'Grade inflation' in exam results investigation

Just hope my 1;1 doesn't get downgraded.

I don't think there's been any specific conspiracy in this country to increase grades over the last 30 years, it's just been a symptom of a growing economy and syllabi that can't cope.

The Leaving Cert in particular is a perfect example of a system that can be legally cheated. The non-analytical subjects, such as English and so forth have seen increases in grades because the entire exam can be learned off by rote and spat back onto a piece of paper. You can literally learn off the correct answers, word-for-word, without having ever performed the critical analysis yourself, and walk away with high marks.

It's in maths and science that this trend has been exposed - numbers and the quality of grades has collapsed in these subjects because you can't learn the answers off by rote. You can learn the *process* off by rote (in fact, this is ideal), but when it comes to sitting down and doing the exam, you must perform the analysis and calculations on the spot. And many people fall down in this because the entire education system, along with their parents, has pushed them to fill their minds with specific knowledge and ignore general processes.

The employers in question aren't complaining that the graduates are underqualified so much as the are lacking in common sense and general skills. And this is a symptom of promoting knowledge above analysis.
Somehow being able to recite 6 higher English poems from the top of your head has become important enough to get you more points than knowing how to do long division, but in the real world, it's the latter that's more valuable - maybe not the actual process itself of long division, but the *template* that it provides to allow people to analyse and adapt to changing situations.

DF, do you think you earned your degree, 2 masters and PhD? or were they handed to you? its very easy to say other people are not deserving of their qualifications but that you (through hard work) managed to get to the top. I do agree that there is grade inflation but saying things like 'but you can dumb down the syllabi' surely lessens the worth of your qualifications? Did people make it easier for you to pass?

rightwingdub wrote: »

Donegalfella, your right about higher maths the pre 1994 papers were a lot more difficult than the post 94 papers, I don't think I would have done higher level maths if the course hadn't been dumbed down in the mid 90's, also Isn't it government policy to try and get 25% of LC students to do the higher level maths paper but its =only about 18% at the moment.

I think this is the problem. The papers are made a little easier to try and encourage students to take the higher papers, however the problem isn't so much that the students think that maths is difficult, it's just not seen as somewhere that points can be easily attained. So students instead focus on the "by rote" subjects where a grade is easier to guarantee and do ordinary level maths purely to satisfy the requirement to pass it to complete the leaving.

I've always thought that while the CAO system was simple and transparent, that's also its downfall - it doesn't select students on the basis of their suitability for a course.
Someone could do three science subjects and 4 arts subjects at leaving cert level, barely scraping through the science subjects and still getting into a course teaching a scientific discipline. But the guy who get B1s in science subjects and fails Irish won't get into a science course for which he is amply capable.

I would favour moving towards a system where colleges can specify the minimum requirements (in terms of subjects and grades) for each course and applicants then fill out their application form on the basis of which subjects they are studying at LC level. Scrap any "minimum pass" requirements. Who cares if a student has failed Irish or English and wants to be an engineer?

As regards Maths, people may be interested in the new government Project Maths scheme, which is working towards a new curriculum asfaik. There was a thread in the Maths forum about it, and a link was given to a sample paper of what could be the new exam (pdf). From what I gather they are proposing the removal of matrices and vectors, which is nothing less than insanity. A lot of people over in the Maths forum felt that the paper certainly was "dumbing down" the LC.

People may also be aware that the Department of Education introduced new log tables this year. These log tables contain literally every formula on the course, from the root of quadratics to sum of series. I don't think you can argue with the fact that these new log tables make it easier.

When I was told about them the person telling me said that perhaps the Department would now be able to make the questions harder. But this isn't going to happen. What the Department is interested in is looking good on paper, and even if that involves creating a generation of substandard mathematicians its seems like it will still happen.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

People may also be aware that the Department of Education introduced new log tables this year. These log tables contain literally every formula on the course, from the root of quadratics to sum of series. I don't think you can argue with the fact that these new log tables make it easier.

I haven't seen these so sorry if I'm way off but on the one hand people complain that students are rote learning and on the other when they are given material and tested in their application of said materials people also complain. I don't think you can argue with the fact that these new log tables the internet makes life easier and there may be little need, unless you want to be a mathematician to learn off formulae. In the digital age people seldom have to remember a formula or poem when it can be googled. Times are changing.

Valmont wrote: »

With all of this grade inflation business I hope that it will reveal the need for more private third level institutes who aren't overly influenced by the government.

To be fair, the market isn't so perfect as to differentiate the quality of these institutions either. I've heard a few people going to some private colleges and they claim you basically only have to pay your fees and show up to get a nice grade.

entropic wrote: »

They are absolutely insane, I recently went into a shop because I needed a set of them as an easy reference for some trig identities and a couple of other things that repeat in my Physics course and I stood there for about 20 minutes just gob smacked. They give enough information to pass the LC Maths, Physics and Chemistry exams at honors level. When I brought them into one of my classes to show others we spent the entire lecture in shock even our professor said he is not looking forward to future students coming through because he knows they will know an awful lot less because of them.

On the inflation of college degrees, I think it is fairly obvious that it has become increasingly easier to get 1.1's. In UL a lot of your degree is determined by your Final Year Project which is supposed to be an independently studied topic or theory, at the moment students are spoon fed the information they need and there are a few people I know that have basically had their supervisors do it for them.

Then there is I grades, which are grades awarded if you have missed an exam or an extended period of time due to illness or bereavement. In this case you sit the repeat exams but they are uncapped. They have become so easy to get it is ridiculous. One person in my course got a doctors cert for basically a flu and although I'd say she missed maybe 1 week because of this illness was able to break up her exams into two sets where she did 3 before Christmas and will do 3 during the repeats. There is no way that she deserved the I grades but still got them because she knew how to play the system. Come exam time for the second semester I will no doubt again come across friends who have missed time due to inebriation who will get the grade because they know all they have to do is talk to the Councillor and the welfare officer.

Yep, totally agree, I just posted about this over on the Leaving Cert forum

Myself and my brother both went to UL. He graduated in 2005 with a pass degree (he didn't work very hard) in Environmental Science. His girlfriend did the same degree but was a year behind him. His average was pulled down in second year because he failed his chemistry exams. He was horrified to find the modules he failed (and subsequently repeated) were dropped from his girlfriends degree because they were now deemed unnecessary/too difficult/whatever spurious reason was given at the time. His thinking was that he got a pass degree but did more chemistry(which is necessary for the type of work he was hoping to be employed in), and plenty of people coming behind him got honours degrees because the difficult modules were removed from the course, but came out with less knowledge, but at first glance his qualification doesn't look as good.

I see it now with the course I did. I did 6 modules per term when I was there (graduated in 2000), the prospectus now shows the course outline where there is only 5 modules per term. So less work is being done for the same qualification.


Minimum Leaving Cert standard for entering a science program was an honour in Maths and a pass in Science or an honour in Science and a pass in maths. That's changed to an ordinary level C3 in science/maths. Now I know the reality is that students who are taking science at ordinary level are not as likely to go on to do a science degree/get the points for said degree. But seriously, how can they accept an ordinary level C3 as a minimum requirement, I have students in leaving cert who will get an ordinary C3 in biology/chemistry/ag science (my main subjects) who can barely spell the word science let alone complete a third level course in the area.

I correct leaving cert papers in the summer and if the breakdown of grades isn't falling the way the dept want it, the marking scheme is changed and we re-mark the papers. Effectively this reduces the failure rate and students pass exams that they don't really deserve to pass.

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