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Lisbon II - The A&A Thread

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  • 02-09-2009 2:19pm
    #1
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Well, given that the second referendum is one month from today, this seems like a fitting time to open the floor to A&A to air their views on the matters at hand. :)

    The old Lisbon Thread was a feisty affair, and I don't doubt this will be any different.

    So who have changed their views since last time? Who's even more determined to thwart the politicos?

    Speak your minds, but keep your heads!

    How are you going to vote in Lisbon II? 148 votes

    Yes
    0%
    No
    77%
    mewsoGamblersixpack's little hatPHBBlitzKriegZombrexoscarBravothe_sycopHStarklaykeBeruthielDapperGentWackerwilliambZillahCarpovibe666SeiferGregor Samsa 115 votes
    Not going to vote
    22%
    Xcom2tuxyPompey MagnusdlofnepVordaciRbOtaconAlRocksObninumacdShooterSFGhostInTheRuinsAdamisconfusedDr. Baltargoingpostalrobby^5SVAssaultedPeanutKev_ps3patrickthomas 33 votes


«134567

Comments

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    #2
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    No
    I'm voting yes just to piss off coir!


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    #3
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    No
    Still a yes from me.

    Coir have made a strong start to the campaign, some rather fetching and eyecatching posters. All lies of course though.


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    #4
    starchild27
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭starchild27


    No
    Didnt vote last time as it was a foregone conclusion. Feeling more hopeful this time. Its a yes vote from me


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    #5
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Not going to vote
    Still voting No and am saddened that there is another forum I can't escape Lisbon in now. :pac:


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    #6
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Which way is Jesus voting, cos I'm I'm going to vote the opposite.

    Err, whats the link between athiesm and lisbon. Other than the CC says vote yes ?


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    #7
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    No
    I voted No the first time round.
    However, there were a few issues I was not aware of (I blame the Yes campaigners inability to campaign properly) that I was not aware of which may have persuaded me otherwise.

    This time I'm thinking of switching to Yes, because all I am seeing at the moment is blatant lies coming from the No camp (Choir/Youth Defense I'm looking at you). €1.84 minimum wage if we vote Yes? I've never heard sucha crock of BS.


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    #8
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    No
    Well, I've read the Treaty (has anybody else?) and I'm happy that it's a respectable and decent document. The No-side, in contrast, has descended immediately into a campaign consisting entirely of false-muck-raking and creationist-level shite.

    So I'm voting Yes.


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    #9
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    won't be voting... apathy ftw


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    #10
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    No
    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Err, whats the link between athiesm and lisbon. Other than the CC says vote yes ?
    Atheists are Europeans too!


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    #11
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    No
    Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote yes because Coir is calling for no.

    However, I do. The main reason is that I'm very much pro-EU and the treaty will make the EU more effective.

    The influence of the secular and liberal EU is most welcome, from an A&A viewpoint.

    More generally speaking, I think the vetoes have to go. It is insane that Malta could veto the wishes of the rest of the union. I can also envisage that a situation where, say, Ireland, Malta and Poland might veto something the rest agreed on because of Catholic influence.

    Some people say the vetos are critical to our sovereignty, and they might be right, but I don't think that living in a totally sovereign nation-state is preferable to living in a democratic collective of mostly-sovereign nation-states. We tried that and it got us virtually nowhere.

    Long story short, I'll accept good government wherever I can get it, and the EU has proven itself to me to be a better role model than the Irish state (As of today I'm a criminal for owning a small collection of replica Katanas- for example).


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    #12
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    No
    I'll be voting Yes... Haven't read the treaty, but have read enough about it to have an idea of what it's about. Seems completely benign to me, simply structural changes in the EU. Nothing to be concerned about.

    Was disgusted by the last campaign/debate, so will be doing my best to avoid it this time (no listening to radio debates, no watching Questions and Answers (hey that's gone actually!)), cast my vote, and hope for the best.
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    (As of today I'm a criminal for owning a small collection of replica Katanas- for example).

    *calls Gardaí*


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    #13
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    No
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    ....Some people say the vetos are critical to our sovereignty, and they might be right, but I don't think that living in a totally sovereign nation-state is preferable to living in a democratic collective of mostly-sovereign nation-states. We tried that and it got us virtually nowhere....

    Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.


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    #14
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    No
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.

    Some people consider the move from unanimity to QMV in some areas to be loss of sovereignty. It doesn't bother me, I think QMV is more democratic and in the areas where QMV currently applies, unanimity is the norm anyway. Everyone's perspective is still considered and negotiated before any decision is made

    Any chance of a poll?


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    #15
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    No
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Any chance of a poll?
    Good idea. Just added a simple (public) poll.


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    #16
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Not going to vote
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote yes because Coir is calling for no.
    According to a report in this week's issue of The Irish Catholic the Irish Bishops' Conference (IBC) will come out later this month in favour of the Lisbon Treaty.

    This comes after the Brussels-based Commission of the Episcopal Conferences of the European Communities (COMECE), the Catholic Church's representative body in the EU, gave a cautious welcome to the Reform Treaty.

    Dublin's Archbishop Diarmuid Martin is Vice-President of COMECE

    Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote no because the Church is calling for yes.


    :p


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    #17
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    No
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Could you elaborate more on how we might lose sovereignty? Losing sovereignty is a worrying prospect.

    Where's Scofflaw when you need him?

    Anyway, I think the possibility of having our votes over-ridden at EU level counts as a loss of some sovereignty, but it isn't being stripped, it is being pooled, and it has been and will only be pooled if we vote to do so.

    Under Lisbon, if we decide that we don't like the pooling that we voted for, we can always withdraw from the union.

    I'm certain that we will decide it is a good thing, however. QMV works both ways.


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    #18
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    No
    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Even if I had no opinion, I'd vote no because the Church is calling for yes.


    :p

    The Church is not Coir. Although the Church is the bigger evil, it is only so because it is bigger. ;)


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    #19
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Not going to vote
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    The Church is not Coir. Although the Church is the bigger evil, it is only so because it is bigger. ;)

    Not really the place for it but I disagree. Coir are idiotic lunatics. The Church (And by which I mean those in power) are a much more subtle sinister group and are as such infinitely more dangerous, which considering their evil actions in the past makes me fear them more than Coir.
    Anywho.


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    #20
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    No
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Where's Scofflaw when you need him?
    Hopefully in The Duke this Friday!
    Besides, I'd say he has his hands full in Politics without dealing with Lisbon splinter threads...


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    #21
    fitz0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    No
    I think I'll vote Yes this time around, after a rather ill-informed No last time around. But as much as I realise Lisbon is a step forward I'm still a bit annoyed at the second referendum. I'll just not tell my family, they seem to be set to vote No despite what anyone tells them.


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    #22
    Muppet Man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭Muppet Man


    No
    No last time, yes this time. I'd be inclined to believe Michael O'Leary before any of the no campaigners. If he says "Yes", then thats good enough for me.

    Muppet Man.


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    #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    No
    fitz0 wrote: »
    I think I'll vote Yes this time around, after a rather ill-informed No last time around...I'll just not tell my family, they seem to be set to vote No despite what anyone tells them.
    Unlike the census, with a referendum, mammy can't fill in the answers for people!


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    #24
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    No
    Dades wrote: »
    Unlike the census, with a referendum, mammy can't fill in the answers for people!

    Democracy 1 - 0 Mammy


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    #25
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    No
    As Galva said, I'll put my hands up and admit that I voted No last time however as Galva also said, I put that down to the Yes campaign's inability to sell their argument. I have to say that again, I think the Yes campaign is failing to impress. All I am seeing are half assed posters saying "Vote Yes to save the economy!" and "We belong!" On the other hand the No campaign have put up posters that could strike fear into a lot of people such as "Germany's say - 17%, Ireland's say - 0.8%". Now that is most likely scaremongering and taken out of context, but all the same they are effective tactics. Spin and underhanded maybe, but effective all the same.

    I plan on reading the actual treaty, but right now I am leaning towards voting yes.


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    #26
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    coir is not a valid reason to vote yes, instead of being distracted by coir, aided by the media and yes side scaremongering about them rather then having a true debate, lets see what our vips are talking about

    before the first ref after talking with ahern barroso has promised that ireland won't be taken to court over trying to keep the option of choosing the ethos of teachers etc in schools.

    will passing lisbon help us get a proper education system?


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    #27
    Halla Basin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭Halla Basin


    No
    What does Coir stand to gain from a No Vote?


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    #28
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    No
    I know it's early days yet but it's interesting to see the marked difference in the results of this poll compared to others. 87% yes, I knew you guys wouldn't let me down :D

    Except you shooterSF. You go stand in the corner :pac:


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    #29
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Not going to vote
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I know it's early days yet but it's interesting to see the marked difference in the results of this poll compared to others. 87% yes, I knew you guys wouldn't let me down :D

    Except you shooterSF. You go stand in the corner :pac:

    obviously that's because atheists don't have a moral compass (except me) :D


    (My tongue is well planted in my cheek today)


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    #30
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    No
    It's obviously another yes from me. I find it interesting that A&A leans so staggeringly towards Yes side camp. Maybe Atheist & Agnostics have a better bull**** filter then the general population.


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    #31
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    No
    Now that's curious.

    23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

    I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.


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