last date for ASO is 2015.

    Th EU is to mandate the clearance of analogue television from the 800MHz Digital Dividend spectrum by 31st Dec 2012, a derogation will only be granted to 2015 in exceptional circumstances. The legislation is expected to be passed by this summer.


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    #24
    Widescreen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,096 ✭✭✭Widescreen


    Watty

    you mentioned the point below earlier in thread

    "I'd recommend folk avoid Panasonic and Philips and be cautious about Toshiba."

    In relation to the point I make below


    Thats interesting that you mention Toshiba Watty. I got a 37" model last June and there is one issue with the digital text on it albeit only minor.
    When you go into the text, the time that shows within the rte digital text is always wrong and in fact is usually a few hours ahead. That is the only issue and the text itself is up to date and works like an absolute rocket. I noticed there is no Ireland listed in the country set up list so I am thinking that might be the reason? It is set up using the UK. The actual time on the TV itself that shows up for a second or two when you change channel is fine.

    Just wondering if you are aware of a way that the tv can be updated someway to fix this. its a fzv635. ?

    thanks


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    #25
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No.

    We use same time as UK.


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    #26
    maxg
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    MHEG 5 is a royalty-free licence.

    Do you say the middleware mheg5 engine is royalty free?


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    #27
    maxg
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    watty wrote: »

    Philips knew definitely in March 2008 they needed MHEG5 for Ireland. In fact it was clear by 2007 that we wouldn't use anything else.

    Who is saying a TV has to support any new broadcast method which will maybe come in the future or maybe not.
    Can you post a link?


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    #28
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    watty wrote: »
    It's quite legal to sell incompatible gear, but for up to 6 years you can claim damages and over two years refund/repair/replacement if a TV is not fit for purpose.
    I will correct you once more, there is nothing in law that says that something should be fit for purpose for a specified period of time. Once the item is fit for purpose when you purchase it then it is fit for purpose. Future changes in 3rd party systems or the lack of signal available is irrelevant to fit for purpose.

    Also this 2 year figure that watty mentions has been pulled from thin air and does not exist - when challenged before on this figure I was directed to a section of the sale of goods act that deals with Cars.

    I agree with your sentiment watty but your facts in relation to the law are incorrect. Please stop spreading false information or else please show where in law it says this or even a court judgement - something to back it up as I would love to see where you are getting this information.

    However the OP's situation is different to watty's generalised spiel that is being spewed everywhere in that he was relying on the seller's expertise and the seller gave incorrect information i.e. compatibility with a specific type of system. This is a clear cut breach of contract and the OP would have the right to completely rescind the contract.


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    #29
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    axer wrote: »
    I will correct you once more, there is nothing in law that says that something should be fit for purpose for a specified period of time. Once the item is fit for purpose when you purchase it then it is fit for purpose. Future changes in 3rd party systems or the lack of signal available is irrelevant to fit for purpose.


    Do you work for a Retailer? You were like a Retailer's Troll on the Consumer's Forum.

    RTE NL Irish Digital TV tests started Christmas 2007, Original rollout was due for 2001
    Spec Published in March 2008, confirmed August 2008
    Trial launch supposed to be Autumn 2009 but was delayed to 29th October 2010 due to attempt to co-launch pay TV
    Analogue switch off was always to be end of 2012.

    TVs sold labelled as Digital that are not compatible here, but sold retail in Ireland are not fit for purpose since 29th October 2010, and arguably since 2008 or 2009 and likely to be agreed so in Small Claims court if bought since 2008.

    It is established that a TV should last more than two years. CEDA (Trade, manufactureres etc) given notice in 2008 to get house in order!

    Retailers and Wholesale have deliberately not been publicising the DSO process and 2012 ASO. Because it suits to "dump" obsolete stock in Ireland. I doubt we can ever prove it's a deliberate conspiracy.

    The LEAST that can be done is help people that have been mislead or cheated by claims on Packaging and phrases such as "Digital TV" and "Full HDTV" or "HD Ready TV" to get a refund or replacement.

    Why are are you determined to discourage people when the evidence is that Retailers ARE refunding or Replacing without even being forced by Small Claims Court?


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    #30
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    maxg wrote: »
    Do you say the middleware mheg5 engine is royalty free?

    Depends on who you are talking to maxg. We do not know who developed Phillips internal MHEG5 engine software. Perhaps they own it ? One thing is certainly true, MHP is licensed and its use is controlled through a central licensing collective agent (US company - Via Licensing). If the payments are on a Country Profile basis then Philips could save themselves some money by adopting MHEG5 for Ireland. Not only would they be following the published spec for Ireland, they would also save themselves needless monies through wrong middleware profiling.

    By the way, the LG MHEG Engine is an in-house software receiver engine that adds MHEG-5 functionality to LGE digital television receivers. So some manufacturers do their own engine so costs are inhouse. So its not all third party products/licensing arrangements.

    If anyone wants to read up on this further or see who has their own MHEG5 middleware without licensing problems they should look at the following. Not that this has any bearing on the discussion as its highly likely that these costs are minimal and absorbed into the price anyhow by the multinational manufacturers.

    Again there would not be licensing problems with the right country profiling by manufacturers.

    Consistency among manuafcturers ? Yes please.

    http://www.impala.org/what-mheg

    http://www.impala.org/impala_members


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    #31
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maxg wrote: »
    Do you say the middleware mheg5 engine is royalty free?

    yes it is.
    http://www.impala.org/
    MHEG-5 is a licence-free, market-proven public standard hybrid interactive TV middleware.


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