The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

Johro · 04-02-2010 3:21pm #1

French authorities are considering banning the wearing of the Burka (or Burqa) by Muslim women resident in France. Other countries are having a similar debate. What do you think about it? Personally, I think it's a bad move for several reasons. One reason is that the women who actually wear it in France number around two thousand, hardly a great number in such a huge population. Secondly, the government says it's in the name of 'women's lib'. Excuse me while I laugh uncontrollably... Okay I'm done. It never worried them before. The other reason they give is that in french society, or european society for that matter, social interaction demands visibility, basically, you want to be able to see the face of the person you're talking to.
That seems a little more reasonable, although in that case shouldn't we be banning the wearing of hoodies/baseball hat ensembles?
Thirdly, banning the Burka would have a negative effect simply because banning something altogether will make people want it more. Simple fact. It wouldn't surprise me to see the number of women wearing it actually increase after a ban.
Another thing that makes me feel uneasy about the whole thing is that I wonder how much it has to do with the anti-Islamic feeling around.. Like, is it 'veil hatred' or is it 'veiled hatred'? I'm not sure.
I've got to say I consider women having to wear veils in public oppressive and wrong. One of those laws devised by men to keep women down and stop other men from ogling their women, coz, interestingly, the Koran doesn't say women should cover their face. Having said that, when Muslim women in France were interviewed they said they wanted to wear the Burka and they considered it their right. Can't really argue with that. Unless you want to strip nuns of their habits too.

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 3:26pm

Yes it should be banned.

From a security point of view especially in airports, public places, sensitive security buildings

What has the wearer to hide, they are in a western socirty and should respect that society and its customs.

I lived in London for many years and think the English were very tolerant people to put up with people wearing burkas especially after 7/7 terrorist bombings on the Tube and Bus system in London

anymore · 04-02-2010 3:35pm

I had my first full body pat down in a German airport recently. I cant say i enjoyed the intrusion or the experience, but i understand that is part of the price we must pay for being safe from being blown up in the air by extreme Islamic militants. If I can disregard my own ' human rights' for a greater good, then I am reluctant to see why ii should argue that the Burqa should be allowed on ' human rights' grounds.
Yes ban it in Public places.

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 3:40pm

You could also have another take on this as a Westerner living in a western society should I respect Muslim faith and belief and customs, ie

Should I remove my shoes before entering a Mosque
Should I offer to shake hands with Muslim women
Should I walk over a prayer mat
Should I ignore an Imaam of the local Mosque if entering
Should I raise complaint on noise pollution for 5 times a day pray time
Should I ignore the significant datres in the Muslim calendar

Johro · 04-02-2010 3:41pm

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Yes it should be banned.

From a security point of view especially in airports, public places, sensitive security buildings

What has the wearer to hide, they are in a western socirty and should respect that society and its customs.

I lived in London for many years and think the English were very tolerant people to put up with people wearing burkas especially after 7/7 terrorist bombings on the Tube and Bus system in London

I see your point, just would like to get away from the idea that everyone wearing a burka is a potential terrorist.

Laminations · 04-02-2010 3:43pm

I agree with a ban in public places. When cultural values clash, the values of the indigenous culture must be respected. Likewise I wouldn't expect to be able to walk around an Islamic country in swimwear basking in their good weather, I'd have respect for their culture (and laws)

celticbest · 04-02-2010 3:45pm

Yes, without a doubt it should be banned, both on security grounds and secondly why should we have to look at a set of eyeballs walking down the street.

On security grounds, how do you know if it's a man or a woman wearing it & what is hidden under it.

If my wife and I go to a Muslim country more often than not she has to be covered up. If we have to respect there customs they should respect ours after all we didn't invite them into this country they came here because they choose too. If they want to keep wearing a Burka then go to a muslim country were it is the norm.

I have no issue with muslims or people of other religions living here once they respect our culture.

Johro · 04-02-2010 3:46pm

blueeyedboy wrote: »

You could also have another take on this as a Westerner living in a western society should I respect Muslim faith and belief and customs, ie

Should I remove my shoes before entering a Mosque
Should I offer to shake hands with Muslim women
Should I walk over a prayer mat
Should I ignore an Imaam of the local Mosque if entering
Should I raise complaint on noise pollution for 5 times a day pray time
Should I ignore the significant datres in the Muslim calendar

Respectively, yes-no-no-no-no-yes, coz you're not a Muslim. The others are just about respecting another's religion. Should I spit on the Pope? Probably not.

ei.sdraob · 04-02-2010 3:51pm

yes allow it ...

... once miniskirts are allowed in middle east

Sleepy · 04-02-2010 3:52pm

Religious beliefs have no place in law. If the beliefs of a religion happen to coincide with the law (e.g. murder being a sin in religion and illegal in law) that's fine but something simply being a religious belief should have no impact on whether it's the law of the land or not. AFAIC, religion's don't merit being regarded or supported in any way by any facet of the law (especially with regard to taxation).

As such, I'd rather see a law passed regarding the covering of one's facial features with anything other than necessary safety equipment (e.g. welder's mask / motorcycle helmet) whilst in a public face rather than a law regarding a hibab or a particular object of any other religion.

anymore · 04-02-2010 3:53pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes allow it ...

... once miniskirts are allowed in middle east

I think women can wear whatever they like under the burqua !:D

anymore · 04-02-2010 3:55pm

On a slightly related subject, did not some politicians suggest ' Hoodies' be banned in shopping centres in the last year or so ?
Should have googled first !

" One politician called for hoodies to be banned seeming them not as a typically gormless teenage fashion item but rather as part of some kind of starter kit for gangland crime. Others use exaggerated language like “the scourge of teenage criminals”. "

http://www.politics.ie/youth-politics/11587-young-people-must-heard-andrews.html

Johro · 04-02-2010 3:57pm

celticbest wrote: »

Yes, without a doubt it should be banned, both on security grounds and secondly why should we have to look at a set of eyeballs walking down the street.

On security grounds, how do you know if it's a man or a woman wearing it & what is hidden under it.

If my wife and I go to a Muslim country more often than not she has to be covered up. If we have to respect there customs they should respect ours after all we didn't invite them into this country they came here because they choose too. If they want to keep wearing a Burka then go to a muslim country were it is the norm.

I have no issue with muslims or people of other religions living here once they respect our culture.

Just a point, if you took your wife to an Islamic country she would not have to wear a Burka coz she's not a Muslim.
She'd get stared at if she wore hotpants and a bellytop walking down the road but no more so than she would here.

fontanalis · 04-02-2010 4:00pm

To me it's a symbol of sexual repression and treating women as property, but banning it will only cause trouble as there are some women who are mentally ill that wear it of their own accord.

Sleepy · 04-02-2010 4:01pm

It'd be a foolishly brave woman who wore that sort of outfit in an Islamic country Johro.

Johro · 04-02-2010 4:01pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Religious beliefs have no place in law. If the beliefs of a religion happen to coincide with the law (e.g. murder being a sin in religion and illegal in law) that's fine but something simply being a religious belief should have no impact on whether it's the law of the land or not. AFAIC, religion's don't merit being regarded or supported in any way by any facet of the law (especially with regard to taxation).

As such, I'd rather see a law passed regarding the covering of one's facial features with anything other than necessary safety equipment (e.g. welder's mask / motorcycle helmet) whilst in a public face rather than a law regarding a hibab or a particular object of any other religion.

Try walking into a post office wearing a bike helmet though:D

bullpost · 04-02-2010 4:02pm

I'd agree with this and don't see why they didn't do it this way as it would effect the same goal without alienating muslims. Also the proposed law may allows the introduction of a garment which is not a burqa but does the same job i.e. cover someone from head to toe.

Sleepy wrote: »

Religious beliefs have no place in law. If the beliefs of a religion happen to coincide with the law (e.g. murder being a sin in religion and illegal in law) that's fine but something simply being a religious belief should have no impact on whether it's the law of the land or not. AFAIC, religion's don't merit being regarded or supported in any way by any facet of the law (especially with regard to taxation).

As such, I'd rather see a law passed regarding the covering of one's facial features with anything other than necessary safety equipment (e.g. welder's mask / motorcycle helmet) whilst in a public face rather than a law regarding a hibab or a particular object of any other religion.

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 4:02pm

Johro wrote: »

I see your point, just would like to get away from the idea that everyone wearing a burka is a potential terrorist.

But unfortunately they are in the security services eyes.
Look at MI5 in UK and the way they target the Muslim community their.

Being a Muslim in 2010 is a high risk from a security point of view whether we like it or not.

I am all for Human Rights but for piece of mind I would like the Hijab and Burka banned in all public places.

They can wear whatever they like in their own homes

celticbest · 04-02-2010 4:04pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes allow it ...

... once miniskirts are allowed in middle east

anymore wrote: »

I think women can wear whatever they like under the burqua !:D

Johro wrote: »

Just a point, if you took your wife to an Islamic country she would not have to wear a Burka coz she's not a Muslim.
She'd get stared at if she wore hotpants and a bellytop walking down the road but no more so than she would here.

I didn't say she'd needs to wear a Burka but she would have to cover her arms and legs......... though maybe she should wear a burka with a nice mini on underneath it !!;)

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 4:04pm

Laminations wrote: »

I agree with a ban in public places. When cultural values clash, the values of the indigenous culture must be respected. Likewise I wouldn't expect to be able to walk around an Islamic country in swimwear basking in their good weather, I'd have respect for their culture (and laws)

Or even a Mankini like Borat,:D

bonkey · 04-02-2010 4:05pm

celticbest wrote: »

Yes, without a doubt it should be banned, both on security grounds .

The "security" argument is a complete canard.

Consider the following...I could be carrying a weapon under my clothing. Is the solution to this to ban all clothing, everywhere? Strangely enough, most people don't believe that it is....but when it comes to something like the burqa, the same logic apparently doesn't hold.

Taking air travel as just one case in point...I don't know if Irish airports have implemented the policy, but in many European airports that I've been through, they have both male and female security present, so that if a pat-down is required, it is carried out by someone of the same gender. In some airports, any such activity is already carried on behind screens, so that the person being checked is not subject to any public scrutiny.

Time and time again, we've found solutions to balance problems of privacy and personal rights with security concerns. But when it comes to the burqa...again, some people would have us believe that the only solution is an outright ban.

And you know what....if its ultimately judged that we can'cater for some of the underlying concerns...then the solution is to ban anyone from air-travel who will not comply with reasonable security precautions, which take dignity, privacy and other concerns into consideration.

and secondly why should we have to look at a set of eyeballs walking down the street

I don't like yoofs wearing hoodies, nor do a lot of people. Is that sufficient grounds to ban hoodies? Why should we have to look at these hooded characters walking down the street?

Many of the older generation don't like miniskirts. They find them indecent. Is that a sufficient ground to ban them?

bonkey · 04-02-2010 4:07pm

Laminations wrote: »

I agree with a ban in public places. When cultural values clash, the values of the indigenous culture must be respected.

What cultural value of ours is being clashed with?

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 4:10pm

bonkey wrote: »

The "security" argument is a complete canard.

Consider the following...I could be carrying a weapon under my clothing. Is the solution to this to ban all clothing, everywhere? Strangely enough, most people don't believe that it is....but when it comes to something like the burqa, the same logic apparently doesn't hold.

Taking air travel as just one case in point...I don't know if Irish airports have implemented the policy, but in many European airports that I've been through, they have both male and female security present, so that if a pat-down is required, it is carried out by someone of the same gender. In some airports, any such activity is already carried on behind screens, so that the person being checked is not subject to any public scrutiny.

Time and time again, we've found solutions to balance problems of privacy and personal rights with security concerns. But when it comes to the burqa...again, some people would have us believe that the only solution is an outright ban.

And you know what....if its ultimately judged that we can'cater for some of the underlying concerns...then the solution is to ban anyone from air-travel who will not comply with reasonable security precautions, which take dignity, privacy and other concerns into consideration.

I don't like yoofs wearing hoodies, nor do a lot of people. Is that sufficient grounds to ban hoodies? Why should we have to look at these hooded characters walking down the street?

Many of the older generation don't like miniskirts. They find them indecent. Is that a sufficient ground to ban them?

Look its also about respect for the host nation.
By wearing the Burka or Hijab in a Western country they are giving the 2 fingers to that society.

Do you think I would be able to wear whatever I liked in an Arab country, eh I dont think so. No but I respect the host countires customs and values.

Muslims live a different life to us Western countries and they either assimilate or they can return to their own Burka wearing countries....

Thats it simple...............;)

Kent Brockman · 04-02-2010 4:11pm

I have worked in Muslim countries and many of our guys brought their wives or Gfs over as we were there over a 3 year period. The Gfs had to pretend they were wives.
The women had to cover up- long sleeves and ground length skirts and had to have their hair tied up if they left the compound.
My wife and several others were hissed at and spat upon while out to the shops one day (we assumed because they were not dressed accordingly).

As they say "When in Rome......" (lets take a vote:D)

On a semi-related note what about traditional head gear on men. Wasn't there some issues with the police in England and some kid expecting to play soccer wearing a Turban:rolleyes:

Laminations · 04-02-2010 4:11pm

fontanalis wrote: »

there are some women who are mentally ill that wear it of their own accord.

A bit insulting?
I agree there are some women who want to wear it. My problem with this is that their decision is usually underpinned by beliefs that are insulting to males - as in they believe we would objectify them otherwise.

kravmaga · 04-02-2010 4:14pm

bonkey wrote: »

What cultural value of ours is being clashed with?

What Laminations means is we in western society are not brought up to wear Burkas.

Muslim society values VS Western society values

Laminations · 04-02-2010 4:15pm

bonkey wrote: »

What cultural value of ours is being clashed with?

Well it appears the majority of those who have posted on here hold the idea of face-to-face interaction in public as a value they do not want to compromise. What value would wearing a minskirt in Iran clash with?

celticbest · 04-02-2010 4:16pm

bonkey wrote: »

I don't like yoofs wearing hoodies, nor do a lot of people. Is that sufficient grounds to ban hoodies? Why should we have to look at these hooded characters walking down the street?

Many of the older generation don't like miniskirts. They find them indecent. Is that a sufficient ground to ban them?

I wouldn't be to keen on them myself, but it's up to the Gardai to stop and search somebody who looks suspicious wearing one. I'd say you are far more likely to be stopped wearing a hoodie with the hood up then if you were wearing a normal jacket.

Laminations · 04-02-2010 4:18pm

bonkey wrote: »

The "security" argument is a complete canard.

Consider the following...I could be carrying a weapon under my clothing. Is the solution to this to ban all clothing, everywhere? Strangely enough, most people don't believe that it is....but when it comes to something like the burqa, the same logic apparently doesn't hold.

The argument isn't simply about concealment of weapons, its about concealment of identity in PUBLIC places.

anymore · 04-02-2010 4:21pm

bonkey wrote: »

The "security" argument is a complete canard.

Consider the following...I could be carrying a weapon under my clothing. Is the solution to this to ban all clothing, everywhere? Strangely enough, most people don't believe that it is....but when it comes to something like the burqa, the same logic apparently doesn't hold.

Taking air travel as just one case in point...I don't know if Irish airports have implemented the policy, but in many European airports that I've been through, they have both male and female security present, so that if a pat-down is required, it is carried out by someone of the same gender. In some airports, any such activity is already carried on behind screens, so that the person being checked is not subject to any public scrutiny.

Time and time again, we've found solutions to balance problems of privacy and personal rights with security concerns. But when it comes to the burqa...again, some people would have us believe that the only solution is an outright ban.

And you know what....if its ultimately judged that we can'cater for some of the underlying concerns...then the solution is to ban anyone from air-travel who will not comply with reasonable security precautions, which take dignity, privacy and other concerns into consideration.

I don't like yoofs wearing hoodies, nor do a lot of people. Is that sufficient grounds to ban hoodies? Why should we have to look at these hooded characters walking down the street?

Many of the older generation don't like miniskirts. They find them indecent. Is that a sufficient ground to ban them?

I qualify as being of the older generation and mini skirts were first introduced when we were kids ! I generally find them more sexy than indecent.
Hoods on garments of one kind or another are also traditional. You can see a persin's face so they are not directly comparable to the burqa.

How do you suggest we balance the right of someone to engage in public discourse or commerce with the right of any other party to that discourse or commerce to be able to identify the person with whom they have to engage with.

Re Airport patdowns, I dont find it a consolation that the person patting me down is the same gender as myself !

The security issue is not a 'canard' - if a security person cant even say whether an individual is male or female, how can it be ?

bonkey · 04-02-2010 4:21pm

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Look its also about respect for the host nation.

The point I was making is that the "its about security" argument is badly flawed. I take it that despite your use of the word "also" here, you're tacitly accepting that the security argument doesn't hold water.

By wearing the Burka or Hijab in a Western country they are giving the 2 fingers to that society.

How? What established cultural value of our western society is being given two fingers? The cultural value which says that as long as laws of decency aren't violated, you can wear what you like, regardless of whether others approve of it or not?

No...wait...thats a cultural value that you are suggesting we abandon, not one we protect.

Do you think I would be able to wear whatever I liked in an Arab country, eh I dont think so. No but I respect the host countires customs and values.

Western society has a custom and value of tolerance.

Want to walk down the main street in a gorilla costume? People might look at you funny, but you're not breaking any law, so you're allowed to do it.

Want to wear a hoody, baseball cap pulled down, dark shades, and a PLO scarf covering the lower half od your face? Again...not breaking any laws...off with you.

Want to wear a short, short miniskirt and cropped top (regardless of your gender), even though its -5 outside? Again...you're free to do so.

So tell me....seriously....given that there's a well-established cultural value of personal freedom that you want us to abandon...what more important cultural value are you protecting on my behalf, by asking me to support you in riding rough-shod over one I consider to be rather important?

The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

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