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A rethink in my attitude

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  • 24-08-2010 6:14pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭


    As some of ye are already aware, a close family relative of mine was killed on Sunday morning in a single car accident, a young man of 17 who had just completed his Leaving Cert. I know the assumption that people make (and indeed, I made) when you hear that combination 'crash+17 year old male+ early hours=speeding.'

    Your assumption would be correct...it appears he was speeding. On a stretch of road that he knew like the back of his hand, a stretch of road I would drive very very regularly. It's not exactly what you would call a dangerous stretch. Wide, open, very very slight long bend. However, speeding isn't what appeared to have been the cause of the accident, it appears it was a tyre blowout at an estimated 70-75mph.

    The last two days, I have had the opportunity to see what my own funeral would have been like if i had crashed on one of the nights of sheer driving lunacy i used to regularly have. He was a very similar person to me, in terms of what he did, what he wanted to do, what he drove, his interests and tastes, and in physical appearance. I saw the utter despair and hurt that each family member went through, and I saw the consuming loss that they all felt.

    Since I started driving four years ago, I've had a somewhat relaxed attitude towards speed. I've been pulled over countless times, have had a good few penalty points, and have crashed cars. In the last year or so, I have calmed down a lot. I was never one for speeding around towns/villages or busy areas, but I was quite bold on motorways/national roads. I have more or less obeyed every limit for about the last year ( Partly down to penalty points, partly down to growing maturity), despite having a quicker car now than I've ever had. Despite my own driving, I've never had a problem with people speeding or going too fast on open roads, if that was what they felt like.

    The passenger in the car with him Sunday morning escaped with a broken elbow. He has reported back every detail of what happened. And whats becoming obvious is that, with a lower speed, he might not have died. OK there's no guarantee, but apparently he struggled to keep control of the car for up to ten seconds prior to impact. If he had been going slower, he may not have hit the wall.

    This young man was due to go to his debs tonight, after getting his Leaving Cert results last Wednesday. Right now, he should be at home, putting on his suit and texting his girlfriend. Instead, hes in his grave, wearing the same suit. I am sitting here, dressed in my funeral clothes, ready to get on with the rest of my life. In just over two days, you can be dead and buried, and thats it, the person you were is...gone.

    I am not the only person on Boards who has lost a family member or friend in tragic circumstances. Far from it. I'm partly writing this to vent my own sadness, partly to tell you that the stereotype you form when you hear of a young drivers crash may not be true, and partly to say my new view on speeding.

    It's not a case of 'all speeders must be shot' or that I'm gonna become one of the high horse brigade. It's more a case of....for every extra mph you go, the greater the chance that if something goes wrong, the less chance you have of escaping. This goes for old and young, girls & boys. Is the extra 5mph really worth the utter destruction of the lives of all around you?

    I'm sorry for rambling on a bit, I'm still a bit upset. It's something you never see happening to you. But it can happen to you. His death has done what no advertisement on telly could ever hope to achieve. I saw the extent of his injuries, and it was a violent death. Quick, but violent. No mother should have to do what his mother had to do. No father should ever have identify his dead son by the remains of his arm. No brother should ever want to wear the bloodstained bracelet taken from his corpse. No sister should ever have to stroke the cold, dead, waxy hands in his coffin.

    If you can at all, even just 5mph, just slow down a tiny bit. It could be what prevents you from becoming the latest headline.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    I'm really sorry to hear about the loss.

    But I doubt there's much you can do if the tyre blows.
    I guess the more important thing would be to make sure you tyres are in good condition before going out in the car...

    My front tyres have a few cracks on them though they look very superficial but there's always a risk that they could give way and blow out... Which could be disaterous if on the motorway....

    So I guess it does come down to it being important to mind the speed!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Sympathies, I've lost friends too on the roads. But speeding isn't the problem, and telling people to slow down isn't the solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 543 ✭✭✭CK2010


    Sorry for your loss.

    Nothing anyone says on here could make any of this easier for you, but im sure your post has made a fair few rethink their attitudes to driving, which might (hopefully) prevent others having to going through what you are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I'm really sorry to hear about the loss.

    But I doubt there's much you can do if the tyre blows.
    I guess the more important thing would be to make sure you tyres are in good condition before going out in the car...

    My front tyres have a few cracks on them though they look very superficial but there's always a risk that they could give way and blow out... Which could be disaterous if on the motorway....

    So I guess it does come down to it being important to mind the speed!

    if your tyres have cracks in them they need changing now before you kill someone, maybe yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Sympathies, I've lost friends too on the roads. But speeding isn't the problem, and telling people to slow down isn't the solution.

    undoubtedly speed is a factor in this sad case.The slower you are going in an emergency, the better chance you have


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    corktina wrote: »
    if your tyres have cracks in them they need changing now before you kill someone, maybe yourself.

    You can't see the side wall thread or anything. Its just cracks on the rubber from me hitting the kerb a few times. And they're expensive continental tyres.
    Still I've got to be careful... Might get them replaced sometime in the future. Right now that's the least of the problems with the car. It needs new clutch and all, just standing in the driveway till I start working on it in my garage...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭ottostreet


    My post isn't really to create a discussion about speeding (god knows theres enough of them!), or to cause an argument or debate or anything.

    Neither is it looking for sympathy, I'm not the one who needs it.

    90% of those reading it won't care in any shape or form. Even though I think Plebs was nasty, I can see where his attitude is coming from. I'm not sure what the Bebo reference is to though.

    I've heard that the tires weren't particularly old on the car either, but I'm not sure as to how true that is.

    I don't doubt that telling people to slow down won't work. I don't think anything will, unless you see the effects of a crash yourself. I'm sure any AGS members on here would be able to offer their perspective on a serious crash.

    I'm not even particularly sure why I'm saying to slow down. All I know is that I'm about to get on with the rest of my life, while his is over and done with. And who knows...if he'd been going even 5mph slower, he might have survived, or hit something softer. It's worked on me, there are times when I'd push the pedal down. And now, I'm gonna be too scared to. Even though I know speed limits are fairly arbitary figures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    Might get them replaced sometime in the future

    Touch wood but that comment could come under 'famous last words'. Your tyres are the only thing between you and the road. Change them - seriously!


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    Otto - very sorry to hear about your loss dude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    MCMLXXV wrote: »
    Touch wood but that comment could come under 'famous last words'. Your tyres are the only thing between you and the road. Change them - seriously!

    I've got to see how much money I've got left after I get all the parts fixed on my car... Like they're expensive tyres and have barely done 5000miles on them. They've barely lost any tread...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭johnos1984


    Hi Otto,

    Very sad to read your message and to hear your news. Its very hard to understand the whys and hows when these events happen but rest assured somewhere in all this there is a positive somewhere, even if it is small and hard to see.

    Even if its just people going out and checking their tyres, slow down a bit or even just thinking about their own driving. Its a large sacrifice to have to make to get people to do those things.

    I had to witness a fatal accident near Roscrea a couple of years ago (I was driving behind as it all happened) and that put an end to any notions of speeding that I had. Its sad it took someones life to achieve that

    My thoughts are with you and others affected by this sad news


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Jesus, Ottostreet. That's an incredible post. Thanks for taking the time. It's making me rethink too.

    My heart's with your family.


    ottostreet wrote: »
    My post isn't really to create a discussion about speeding (god knows theres enough of them!), or to cause an argument or debate or anything.

    I was just about to say something like that. I don't think this is the place.


    ottostreet wrote: »
    90% of those reading it won't care in any shape or form. Even though I think Plebs was nasty, I can see where his attitude is coming from. I'm not sure what the Bebo reference is to though.

    That post's deleted. Don't worry about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭joanofarc


    sorry for your loss, good therapy putting your feelings in words here, and i think more readers will take heed then you think. i certainly will. take care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,431 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Very sorry to hear about your loss Ottostreet.

    Thats one hell of a post.

    Seriously makes me think twice. Anyway, my sympathy and best wishes to you and your family.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    I'm very sorry to hear and you're right, this is not the time to point fingers and blame every young driver.
    Sometimes stuff just happens, like in this case a tyre blowout, and nothing anyone could have done about it.
    Sadly it's the nature of life that you never know the cards you have been dealt, or the rules of the game or even how your points are stacked up. I'm sorry to say it's not always fair and not always makes sense.
    All you can do is take it one day at a time, never give up and just go on with life.
    It's still an incredible journey and we're here to experience and to learn, it's not how long you play but how you play.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Ali Babba


    I'm sorry for your loss too OP, I too have lost people dear to me, suddenly and over periods of time but i'm a firm believer that when your number's up it's up.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    ottostreet that's one of the best posts I've read on this site, never mind forum. It's also one of the most measured on this subject. Deepest sympathies to you and yours. If just one person reads it and slows down and drives within their and their cars limits it will have been worth every one of your hard typed letters. Kudos.



    FWIW otto a blowout can just happen. OK It's much more likely with old, worn and improperly inflated tyres, but it can happen even with new or nearly new tyres. Happened to me not too long ago. Had a front blow at near 60 in old money. They were less than 4 months old of easy driving. I was very lucky as I had enough room to manoeuvre and good brakes. Nothing to do with driver skill anyway. What ended up as a "you'll never guess" story in the pub for me could have very easily gone either way. So your post is sobering reading for me too.

    Check your tyres folks. Weekly and before a long journey. So few do. Don't wait until the NCT to check your brakes(pads, disc wear and fluid levels) and steering components. Learn about them and if you feel its beyond you, then bring your car to someone who can check it for you. We tend to think so much of engines and horsepower and funky extras, but they won't save your life.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭kerten


    OP Sorry for your friend and his family. Your post is very meaningful.

    I would like to add a different angle to fact you are pointing as I live in Ireland for 3 years only and drive every day. And driving habits in my home country is so different than here.

    OP points that speeding is dangerous which is correct as less control on the car in any kind of situation.

    All discussions around speeding ends up conclusion with speeding is dangerous so what is the proper speed we need to travel on roads?

    Is obeying speed limits ok ? No I think it is dangerous sometimes

    I think speed limits in back roads are set too high or too low most of the times. General approach I see in boards or everywhere is sticking with speed limits always which can be dangerous easily in poor backroads of Ireland.

    I have no problem with motorways and national roads as they are designed in a safer way with hard shoulders, barriers and wider lanes. But backroads don't tolerate any mistakes of driver or fault in car like blown tyre.

    Narrow Lanes + trees or walls next to lanes + sharp bends + potholes = you are always in danger because every human being is prone to do mistakes.

    In my home country, we never obey speed limits(I know I know) but our roads tolerates small mistakes as they are designed with this expectations. They are not straight 6 lanes roads but there is always some tolerance. I drove fast back there but I never drove fast enough to feel unsafe. So we drive faster in comparison of speed but I feel safer there than irish backroads. Let me explain:

    At backroads, I am one of slow drivers who doesn't stick to speed limits(80 km/h that my e46 3 series can't handle easily on this particular road continously) most of the time as I expect worst while driving. But on the road I see jeeps who turns bends at high speeds without seeing road ahead or tailgaiting ambitiously while you are doing 70 km/h on a 80 km/h road. I see many driver drives their car in its limits at bends like their tyre grip will be always same or braking on a sharp bend won't cause a spin. People always drive like there is nothing on this road other than themselves then can't react to hazards.

    Let's take the OP's friend as an example. He can be perfect driver who travels in his supersport car at 70-75 mph at a backroad. what happens if a banger with bald tyres slides on a bend 15 cm and touches backside of his car. that's enough for a fatal crash for OP's friend while he didn't do any mistake other than speeding. Let's say this road has 80 kmh speed limit and he sticks to this limits in same situation, he may survive but injured badly.

    So correct behaviour should be anticipating dangerous/risky areas in the road that other drivers can do mistakes easily and slow down there until you see a straight road to reduce damage


    So I think people needs to learn to anticipate what is the safe speed on back roads regardless speed limits.

    Irish backroads are not safest in the world so people should re-think about their driving habits at backroads for their safety


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    kerten wrote: »
    Irish backroads are not safest in the world so people should re-think about their driving habits at backroads for their safety
    I agree 100% kerten. Some, actually many of the speed limits on Irish backroads are daftly high. And too many Irish drivers see them as a target. I drive a yoke that is better than a large proportion of cars out there as far as handling at speed on the twisty bits and on many roads if I was to drive at near the limit it would be work, sometimes hard work and the car would be fighting the road. So I take it handy and yet I'll get passed by people in cars doing those speeds on the limit of adhesion and the drivers are blissfully unaware how close they may be to disaster. Yes its easy to point the finger at those drivers, but its a cultural thing too. Its not just young men either. Ignorance of speed and ignorant of the danger of what happens when their limits are breached. "Oh it can't happen to me/I've got four wheel drive/I have traction control/etc". Ive been unlucky enough to have come behind and seen three fatal crashes in my driving life. I dont mind admitting I had nightmares after. All but one weren't going that fast, but too fast for the road. In one way I was lucky, because it slowed me the hell down.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Subscribers Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭TCP/IP


    You have a way with words that strike home more than any road safety authority could.
    I dont know if this is right to say by super post.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Mr.David


    An amazing post, I'm sure everyone who reads it will reflect in their own way on their driving habits.

    Condolences to you and your extended family, I can only imagine how difficult the situation is.

    Well done again though on the post, its definitely worth doing.





    af_thefragile - maybe if you post some photos of the damage to the tyre you can get some opinions (on a separate thread obviously).


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,080 ✭✭✭✭Big Nasty


    One of the scariest spots in the country is the section of the N4 between Kilcock and Kinnegad. Many drivers take this route every morning / evening to avoid the €3? toll on the M4, probably costing themselves more in fuel then the relevant savings. That stretch of road is now reduced to 80kmph on a bumpy undulating road and I have regularly seen drivers doing 120kmph+ and overtaking on bends. I would consider myself as a pretty fast driver but this is truly scary stuff!


  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭kerten


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yes its easy to point the finger at those drivers, but its a cultural thing too. Its not just young men either. Ignorance of speed and ignorant of the danger of what happens when their limits are breached. "Oh it can't happen to me/I've got four wheel drive/I have traction control/etc".

    Agreed Wibbs.

    I think driving test in ireland can focus on backroads driving at higher speeds(60+ kmh) to assess driver's anticipation of narrow roads and bends.

    I think questions about esp and abs to increase awareness of these systems can be useful to get people to understand that if you are in a position to need them, it means you have dangerous driving habits.

    I have a strange guess about backroads as they are kept narrow and unlit on purpose to apply a psychological restriction on speeding to prevent accidents but it doesn't work.

    just wanted to add;

    A blown tyre is bad luck if tyre is not older than 4 years and not bald. But please don't buy cheapest possible chinese brand tyres when you shop for a tyre to save 10 euro per tyre. Expensive tyres are not for race cars only, they are expensive because they don't lose their grip quickly after a while. They have better quality control process to prevent faulty tyres to be sold Save on everything but not on tyres. At least go for known asian brands if you are on a budget not for linglong, sunny, triangle, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭chasm


    Ottostreet, that has to be one of the most heartfelt and thought provoking posts i've ever read on boards, and I Thank You for sharing it with us.
    May I extend my deepest sympathies to you and your family.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭moonshadow


    Otto as some one who has lost close relatives in collisions and also admit to being an auld fella of 39 years old,of the 142 guys that were in my final year 22 of them (that i know of) have died as a result of collisions,
    Your post is one of grief,shock and sense.
    My thoughts and sympathies go to you and your family,if this is not post of the day then it should be post of the month


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    moonshadow wrote: »
    Otto as some one who has lost close relatives in collisions and also admit to being an auld fella of 39 years old,of the 142 guys that were in my final year 22 of them (that i know of) have died as a result of collisions,

    Otto's post was moving, but that is truly scary stuff!
    There's a statistic that puts it into perspective, how is that possible?
    That is carnage and I never thought it would be that bad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭techman


    Great post.

    Everyone should read it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭stealthyspeeder


    Sorry for you loss ottostreet, Im genuinely moved by your post, going to check my tyres tomo morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭knifey_spoonie


    I dont think you can really put into words what reading that post does to you, It is the very first thing i have ever read on here that i have actually stoped and honestly thought about. This is the kind of thing we need out there, in road safety campaigns. It really hits home that driver training shouldn't start with a learners permit, it should start at 15/16.

    Its a real thought provoking post, will I drive slower, I dont know, I sure as hell have thought hard about my driving in the past 10 minutes, and I think thats what alot of people out there have to do.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kwalshe


    otto, as I read your post his face was glaring up at me from the cover of the carlow nationalist beside me. He is only a kid, he had only started life. I'm sorry for your loss.
    Recently having my 3rd child made me slow down to be always under the limit. If i had not done it already, your post would have stopped me speeding.


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