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08-11-2010, 13:41   #46
ForiegnNational
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But you can bring children with other conditions public transport. Just because its not an option for some doesn't mean it's not an option for everyone.
Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).
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08-11-2010, 14:36   #47
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Originally Posted by ForiegnNational View Post
Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).
Nobody expects sick children to go to hospital on a train so stop banging on about it. There are however many healthy adults who could use public transport to get to the hospital. If the hospital does not have good access to public transport then you have to provide car parking for 1,500 staff. This would be an unnecessary expense when we should be getting cars off the road and encouraging people to use public transport to get to work.

Also having access to public transport from the hospital has benefits for families staying their because it means they are not just confined to the hospital and would be able to take their other children into town etc. No public transport would also mean every visitor has to drive and park at the hospital.

There is a limit to the amount of funds available for this project so if several thousand car parking spaces have to be provided then there is less money to spend on facilities within the hospital. The National Childrens Hospital, be it at the Mater or elsewhere, needs good public transport links. End of.
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08-11-2010, 23:34   #48
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Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).
The mater is about the same distance from the m50 as Crumlin. Something which was ignored the first time I posted this.
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09-11-2010, 01:34   #49
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Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?
Actually, going by the last Census figures, Co Dublin has around 28% of the population and the Greater Dublin Area has 39.2%.

After the last Census in 2006, the CSO reported that "All other regions lost population share over the 45-year period [up to 2006]." Downturn or no down turn this is suspected to remain the same -- I'd be surprised if the Census next year does not show the Greater Dublin Area peeking above.


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When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.
And many are also just going in for a day.

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You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.
No, not everybody can just head home -- that's a given no matter where its built. And nobody here is saying public transport suits very sick children -- it's not even suitable for some mildly sick children. Cars are not even suitable for all cases -- there's no one size fits all.

But parents and other visitors do have to visit, get to other accommodation, get to friends house, get from work to the hospital, get back home, get to train stations, motorways etc.

Not everybody will have whole families with them and, as I said, many are also just going in for a day or two.


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In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).
Again, does the 80% include taxies? I know we took the taxi any time using the train to get to Dublin going to hospital for my sister or my self.

It'll also be 3km from the nearest motorway, the Port Tunnel, and about 4.5km from the M1 overground. Also from the non-motorway main roads it'll be around 1km from the Finglas Road (the open section of the N2), 2km from the Navan Road (N3), also 2km from the quays (N4).

From Matter, some of the main trains stations in the country are also near by -- Connolly is 1.5km and Heuston is 3km.

Traffic isn't that much of an issue and, in an emergency, bus lanes can be used -- even by private cars, no garda will ticket somebody with a sick child in the back of a car in an emergency. Generally traffic will become a big issue on a greenfield site if staff and visitors only have the realistic option of driving.
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09-11-2010, 02:04   #50
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I have plenty experience of having family in the mater and kids to temple street. Both getting in there in emergency, and longer stays or even visits. We have regular visits to temple street for an on going condition.

I'm in Dublin and the location is a nightmare.

Traffic is a nightmare. Theres no parking. You have to feed meters, if you have to get food out of regular hours theres nothing near it. I know the area pretty well, but even for me its a nightmare due to all the no left/right turns at so many junctions. PITA. Even if you overlook the immediate area itself, you have to pass through a lot of other traffic bottlenecks to get to it. If I used public transport it would make the round trip about 3 times longer than it takes in the car. Makes no sense to me. Not to mention that public transport is probably the least healthiest way to travel, even for healthy people. On a separate issue putting big hospitals together seems like a great way of spreading infections to me. Considering the Mater was one of the worst in my experience.
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09-11-2010, 09:09   #51
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I have plenty experience of having family in the mater and kids to temple street. Both getting in there in emergency, and longer stays or even visits. We have regular visits to temple street for an on going condition.

I'm in Dublin and the location is a nightmare.

Traffic is a nightmare.
Traffic is a nightmare 24/7? Please I live in the surrounding area and you'll get from the M50 to the cemetery in 5 to 10 minutes with a futher 5 to 10 on to the mater.
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theres no parking. You have to feed meters,
There will be a massive underground

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if you have to get food out of regular hours theres nothing near it.
How out of hours? I can think of several pubs and restaurants near by and if push cam to shove a 24 hours tesco

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I know the area pretty well, but even for me its a nightmare due to all the no left/right turns at so many junctions. PITA. Even if you overlook the immediate area itself, you have to pass through a lot of other traffic bottlenecks to get to it.
Simply untrue. The traffic in that area generally keeps moving and there are several option to get there
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If I used public transport it would make the round trip about 3 times longer than it takes in the car. Makes no sense to me. Not to mention that public transport is probably the least healthiest way to travel, even for healthy people.
Even currently it all depends where your coming from and with MN it will be massively improved

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On a separate issue putting big hospitals together seems like a great way of spreading infections to me. Considering the Mater was one of the worst in my experience.
By that logic the best way to stop spreading infections would be to have no hospitals at all .
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09-11-2010, 11:21   #52
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...
Simply untrue. The traffic in that area generally keeps moving and there are several option to get there


Even currently it all depends where your coming from and with MN it will be massively improved
Must have imagined the 40 mins it took me to move a mile to reach Dorset st the other evening. Had to abandon the car, and walk to the appointment. Afterwards it took another 30 mins just to get to Glasnevin. That area is almost every traffic report.

Usually people can't choose the time and direction they come from. Kids not being very organised when they get sick or hurt.

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By that logic the best way to stop spreading infections would be to have no hospitals at all .
The Mater had one of the worst records for MRSA. It also came 31 out of 47 in cleanliness survey, while temple street came 7th. In a MRSA survey Mater came 42 out of 47. Thats pretty much my experience of the place. So excuse me if I'm not in a rush to share that expertise.

So they'll have a car park. Eye waveringly expensive compared to something outside of town, no doubt too. Great.
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09-11-2010, 13:05   #53
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So they'll have a car park. Eye waveringly expensive compared to something outside of town, no doubt too. Great.
Free for long term patients I do believe and unlike a green field site there will also be several other options be it on street free, on street paid, or multi-storey. In fact with the competition in the area the car park should be reasonable unlike something outside of town where they can charge what they like as they people have no options .

Last edited by LeinsterDub; 09-11-2010 at 13:07. Reason: typo
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09-11-2010, 13:21   #54
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Then in the real world...

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/articl...itant-parking/
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09-11-2010, 13:46   #55
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going by the last Census figures, Co Dublin has around 28% of the population and the Greater Dublin Area has 39.2%.
So basically your saying that as circa 30% of people live there, you need to put the new NATIONAL hospital in a site that has no green space, no parking, no family accommodation, is not geographically central to the country, etc, but it's fine as it is in Bertie's constituency, and we all know he will make as fantastic a President as he did a Taoiseach?

Oh, did you also forget that it provides acute services to Northern Ireland, which has a population of 1,759,000, so actually, given Greater Dublin is 1,661,185 people, from a total of (1,759,000 + 4,470,700), or 27%? So in fact less than 1 in 3...

I agree however that any site does need public transport links for staff and the 20% of visitors who travel by it. But why MUST it be convenient only to Dubliners?

Just like the motorways, must all paths always lead to Rome Dublin?
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09-11-2010, 17:14   #56
LeinsterDub
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Thus back to my main point . At the mater site you'll have lots more parking options than a green field site in the middle of no where
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09-11-2010, 18:16   #57
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The car park will be expensive to build because the land is so expensive. Once built there'll be no room to expand it, if its not big enough. It will be expensive to park in, to keep commuters out, and competition has no difference to this anywhere else. People have to drive into or across the city center to get to it.

None of those problems exist on a greenfield site. Considering the countries broke and the HSE is a money pit. There is no good reason to choose the most expensive expensive, and least popular location. The only people who are for this location are the HSE and politicans. The medical experts don't want it, the patients don't want it, and the public don't want to pay for it.

Its interesting that as part of the funding they reckon they'll get €90m from car parking. anyone want to take bets the cost will rise, as will the take needed from the car parking.
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09-11-2010, 19:10   #58
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The car park will be expensive to build because the land is so expensive. Once built there'll be no room to expand it, if its not big enough.
Actually, the site at the Mater was donated to the state so it is free, regardless of what is paid for a greenfield site it will be the more expensive option.

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It will be expensive to park in, to keep commuters out, and competition has no difference to this anywhere else. People have to drive into or across the city center to get to it.
Parking will be free for long term patients, this has already been covered. A ticket validation system would keep commuters out.

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None of those problems exist on a greenfield site.
Plenty of other problems do exist with a greenfield site (not co-located with another hospital, contributing to the urban sprawl that is holding back the city, lack of public transport, extra costs associated with buying the site.

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Considering the countries broke and the HSE is a money pit. There is no good reason to choose the most expensive expensive, and least popular location.
I would like to see the detailed costings you have that shows the Mater site to be the most expensive location.

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Its interesting that as part of the funding they reckon they'll get €90m from car parking. anyone want to take bets the cost will rise, as will the take needed from the car parking.
Im sure income from car parking would be part of the funding model for the hospital where ever it is located.

Like I said in the second post on this thread, the last paragraph of the article in the OP says it all; there is no perfect location, there are pros and cons associated with all possible locations, however, the Mater site is the only one with a chance of progressing. If we have to start again and go through site selection, purchasing, planning permission and construction then the hospital will not be built this decade. Just build it on the site we have, giving sick children the facilities they need and in the process saving money compared to the cost of operating three childrens hospitals.

And the final paragraph of the article makes another good point; if this project is stopped, the HSE will be blaimed for the poor facilities for sick children, not the people who are trying to prevent them from providing good facilities. Once again we will be our own worst enemy but will find someone else to blaim.
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09-11-2010, 23:00   #59
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Actually, the site at the Mater was donated to the state so it is free, regardless of what is paid for a greenfield site it will be the more expensive option.
The site is worth 95m approx. That would be better sold off and spent on the mater than giving it away. But of course, by giving it away they attract more funding to themselves, if they tie up with a NCH. Not that they could sell it now, or that its worth that money anymore. Building a multistory has to be more expensive than a big flat car park. Theres hardly any building in the later. Considering the country is broke, why spend more money when you don't have to. And can't afford to.

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Parking will be free for long term patients, this has already been covered. A ticket validation system would keep commuters out.
It might be free for long term patients but I'm sure the bulk of people using the hospital will not be long term.

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Plenty of other problems do exist with a greenfield site (not co-located with another hospital, contributing to the urban sprawl that is holding back the city, lack of public transport, extra costs associated with buying the site.

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Originally Posted by Pete_Cavan View Post
I would like to see the detailed costings you have that shows the Mater site to be the most expensive location. ....Actually, the site at the Mater was donated to the state so it is free, regardless of what is paid for a greenfield site it will be the more expensive option.
The site is worth 95m approx. That would be better sold off and spent on the mater than giving it away. But of course, by giving it away they attract more funding to themselves, if they tie up with a NCH. Not that they could sell it now, or that its worth that money anymore. Building a multistory has to be more expensive than a big flat car park. Theres hardly any building in the later. Considering the country is broke, why spend more money when you don't have to. Look at the design of hospital, its screams expense. Its all curved. You couldn't design it more expensive to build.

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Parking will be free for long term patients, this has already been covered. A ticket validation system would keep commuters out.
It might be free for long term patients but I'm sure the bulk of people using the hospital will not be long term, and they will pay, because where else will the income from the car park come from? Tourists?

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Plenty of other problems do exist with a greenfield site (not co-located with another hospital, contributing to the urban sprawl that is holding back the city, lack of public transport, extra costs associated with buying the site.
85% of people will be in car. Yet the priority is public transport? Better again public transport that doesn't exist yet. The logic of collocation is that you have the back up of other specialists. Problem with that is that not all specialists are in the Mater. So it doesn't even achieve that. Better still it plans to squeeze existing services in other hospital into a site much smaller than they currently have, and claims to have plenty of expansion potential. A gallon into a pint pot would be easier.

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Im sure income from car parking would be part of the funding model for the hospital where ever it is located.
Indeed, but it will be more expensive in a city location.

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Like I said in the second post on this thread, the last paragraph of the article in the OP says it all; there is no perfect location, there are pros and cons associated with all possible locations, however, the Mater site is the only one with a chance of progressing. If we have to start again and go through site selection, purchasing, planning permission and construction then the hospital will not be built this decade. Just build it on the site we have, giving sick children the facilities they need and in the process saving money compared to the cost of operating three childrens hospitals.

And the final paragraph of the article makes another good point; if this project is stopped, the HSE will be blaimed for the poor facilities for sick children, not the people who are trying to prevent them from providing good facilities. Once again we will be our own worst enemy but will find someone else to blaim.
So lets trust the govt and HSE to deliver value for money and good service and save money. Well thats worked will so far hasn't it.

The process that decided this was flawed beyond belief. But if we question it, we're at fault for the project failing.

Last edited by BostonB; 09-11-2010 at 23:03.
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11-11-2010, 02:29   #60
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Honestly! Giving out that the Mater lacks enough near-by hotels and 24 hour food options?

So where is the m50 green-field site that has more of these than Dublin city centre?

The hospital has to have top quality public transport links, not everybody has a car!

All that matters is quality of care for the children, all these other issues are so ridiculously minor in comparison. It would be nice if the quality healthcare was debated as much as car parking spaces!
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