ROEDALE PRECISION

tommyboy26 · 11-04-2010 8:55pm #1

anyone ever bought anything from this website www.roedale.de like the look of the RCS2.

tommy

jwshooter · 11-04-2010 9:36pm

i have a few english friends that have had work done with them .in a word " Disaster "

ejg · 11-04-2010 11:45pm

In the Uk there was a lot of bashing going on, mainly to divert business to others.
Pete Lincoln is a brilliant gunsmith and is designing very good kit since a while. He might not be the best sales man though.
One thing is for sure, every thing he builds is made to withstand hard abuse.
Best is to send an e-mail to Geoff, he'll respond better.
If needs be, I could possibly also help.

edi

murph226 · 12-04-2010 12:22am

jwshooter wrote: »

i have a few english friends that have had work done with them .in a word " Disaster "

please elaborate?

johngalway · 12-04-2010 12:52pm

If you enjoy frustration, go for it.

Otherwise, stay away.

murph226 · 12-04-2010 1:01pm

please explain lads, is it the long wait that is offputting or is it the quality of the work?

johngalway · 12-04-2010 8:06pm

Exceptionally long delays in builds, extremely poor communication with customers. That was the situation last time I checked them out via customer reports. The situation may have changed since then, I wouldn't risk my money there personally.

Als76 · 12-04-2010 8:53pm

Hi tommy boy, i bought a Robertson T3 and it was delivered in time. Make sure you get a tracking number.

murph226 · 12-04-2010 8:55pm

Robertson T3

jwshooter · 12-04-2010 9:19pm

robertson make stocks for tikka T3s .

dont know of a builder in that name

murph226 · 12-04-2010 9:51pm

cheers JW, just fond them there!

I dunno, for that money I'd have to go for the Roedale RCS!

roedale · 13-04-2010 11:16am

Hi fellas.
yes we had some problems in the past and I'm the first to admit that things didn't go to plan.
I started the riflesmithing business 5 years ago as a part time venture. At the time i was also working in mission control for the European Space Agency. The ESA job was 300miles away from home and workshop, which was fine for a start as we had 7 days on 7 days off.
Things went wrong at a point for a couple of reasons,
1. I was let down by mcmillan stocks on a delivery due to thier fullfilling a large millitary contract.
2. My then action supplier got seriously ill with cancer
3.My wife became ill
4. My ESA team was cut from 12 to 6 and days off from 7 to 3.

Something had to give. and it did. As Edi said, some of the "competition" and their lap dogs used the situation to good advantage and i got a shed load of bad press.

2 1/2 years ago i went full time. did things improve. well no for a start, not realy. We got ripped of by the builder who was supposed to build the new workshop, we had to chase him for the money back, and instead of machining barrels i was brick laying. Finaly got the workshop done and moved in in December 2008.
We got about 9 months of hassle free work and things where looking bright, when my Dad was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus. Dad cared for Mum ( Mum has alzheimers) so i did try and get back to East Yorkshire as much as i could, given the diagnosis. Dad had a stroke in December and unfortunately passed away in February this year. Mum is now well cared for in a home.

As you can imagine the last 5 years have been a right bitch.
But. Despite all the setbacks, Ive managed to produce a steady stream of high quality custom rifles, ( between 70 and 100 per year) Ive taken on 3 staff, and in the last 18months we've brought many new, own design products onto the market. including the RCS, Howa Mag systems, muzzle brakes and our own moderator. We exhibited at the 2009 and 2010 IWA. Of course, as for any retailer and riflesmith supply of parts is a real challenge ( you guys know how difficult the export from the USA has become i am sure) but we work hard to fill the gaps with our own designs. and I personaly think that we have achieved a hell of a lot when one considers the setbacks we've been dealt.
It would be great if prospective customers can see beyond the hard times in the past and give us a chance to prove what we can do.

Yours respectfully. Pete Lincoln

ronboy · 13-04-2010 1:27pm

roedale wrote: »

Hi fellas.
yes we had some problems in the past and I'm the first to admit that things didn't go to plan.
I started the riflesmithing business 5 years ago as a part time venture. At the time i was also working in mission control for the European Space Agency. The ESA job was 300miles away from home and workshop, which was fine for a start as we had 7 days on 7 days off.
Things went wrong at a point for a couple of reasons,
1. I was let down by mcmillan stocks on a delivery due to thier fullfilling a large millitary contract.
2. My then action supplier got seriously ill with cancer
3.My wife became ill
4. My ESA team was cut from 12 to 6 and days off from 7 to 3.

Something had to give. and it did. As Edi said, some of the "competition" and their lap dogs used the situation to good advantage and i got a shed load of bad press.

2 1/2 years ago i went full time. did things improve. well no for a start, not realy. We got ripped of by the builder who was supposed to build the new workshop, we had to chase him for the money back, and instead of machining barrels i was brick laying. Finaly got the workshop done and moved in in December 2008.
We got about 9 months of hassle free work and things where looking bright, when my Dad was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus. Dad cared for Mum ( Mum has alzheimers) so i did try and get back to East Yorkshire as much as i could, given the diagnosis. Dad had a stroke in December and unfortunately passed away in February this year. Mum is now well cared for in a home.

As you can imagine the last 5 years have been a right bitch.
But. Despite all the setbacks, Ive managed to produce a steady stream of high quality custom rifles, ( between 70 and 100 per year) Ive taken on 3 staff, and in the last 18months we've brought many new, own design products onto the market. including the RCS, Howa Mag systems, muzzle brakes and our own moderator. We exhibited at the 2009 and 2010 IWA. Of course, as for any retailer and riflesmith supply of parts is a real challenge ( you guys know how difficult the export from the USA has become i am sure) but we work hard to fill the gaps with our own designs. and I personaly think that we have achieved a hell of a lot when one considers the setbacks we've been dealt.
It would be great if prospective customers can see beyond the hard times in the past and give us a chance to prove what we can do.

Yours respectfully. Pete Lincoln

"and we're all entitled to a secound chance.."

It wasn't me! · 13-04-2010 1:29pm

roedale wrote: »

Hi fellas.
yes we had some problems in the past and I'm the first to admit that things didn't go to plan.
I started the riflesmithing business 5 years ago as a part time venture. At the time i was also working in mission control for the European Space Agency. The ESA job was 300miles away from home and workshop, which was fine for a start as we had 7 days on 7 days off.
Things went wrong at a point for a couple of reasons,
1. I was let down by mcmillan stocks on a delivery due to thier fullfilling a large millitary contract.
2. My then action supplier got seriously ill with cancer
3.My wife became ill
4. My ESA team was cut from 12 to 6 and days off from 7 to 3.

Something had to give. and it did. As Edi said, some of the "competition" and their lap dogs used the situation to good advantage and i got a shed load of bad press.

2 1/2 years ago i went full time. did things improve. well no for a start, not realy. We got ripped of by the builder who was supposed to build the new workshop, we had to chase him for the money back, and instead of machining barrels i was brick laying. Finaly got the workshop done and moved in in December 2008.
We got about 9 months of hassle free work and things where looking bright, when my Dad was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus. Dad cared for Mum ( Mum has alzheimers) so i did try and get back to East Yorkshire as much as i could, given the diagnosis. Dad had a stroke in December and unfortunately passed away in February this year. Mum is now well cared for in a home.

As you can imagine the last 5 years have been a right bitch.
But. Despite all the setbacks, Ive managed to produce a steady stream of high quality custom rifles, ( between 70 and 100 per year) Ive taken on 3 staff, and in the last 18months we've brought many new, own design products onto the market. including the RCS, Howa Mag systems, muzzle brakes and our own moderator. We exhibited at the 2009 and 2010 IWA. Of course, as for any retailer and riflesmith supply of parts is a real challenge ( you guys know how difficult the export from the USA has become i am sure) but we work hard to fill the gaps with our own designs. and I personaly think that we have achieved a hell of a lot when one considers the setbacks we've been dealt.
It would be great if prospective customers can see beyond the hard times in the past and give us a chance to prove what we can do.

Yours respectfully. Pete Lincoln

That sort of candour is rare. The very best of luck with your business.

Vegeta · 13-04-2010 2:21pm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The very best of luck with your business.

My sentiments exactly

shooter1968 · 14-04-2010 9:53am

Hello, I would like to comment my experience with Roedale Precision:

I entrusted a rifle to Pete in October, 2008, that is, 18 months ago. I paid in advance 100 % of its value, and a rifle full-custom is not precisely cheap.

Since then, Pete has gone narrating, in successive episodes, exactly the problems that are described in the forum.

I believe that waiting 18 months is too much: I think that one of 70 or 100 rifles that Pete finishes per year should have been mine!

On the other hand, I have references of other spanish shooters that have rifles from Roedale Precision, and they are all very pleased by the quality, which they consider exceptional.

Anyway, Pete has promised me that in one or two weeks I will have my rifle.

I hope that in one week it can tell in the forum first hand how Pete's rifles are. Really, after year and a half, I hope that it should be really wonderful.

roedale · 14-04-2010 1:46pm

I agree, 18 months is way too long. It is however around the average delivery time for a full custom, one of a kind build. some riflesmiths manage to do it quicker, (but perhaps don't have the volume, and certainly, hopefull none of the family issues and bad luck,previously mentioned) some take twice as long and charge twice as much, the customer pays his money and takes his choice, not nesseceraly in that order.
When a full custom rifle is given in commision, the choice of parts available are huge. Each and every part must be ordered individualy, or in thier component groups. Nothing can be held on shelf because it is impossible to know which parts the custom will want. This puts the riflesmith and customer at the mercy of suppliers and thats where the trouble starts.
Many component suppliers are small 1 or 2 man businesses, if a machine breaks or someone goes sick, the delivery time doubles over night. Other component suppliers are also suppliers to the military, and, as there is, believe it or not, actualy a real shooting war going on, the magnitude of which hasn't been seen since the Korean war, the military contracts always take priority, ( understandable, but also a right pain for civilian riflesmith and end customer all the same) then come the burocrats who like to throw spanners in the works, changes to export regulations, items bieng banned, items bieng put on the restricted list.
Other custom rifles are to be built on parts that dont even excist at the time of order, but are specialy designed and developed for a particular customer.
All these issues have an effect on the possible delivery time of a finnished custom rifle and can seriously stretch the waiting game.
This is the reason that custom riflesmiths do not give delivery dates on one of a kind commissions.
I have personaly waited, for example, 2 1/2 years for delivery of actions from the USA that should have been delivered in 6months, 12 months for stocks that should have been delieverd in 3 months, only to find that uppon arrival the stocks had been taken out of the mold too soon and where cracked and un usable.
It is a realy difficult job bieng a riflesmith in Europe, many of the parts come from the USA, yet we are treated as the poor cousin by the US suppliers, its not as if we can knock on the door and ask where our kit is, the home US market takes priority time and time and time again.
Customers often however compare the US prices on firearms and accessories, which are usualy much lower. Forget however that in many states there is no VAT to pay, then shipping from manufacturer to exporter costs money, the exporter takes his cut, then shipping to Europe costs money, Then we have the import taxes and VAT to add, and then some one has to travel to customs to pick items up. All that is un seen costs to the end customer.
Ive come to the conclusion that the only way to do it properly is limit the choice of available parts, manufacture as much your self or localy as is possible and rather than wait until a customer arrives with his wishes, actualy build a series or custom rifles to a very high specification and standard, that are available almost off the shelf, or at least in a limmited and garantied time frame.
When it comes to payment, the customer always has choices, those who chose to pay up front do so because they want to take advantage of the discount that is given. Usual for a one of a kind build is a 60% deposit, the rest when the job is done.
That can be done differently when a custom series is built, the advantage for the riflesmith is that all the rifles are very similar( apart from maybe individial touches like name engraving and finish) and parts can be held on shelf ready to go, he saves time by not having to chase 50 different suppliers and his payment is in far far sooner.
the advantage for the customer is that the rifle is ready much much sooner, he doesn't have to part with money for so long. he does however have a less of a choice on options.

Anyhow, I can't speak for the rest of the European riflesmiths, I can only give an insight into my experiences, but i know that they are the same experiences that most of us must endure.
I certainly absolutely am sympathetic to the waiting customers frustration, and certainly respect and value the trust that is put in me to do the job right, a custom rifle is a joint project between customer and riflesmith and would be much less hassle and stress if everything was available right now on shelf. That means a big ig warehouse and massive investment in parts though. Something that many are unwilling to commit to in the present market.
I know what i'm doing to combat the problems of delivery schedules and late deliveries from the USA and rather than see the problems as a problem i see them as an oppertunity and a challenge. This is providing jobs and business oppertunities for several companies within Germany, Eire and the UK rather than across the pond.

Thanks for reading. regards Pete

shooter1968 · 14-04-2010 7:24pm

Hi Pete,

I knew all of the above as you allready told me in one of your mails and, just as you understand my frustration, I understand your problems. I know first hand the difficulty of buying any accessory in USA, because I buy often there, and it is getting more and more difficult.

But, when I asked you for a delivery date you told me 6 months and according to it I took my decision to acquire a Full Custom. And, moreover, if after buying the rifle, if you had informed me about the difficulty of obtaining this one or that one part, and you had given me some alternative (I am not fanatical, I believe that there is more than one first class manufacturer for almost any thing), of course I would have accepted it without thinking twice.

Anyway, if I complain about something it is that there has not been a better communication. In this year and a half I believe that I have not harassed you with e-mails. I understand that it is necessary to allow the professionals to work, and not to make them lose the time writing. But, sometimes I think it is necessary that the professional gives explanations, offers alternatives and answers request (it has been one week since I sent to you a mail asking you to change the scope rings of 34 mm. for the 30 mm some. Answer???

Best regards,
JMT

jwshooter · 14-04-2010 7:31pm

cant see the point of you guys doing business on hear .

roedale · 14-04-2010 8:45pm

jwshooter, i agree with you about doing business on here.

however the ups and downs of trying to get a custom rifle project together with parts from all over the world will certainly interest some readers i expect, and there are some folk who like to play smoke and mirrors and voodoo in the custom rifle world but i'm happy to be open and honest about the trails and tribulations involved in such a project.
So if no one minds i'd like to answer shooter1968's points. And i must say, he has been a model customer, found the right guy for the job, and got out of the way whilst its bieng done.

6 months delivery date, here we have a typical example. the actual phrase was, if i can get the parts in in 3 months the rifle will take 6 months to build. On average a rifle takes x amount of time to gather in the parts, + 3 months build time. again, both builder and end customer are absolutely at the mercy of the component manufacturer, the particulars of the export regulations in the manufacturers country, the speed of the courier company and the efficiency of the customs in the country of the builder. It is impossible to say how long a build will take untill all parts required are actualy on shelf. But to say to a customer, I've absolutely no idea at all when this rifle build can be finnished, sounds somewhat semi professional, so the only way is to make no garuanties on delivery dates, but to say, once all the parts are in, I garuantee to have the rifle ready within 3 months.
naturaly illness, family issues, machine breakages can still stretch that, but as a rough guide 3 months is about the right time frame from all the parts arriving.

Does it take 3 months to assemble a rifle. No, it doesn't. but to work efficiently, cut down on machine set up time, a riflesmith will work in batches, Remingtons this week, Howa's next week, Tikka's next. etc.
If a particular build misses bieng slotted into a rolling schedule, it will be a month or 6 weeks before it gets into the next. then one must add in the trips to the range, each rifle is approximately 5 trips to the range, the range is 1 hours travel away ( oh how i wish i could shoot in the field behind the house) of course its not economical to travel with just 1 rifle, so a batch of rifles will be range tested and have barrels run in over perhps a space of 3 weeks, depending on the appointments that are available at the range. then one needs to add around a week for proof, then one more final test. and already we are at 10 weeks. add any load developement, or no bullets on shelf and easily very easily a rifle has taken 3 months to complete.

Difficulty in obtaining parts and alternative parts. In this particular case we are talking about a surgeon action. there is no alternative that is produced out side of the USA ( well at least there wasn't untill we started to manufacture our own action, which is a direct result of bieng let down by certain action manufacturers) hence to offer an alternative would have meant exactly the same amount of wait, but just for a different action. It would also have meant me buying 2 actions to fulfill 1 job. That may sound like a reasonable thing to do in one case, and indeed i have agreed with customers to order 2 actions from 2 manufacturers and to use the 1st one that comes for thier particular build, The problem is is that all the US manufacturers want payment up front, and if one does this for lets say 70 customers, you end up buying 140 actions to complete 70 jobs, it doesn't make economic sence.

Communication, yes absolutely agree with you, we aren't great on that front at all, but we are working on it. I simply dont have the time to write back to every single email or take every single phone call. Its been a struggle as i set out on my own on this, doing everything on my own.
taking on staff was the obviouse way to go, but what use is taking some one off the dole who hasn't a clue, or a teenager just out of school. The right staff had to be found. preferable ex military, preferably shooters and hunters. It took a while, but that worked out. Tom and Geoff are both ex Military, both hunters. of course they both had to be shown the ropes, which took time.
Ive though of a way to improve communication as to status on builds, we are setting up an online status check. Customers can log in to thier build, the notes that I must make to keep track of progress. e.g. action ordered, barrel fitted.. whatever can be seen by the customer, in fact with each update done by me, the customer gets an automated info email. Likewise the customer can add commenst e.g. please change rings from 34 to 30mm. all i have to do is type ok, and click update, This system is taking a little setting up, and its not possible time wise to put excisting orders in it,
but for future orders it will save me at least 1 1/2 working days in emails and phone calls every week. which means faster turn around, and i might even get to the Legion on a friday night occasionaly.

Anyhow. hope we aren't boring anyone, maybe we can give some folk an insight into the ins and outs like i said. personaly i hate to deliever a rifle later than expected, but often it just can't be helped.
Shooter1968, if we take the rest of the business side back to the email,

maybe other folk can comment on build times with other companies,

i would be interested to know what most folk consider a reasonable waiting time for a one of a kind custom rifle, for a series production custom rifle, and comments on what can be done, in general terms to make the whole experience nicer for customer and builder.

regards to all from the middle of Germanistan.

Pete

johngalway · 14-04-2010 8:56pm

Jesus Pete, you've posted more column inches here with 3 posts than other have with hundreds lol

6.5x55 · 14-04-2010 9:20pm

I have dealt with this company and I will set out my experience with dealing with them and you can make you own minds up

In May 06 I ordered a custom 6.5 from Roedale and was told 3-5months for completion ,I agreed on that basis and paid the not unsubstancial sum of 50% of agreed price .I then sat back and waited and waited ,waited .6 months passed , 12 months passed excuses,excuses,excuses,Parts ,Military contracts ect ,ect.
After 18months and more excuses I noticed on the orginal quote that the Barrel twist rate was not what we agreed ,I contacted Roedale and was told no problem Typo on their Behalf ,that the rifle would arrive with correct barrel and it was nearly ready,a further 6 months more excuses ,German Officials very slow with paper work,Couldn't get a courier to carry the rifle .It was finally delivered after I started asking questions about Roedale on an english rifle forum.I immeditately took it to my gun smith and had the barrell checked was the wrong twist rate .when I contacted Roedale it was insinuated that it was my problem when I produced the emails thay agreed it was their problem.

They requested I send the rifle back to Germany I refused and it was agreed that they would immediately replace the barrell and in lieu of paying the fitting costs would provide a free sound moderator(same cost)
it took another 13 months and 40-50 emails to finally get the new barrell delivered to Ireland .

If Roedale were the last riflesmiths on this earth i would never use them again.

Peter .I am still waiting from my sound Moderator promised 18 months ago!!!.

Caveat Emptor.

jwshooter · 14-04-2010 10:09pm

WTF , its not a trip to mars .its a rifle .rifle builders come out with some crap .

mine was 8 weeks getting done ,i know of the exact same job taking 8 months by another guy ,he came out with the same crap .

only take on the work you can do .to read your post your under pressure ,from all angles .no one wants that crap not you ,not your clients.

if i was a mod i would lock this thread as its going no where fast .

tommyboy26 · 14-04-2010 10:18pm

i stated this thread as i was cosidering buying from them but after reading all of this i think i would be better off spending my money elsewhere

tommy

Sparks · 14-04-2010 10:24pm

jwshooter wrote: »

if i was a mod i would lock this thread as its going no where fast .

Not how I see it, I see a gunsmith giving fairly candid insight into the why of the delays involved. Fair play to him, most seem to just ignore any and all criticism. Frankly, I prefer knowing it's listened to.

And if folks think that it's only this gunsmith that's got these problems, they're woefully misinformed.

jwshooter · 14-04-2010 10:43pm

Sparks wrote: »

Not how I see it, I see a gunsmith giving fairly candid insight into the why of the delays involved. Fair play to him, most seem to just ignore any and all criticism. Frankly, I prefer knowing it's listened to.

And if folks think that it's only this gunsmith that's got these problems, they're woefully misinformed.

i see car crash tv .

shooter1968 · 14-04-2010 10:46pm

I repeat: I have references of other spanish shooters that have rifles from Roedale Precision, and they are all very pleased by the quality, which they consider exceptional.

I want only to have my rifle and shooting with him, then everything will be forgotten. Pete has promised me that in one or two weeks I will have my rifle, and I believe Pete.

Greetings from Spain.

Sparks · 14-04-2010 10:56pm

jwshooter wrote: »

i see car crash tv .

So change the channel. It's not like we've superglued you to your seat, tied your hands, taped your eyes open and set your web browser to automatically refresh the page y'know.

patsat · 14-04-2010 11:12pm

I think that Roedale just needs to cut down on his load, or expand the business. you seem to be just run off your feet! half the workload with someone and get making the rifles!

ronboy · 14-04-2010 11:29pm

Sparks wrote: »

So change the channel. It's not like we've superglued you to your seat, tied your hands, taped your eyes open and set your web browser to automatically refresh the page y'know.

:D

jwshooter · 14-04-2010 11:34pm

Sparks wrote: »

So change the channel. It's not like we've superglued you to your seat, tied your hands, taped your eyes open and set your web browser to automatically refresh the page y'know.

you are getting worse ,if thats possible .

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ROEDALE PRECISION

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