[Sparks]

For Sale/Wanted Forum Charter

Welcome to the boards.ie shooting forums!
These forums are for the discussion of various topics relating to the shooting sports (ie. the various forms of target shooting events) and to sport shooting (ie. hunting with firearms). There are four forums in total, one for Target Shooting, one for Hunting, a For Sale/Wanted forum, and this main forum which acts as a general forum as well as holding some specific topics, such as "political" threads that people would prefer are kept out of the various sub-forums.

The forum you are in right now is the For Sale/Wanted forum and it is primarily to facilitate the private sale of firearms or related shooting sports equipment or sports shooting equipment. Boards.ie has a forum for the sale of general items - http://www.adverts.ie so no non-shooting related items are to be posted for sale here. It's not possible to come up with a definitive list but basically if it's not specifically shooting related, it's not for here.

Rules

There are some. We try to keep them minimal and they exist to allow the forum to flourish rather than to penalise people, but they are enforced.
Boards.ie as a site has some basic guidelines for how to be a better poster as well as some very basic site rules (as well as a few rules regarding your signature -- and while we're on the topic folks, please remember that a disclaimer in your signature doesn't overrule the charter. Break a rule in the charter and it won't matter if your signature says "only kidding"). We recommend that you read them. If you've never posted on a forum before, you might also want to look at this beginner's guide.

There are some basic rules which apply in all the shooting forums (you may notice some overlap with the general site rules here). We've listed them in short form here; we discuss them in more detail in the posts below in case you have a question on any of them.

1. Be Civil to one another.
2. You are not the internet police.
3. Replies should be on-topic.
4. No Spamming, no Shilling, no Random Nonsense.
5. Anonymity is a social construct.
6. There are limits on the discussion of current events and media reportage.
7. RKBA is off-topic.
8. Illegality is... illegal
9. Respect formatting ettiquette.
10. If you don't like the modding, follow procedure.

There are also some forum-specific rules:

1. No unauthorised commercial selling
2. Firearms Sales should be done via RFD
3. No Live Wild Animals
4. A reminder about legal constraints is not a prohibition on a sale
5. No "Thread Spoiling"
6. Wanted Threads should be specific.
7. Thread Titles should be properly prefixed.
   Threads should be prefixed with "For Sale:" or "Wanted:" to make it clear what the thread is about
8. Items permitted/not permitted, and general rule of bumping adverts
9. Advertising for a third party
10. Non "Relevant" responses in Wanted Threads

Please note that looking for loopholes in rulesets is a violation of the first boards.ie guideline of "Don't be a dick"...

And please remember folks, this is a public forum, and the Department of Justice and the Gardai read it, the same way they read shooting magazines and newsletters. Like it or not, you are all public ambassadors for your sports when you post in here or anywhere else in public; so please, take pride in your posts and make us proud, don't make us weep...

A side effect of this public status is that defamation is something we have to keep in mind when moderating. We believe that when there's a problem, a civil disagreement, even a civil argument, is to our community what fibre in the diet is to a person - a preventative for even worse problems. We don't believe in letting things hide under rocks and grow worse for it.

For that reason, genuine posts are all welcome here - regardless of whether they are positive or negative; or of whether they are about
goods or services provided by commercial companies, or about clubs or associations. We believe this is a genuinely good way for those who provide an excellent service to be recognised as such; and that it is one of the best ways for others to find out what they could be doing better.

However, please take note of this - the posts must be genuine. We do not allow people to 'get the boot in' or to use boards.ie ltd as an anonymous platform to unjustly defame others. We never have and we're not interested in starting now.

There are also boards.ie guidelines on defamation that you may want to read.

The rule we use on this is very simple:

• if you're posting the facts about your experience and they're negative, there's nothing wrong with that;
• if you're posting your opinion of the person or people involved, you're in a gray area;
• and if you're just having a bitching session or trying to get the boot in, well, your post is getting edited or deleted
  at a bare minimum.

If you want to err on the side of caution, just report the facts and skip the editorial. Have faith that the rest of us are intelligent enough to draw the same conclusions you did - and take comfort in the fact that when people draw their own conclusions, they have more impact than when those conclusions are drawn for them.

Lastly, a brief word about people having multiple accounts on boards.ie -- it's not allowed, except in certain circumstances such as where someone is posting under a personal account and a verified representative account. In all such circumstances, the mods must be informed of the dual account ahead of time. For those who have multiple accounts, we can and do spot them, and you will be banned for using them.

What if the rules are broken?

In the event that someone breaks one of the rules above, the specific sanction that will be taken will largely depend on the context. There are several kinds of sanction which moderators may use (along with editing or deletion of posts):

1. A private word by PM with the poster to point out the problem and try to resolve it.
2. A public note in the thread itself (often referred to as a Mod Notice or a Mod Warning) pointing out the problem and requiring that it be resolved.
3. A Warning for the poster.
4. An Infraction for the poster.
5. A ban from the forum for the poster, either temporarily or permanently.

It should be noted that in exceptional circumstances, a poster may be banned from the entire site, though happily this happens extremely rarely.

Here are some general questions and answers you may have as a new user, feel free to PM any moderator if you have questions you cannot find an answer to in the Frequently Asked Questions list.

• How do I reply to a post?
• Can I edit or delete my posts?
• How can I create a poll?
• How can I attach an image to my post?

You can find a list of the more important threads in the forum here. We don't generally stick those threads to the top of the forum because it would take up too much room, but we do stick the list to the top of the forum for quick reference.

And lastly, if you have a question about obtaining a firearms certificate or renewing your existing certificate under the new firearms licensing system, please be sure to read this announcement first, it lists all the information we have on that topic in a single place for your convenience.

[Sparks]

No unauthorised commercial selling

This forum exists for the benefit of the shooting community; not for that of commercial companies. Happily, in some specific cases, if the company does things the right way, we can find a means by which both the company and the community can benefit. To facilitate this, boards.ie has created the role of Verified Representative. These are accounts used by commercial entities on boards.ie, as well as other groups such as (in our case), clubs, national governing bodies, and so forth. They allow those entities to interact with the community here, but require them to adhere to certain site rules:

Verified Representatives are subject to the same rules and charters as all our members:

• You can respond to any thread raised by a member to help resolve or clarify issues
• You help and inform those involved in and reading the discussion
• You benefit in reputation, awareness and engagement with your organisation

What they cannot do:

• Verified representatives cannot post in every forum on Boards.ie. Posts should be in response to existing threads about your organisation only. Some forums do not allow verified representatives.
• This is not a sales or advertising medium – threads deemed inappopriate by the forum moderators will be removed
• Your status as verified representative does not allow you any privileges above any other member on Boards.ie – if you intentionally break forum rules, you will not get special treatment
• Where there are multiple conversations or you need to initiate conversations about your company, we may ask you to set up a “Talk To” forum

Further, Verified Representatives of commercial companies within the Shooting forum are also required to adhere to the following within our forums. We expect Verified Representatives in Shooting to:

• Follow the rules and guidelines of the site and the forum
• Behave professionally at all times
• Engage openly and honestly on site
• Give good advice and service
• Contribute to the community and the forums they engage in
• Only mention their business/product in response to specifically relevant posts. (Such responses will get more leeway if they also contain useful/relevant information)

Each commerical company's Verified Representative will get their own thread in the For Sale/Wanted forum where unsolicited commercial offer posts (price lists, special offers, etc) must be posted; new services may be discussed and/or announced outside of this thread (such as Davy's hunting knife design thread or Intershoot's batch testing service threads), but as mentioned above, this must be discussed with a moderator by PM first.


And in Shooting, a verified representative should not:

• Seek to recruit customers or website visitors or run any promotion – discounts, competitions or surveys – without permission from the mods
• Post press-releases or unsolicited company updates
• Comment about their competitors unless strictly relevant. This includes engaging on threads about competitors.
• Interrupt threads not relevant to their organisation, product or service in an effort to get noticed
• Seek to close threads critical of their organisation. Their account is for clarifying, discussing and taking feedback where appropriate.
• Thread spoil in the Wanted/For Sale forum. Along with the usual definition, for a Verified Representative this means no jumping into someone's For Sale thread offering the same or similar item for a better price, or as part of a better deal, or posting a separate thread offering the same/similar item for sale in obvious close proximity to the original 'For Sale' thread.
• Engage in over-enthusiastic responding to Wanted posts. Sensibly constructed contributions to 'Wanted' threads are okay.

All Verified Representatives must understand that there's an underlying philosophy to all of these rules and how we will apply them, namely; the forum is a community which exists for the benefit of the community. We're not the shooting branch of Buy'n'Sell, and we're not a mere noticeboard. If they come in here, it's socially expected that they will contribute to the community. And we're not talking about a subscription fee, but a more useful kind of contribution, like the way Intershoot runs batch testing runs for shooters, or the way Davy Moore worked with the Hunting forum to produce his knife design, or by answering questions (even tough ones) from the community.

If you wish to become a Verified Representative here on behalf of your company or your club or your association or governing body, please contact one of the Moderators.

For those companies who wish to skip this step, we wish to remind them that the Consumer Information Advertisements Disclosure of Business Interests Order 1984 (Republic of Ireland) requires all advertisements from persons selling goods in the course of a business to make that fact clear. This requirement applies whether the advertiser is acting on his own behalf or for some other person in the course of whose business goods are to be sold. We also wish to point out that both we and Boards.ie take a dim view of people using this site for free commercial advertising like that.

For other non-commercial entities who wish to skip this step, we remind you of a long-standing message from the Administrators of this site:

Originally Posted by DeVore

Hi there,
I went to our lawyers today to talk to them about the on going problems we have here with the misuse of this forum by national associations of Shooting. It was a VERY interesting meeting and this is the outcome.

By using our platform, against our express wishes, the said associations would be not only breaching our terms of service and our express wishes but also undermining our advertising model and thus damaging our business.

As such, any officer or representative of any national or regional association who posts on this forum or the sub forums herein, either explicitly or under pretense or subterfuge to promote their association either explicitly or to promote their associations standpoint by subterfuge, will be deemed to have implicitly ACCEPTED A CHARGE OF €950 euro PER POST MADE. Posts made in this manner may (and most likely WILL) be removed without refund.

How will we know? Internet IP's and times can be queried at the ISP (under court order which we have gotten before quite readily) to reveal names and addresses of those who posted from them. If you think that wont stand up in court, we've already done this twice before and successfully convicted a hacker who attacked the site some years back. You are not at ALL anonymous on the internet.

The time and cost of this investigation will be added onto the costs incurred at €100 per hour of our time. Damages will then be filed for against the association for which the officer/representative will be deemed to have acted.

If you think we arent serious, think about MCD and our on going legal fight with them.

I know you all think you are big and clever. Let me tell you, you arent. This is our world online, you visit it but we built it and we ****in' own it.

Get lost before this gets nasty.

DeV.

[Sparks]

Firearms Sales should be done via RFD

Any firearms or components of firearms (ie anything that requires a licence or Garda Authorisation) should be sold via a registered firearms dealer.
When posting these items for sale here you should have:

• Make/Model of firearm
• Description of firearm
• Asking price for firearm
• Details of Firearms Dealer being used
• Any other relevant info

[Sparks]

No Live Wild Animals

We've gotten provisional permission from the Admins to allow the sale of live animals in this forum.

This is something of a BIG DEAL, as it's the first time that we know of that the offer for sale of living creatures has been officially sanctioned anywhere within the entire Boards.ie/Adverts.ie hierarchy, and as such, this will be under some scrutiny from outside the Shooting forums.
With this in mind, we don't want to go shi**ing on our own doorstep.

This is intended to facilitate genuine enthusiasts in finding suitable homes for their working gundogs or ferrets.
Commercial sales will be regarded in the same way as any other attempted commercial sale, and the moderators reserve the right to question the bona fides of sellers/sales which appear suspicious.

For the moment and until we get definitive advice on legality, the sale or trade of wildlife remains prohibited, as does the sale or trade of animals for use as bait or decoys. This includes the 'donation' of wildlife for the purposes of repopulation.
Pets, horses, dogs for coursing, and anything else that doesn't fall under the umbrella of Shooting Hunting as it is understood and practised in Ireland, are also prohibited.

This is a work in progress and will no doubt require some fine tuning and tweaking, so please treat this new facility with the respect it deserves and give it a chance to settle down and develop.
Within the norms of Shooting/Hunting as practised in Ireland, live animals may be offered for sale.
For the moment, this is restricted to gundogs and ferrets; if you wish to trade in any other type of animal, contact the forum mods by PM before posting anything.
Specifically prohibited are wild animals, animals related to Fox Hunting (mounted) & Coursing, and animals for use as bait or decoys.
Pets and other domestic/domesticated livestock (horses, cattle, etc) are also prohibited.
All the normal rules regarding legality and commercial selling strictly apply.

[Sparks]

A reminder about legal constraints is not a prohibition on a sale

Since this has come up several times in the forum's history, please note that when some items are advertised, a mod may point out that permission from the local superintendent is required for the buyer to legally take possession of them.
This does not mean that the seller is engaging in an illegal act.
It does not mean that the buyer is engaging in an illegal act.
It does not mean that the item is illegal.
It is simply due diligence on the part of the moderators to remind potential buyers (where it might be forgotten) that some items cannot be sold across the counter as commodities.

Getting into an argument over this isn't required or appreciated.

The following items do require your local superintendent's permission before taking possession of same:

• Silencers / Sound moderators
• Night Vision Scopes (but not Night Vision equipment that's not designed to fit to a rifle, such as night vision binoculars)
• Laser sights (but not laser boresights)

[Sparks]

No "Thread Spoiling"

If you are not interested in buying an item, do not comment on it. In addition, any posters shall

• ...not impersonate any person or entity, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with any person or entity;
• ...not reply saying "you can get X cheaper here" or "that's way too expensive";
  • We don't care. Replies like that end up in flame wars. It is up to the Buyer to find that out. It is a Buyers market after all. If someone is way off the mark with an asking price (and we mean WAY off), post a link to the current available price (like-for-like, VAT, and postage must be commented on).
• ...not carry out any unsolicited, or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail", "spam", "chain letters", "pyramid schemes" or any other form of solicitation;
• ...not disrupt the normal flow of dialogue, cause a screen to "scroll" faster that the other users of the site are able to type, or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users' ability to engage in real time exchanges;
• ...not offer a stick of rock, granny, sister, cat or any other item that you may think is funny in return for the item for sale;

[Sparks]

An addendum to clarify a point in the above rules:

NSFW (Not Safe For Work):
Any material deemed NSFW will be immediately removed and the user may face infraction. This includes, but is not limited to, inappropriate/pornographic style pictures, links to inappropriate/pornographic websites, and so forth.

This forum is where a lot of prospective new shooters get pointed to; we'd prefer if we didn't scare off potential new shooters. Sending a prospective Junior here to look at what the sport is like only for their parents to see porn here and decide that they'd prefer their child to take up tennis instead loses us a new shooter. That sort of thing damages our sport in the medium to long term, quite badly (our average age was just shy of 50 the last time someone asked). Exactly the same is true when we send a new lady shooter here and they find people oogling over photos that belong more in FHM than in Ways of the Rifle.

So NSFW material, along with NSFW behaviour (ie. sexism, racism, ageism and other bigotry) is not on and will be deleted. We want to encourage everyone to engage in boards, not just one small demographic while everyone else gets offended by it.

[Cass]

Recently there has been and increasing number of posts/threads advertising items that do not in any way come close to hunting/shooting related items.

We have always said there is no definitive list of what can and cannot be advertised. However alot of lads/ladies use the hunting/shooting forum more than any other or solely. For this reason they tend to advertise all items they wish to sell on the shooting For Sale/Wanted section.

The mods will now be paying closer attention to the adverts posted. If an item is not a firearm or other directly related shooting item then it will be removed.

The purpose of this for sale section was to give our members a convenient and safe place to advertise their shooting stuff without the fear of it being removed due to "policy". As in Donedeal, Buy & Sell, etc. However more and more items are being advertised when there are more than one alternative that can be used. A few examples;

• Dogs - Gundogs are shunned by some advertising outlets. If a dog is a trained gun dog or of a breed that is regualrly used then it is permitted. However selling a Shih tzu, St. Bernard, etc is not a shooting related item/dog, therefore it can be advertised for free elsewhere (Adverts.ie, B&S, etc)
• Trailers - A trailer built for, and solely used for the transportig of gun dogs is fine. An 8'x4' (etc) car/jeep trailer that could be used for something else is not. There is an adverts section on the motoring forum (4x4, Jeeps, etc) for this purpose.
• Vehicles - There are a multitude of sites including Adverts.ie, Buy & Sell, Carzone, 4x4 (Boards) that all accomodate the selling of Jeeps, Quads, etc. Even though they may used when hunting they are not a directly hunting/shooting related item.

The general idea, as stated above, is to provide a safe, and hassle free environment for people to sell items others sites have banned.

Three other points that need clarification.

1. Multiple Posting - There has been an increase in multiple posting of the same adverts. Instead of using a new thread each time simply post a new post in an EXISTING thread to "bump" it up. Mistakes can happen especially with new members that are unfamiliar with forum rules. Any multiple posting of the same threads will result in all but the original thread bein deleted.
2. Bumping - This is when you update an advert and by doing so bring the advert back to the top of the listings. While there is no problem with doing this some are using this function on a daily basis to maintain their advert on the front page. For the sake of fairness this will now no longer be allowed. By this we mean you may bump your advert, but not within 48 hours of posting it or since the last "bump" (in whatever format that is. For example a question, post from another member, etc.). So if you bump and advert at 6pm on a Monday and there is no activity, and you bump it again Tuesday at 6pm th bump will be deleted. Do so again will result in an infraction. Continue to do so will result in further infraction. Any "natural" bumps via questions from buyers or answering buyers is acceptable within this 48 hour timeframe, however if the advert is not yours please refrain from "bumping" via "I have one of these", "these are a top X", etc. IOW bumping through others.
3. SOLD - Lastly, and for the sake of a "clean forum" if any item is sold if the OP could simply post such in the thread a mod will check the forum once a day, and then change the title to suit. When someone does a search of Boards or even Google, they are being directed to old threads of items for sale that have long since sold, but because there is no post from the OP or changing of the title by a mod (because we do not know its sold) people are dragging up old threads, and cluttering up the front pages. So if the OP can post "Sold" when their item sells it will inform the mods, and prevent old/zombie threads being constantly brought to the top for no reason.

All these things are covered in the For Sale/Wanted charter, but to keep this forum running smoothly it's important we get your co-operation to help it run so.

Thanks.

Mod Team.

[Cass]

Placing an advert on behalf of a third party/friend will now only be permitted on a once off basis, and with prior permission & consultation with the mod team. We have never set any minimum amount of posts for new members to reach in order to avail of the For Sale services/forum, however with the significant increase in adverts for friends coupled with the already increased number of adverts by existing members we must introduce some limitations to prevent any "abuse" of the forum which may lead to loosing the facility.


To that end the following will come into effect immediately as of 17-March-2012.

• Existing members may sell their items as normal without the need for prior consultation/permission.
• New members may also post adverts for their items without consultation/prior permission so long as the items belong to them, and are not the property of a third party.
• Existing members or new members wishing to advertise items for a friend or any third party MUST first contact the mods (all three) via the PM system, explain what they are selling, that the person selling has any/all necessary licenses, a full description of the item(s), and finally the reason why the person cannot advertise the items themselves.

Please be aware that the For Sale section is a facility set up for members to help them in selling/buying goods. We do not wish to see this facility abused to a point where it must be withdrawn, and to ensure this does not hapen we (mods) will enforce these new rules without notification to the user in question.

• Any members, new or existing, found to be exploiting the For Sale/Wanted forum wil face infraction.
• Any member found to be selling goods that are not their own, without having sought permission prior to posting will also face infraction.
• Any member that withholds information from a mod during this consultation will have the advert removed, and face infraction.

As has been said many times before this selling platform is there for your benfit. It is your responsibility to read the forum rules, and understand them, as the excuse of "I did not know" will not be accepted for breaches of the charter.

Ez.

[Cass]

With the recent upsurge in sales, and wanted threads there is a growing trend for threads to become "where to go" rather than people responding with an offer or item.

While there will be some crossover some threads read more like a recommendation threads than people offering items that are being sought. The For Sale/Wanted forum is for members to sell their wares or seek a specific item. The replies should be from members that have the item being sought or a similar item that may suffice. Lately though the majority or responses are from people that do not have an/the item being sought but are recommending a dealer/shop to go to.

As each thread is different it will now be judged on thread per thread basis. If a thread becomes "filled" with responses informing the OP as to a shop to try those responses will be removed. We understand that sometimes an item will not be available from another member, and in these circumstances a recommendation for a shop will be allowed, but only under the specific rule that the person posting the shop name can provide;

• The shop definitely has the exact item.
• A contact number/details for the shop.
• A price for the item.

Any responses deemed "shilling" or advertising either directly or indirectly for the shop will be removed.

[Cass]

This is not the place for a discussion on what's the best to buy, etc.; you can do that in the general shooting board. While we understand that a wanted thread may deviate from the original item being sought to an item not thought of before, it should still remain specific.

So examples of what IS NOT allowed;

• Looking for a gun.
• Looking for a shotgun.
• Looking for a rifle.
• Where should i get "X"?
• Anyone know any dealers that stock "X"?
• What's the best place to buy "X"?

While no definitive list exists based on the above you get the idea. A thread should have a specific item (or as specific as you can make it), a budget, and any other relevant details. in keeping with rule 10 it should also be an item being sought from a member. So if looking for information on a dealer's stock start a thread in the general forum. Examples of such threads;

• Wanted; Varmint rifle in .223 or ,204. Remmy or Sako. Budget €1,000.
• Wanted: Target scope. Nightforce or Sightron. Budget €1,000.
• Wanted: Over/Under shotgun, Beretta or Browning, budget €1,000.

If you are not sure what you want then start a thread, ask for opinions, make a decision on one or two models, and then post your advert.

[Cass]

There are rules in the for sale section that are continuously being ignored, not read, or not followed. Nothing new has being introduced within the last 6 months giving enough time for anyone posting there to have read them and understand what is necessary.

However threads are still being started without the necessary details so for clarity reasons here is what is needed.


For Sale Adverts.

• Detailed description of the item(s) being sold. Condition, new/second hand, usage, history, etc.
• Price you are seeking. No invites for offers, a definitive price. You are free to refuse any offers made on this price, but a price must be posted.
• Pictures of the item(s). Not something you have taken from a another site (against copyright laws) but an actual picture of the item(s) in your possession. How many is up to you, but obviously the more the merrier.

Wanted Adverts.

• An exact description, or to the best of your ability, of the item being sought. What it is you need it for, and if necessary certain makes/models you want or don't.
• A rough budget. IOW if you are looking for a scope and have €500 to spend then put this up. No point inviting offers of Swarovski, Nightforce, etc if they exceed your budget.
• No random opinion threads. Please do not post a thread in the for sale section seeking opinions on make models that is what the main fora are for.
• No "anyone know of a shop that does X, Y, Z". A thread asking about certain shops will answer all your questions. If you post a wanted advert in the for sale/wanted section it is because you are seeing if any other member has such an item for sale. not if they have a link to e-bay, etc.

The for sale /wanted section was created for our members to safely sell items that are prohibited on most other sites due to them being gun related. Ideally we would like all items being sold, and being sought to be among our members, but most times (primarily wanted adverts) end up as a recommendation thread for various sites, shops, etc, etc. Furture threads that end this way will be moved to the relevant forum, and out of the for sale section.



Any threads posted without the details relevant to their status will be removed without notification. If you don't have pictures then wait until you do before posting the advert. Do not post a thread with the promise of pictures, price, more details later. It will be removed.


This notice is being posted across all fora for one day so people can read the rules, and understand what is required. It is a notification to be mindful, and not a chastisation.

[Cass]

Just an update.

We have now got a new drop down option for the For Sale section. The "Free" option.

If anyone has an item, hunting dog, etc that they wish to pass on free of charge or to re-home then they post the advert as normal, but use the Free option instead of for sale.


Hopefully this will bring more attention to the items that are free, and confusion created from using for sale tag for a free item will disappear.


Thanks.

Mod team.