[Yusuf Mirza]

I am an Irish convert to Islam living in Galway.

I am a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. We are Muslims who believe that Jesus survived the cross and continued his mission to preach to the 12 tribes of the house of Israel, 10 of whom had been resettled as far away as modern day Afghanistan during the rain or Nebekaneser 500 years earlier.

Furthermore we believe that as Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet and Islam the last Law that the Messiah will come from among the Muslims. He will be someone with Jesus's characteristics who will claim to be the Messiah.

That person was Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We are in 198 countries with over 200 million believers and growing with our own channel
"MTA International" on Shy channel 787.


I would love to hear from anyone who would like to hear the message. Not interested in abuse or ridicule.

The view expressed on this thread are not necessarily the views of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat.


Wasalam
Yusuf

[seamus]

Moved from Helpdesk.

[wes]

Welcome to the board.

I don't know much about the Ahmadi Muslims, I know the general history of the faith coming out of Brisith occupied India.

[philologos]

This isn't consistent with what is prophesied in the Bible. Mind you many Muslims consider the Bible to be in grave error and suggest that the Injeel is in existence. The Injeel being the true Gospel, not the "corrupted" one that we use. I find it interesting, but the authenticity of the Bible has been debated by many including atheists, agnostics, and so on, and it still stands as a reputable text.

[AbuBakr]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

I am an Irish convert to Islam living in Galway.

I am a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. We are Muslims who believe that Jesus survived the cross and continued his mission to preach to the 12 tribes of the house of Israel, 10 of whom had been resettled as far away as modern day Afghanistan during the rain or Nebekaneser 500 years earlier.

Furthermore we believe that as Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet and Islam the last Law that the Messiah will come from among the Muslims. He will be someone with Jesus's characteristics who will claim to be the Messiah.

That person was Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We are in 198 countries with over 200 million believers and growing with our own channel
"MTA International" on Shy channel 787.


I would love to hear from anyone who would like to hear the message. Not interested in abuse or ridicule.

Salams, brother Yusuf. It's good to see a new member of the Islam forum, and I see that you are an Irish revert to Islam. Of course, in Pakistan, as an Ahmadiyya, you'd be imprisoned for calling yourself a Muslim, but, insha'Allah, we are more open-minded in Ireland.

[Yusuf Mirza]

Well Jackass I prefer to show from the Qur'an my beliefs but from the bible it is quite evident that Jesus did not die. Here are some points;

*It is mentioned in Deuteronomy that "any Prophet that dieth on a stake is false and accursed from god"

*Jesus said that "This is an evil and adulterous generation. No sign shall be shown to this generation except the sign of Jonah, for as he spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale so shall the son of man spend 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth"
Now we know that Johan was a Prophet and his people rejected him. He was swallowed up by a whale and remained alive in it for 3 days. Then he came out alive on a foreign shore and a new people accepted his message. If Jesus died and was resurrected then this would be inconsistent with the sign of Jonah. Moreover this if what happened and Jesus was taken down alive, revived and went to the other tribes of Israel and they accepted his message.

*In the Garden of Getsemeny Jesus prayed all night to where blood came from his forehead. An angel appeared to him and "reassured him". What did the angel say "oh Jesus stop praying for you will surly die"? Is this reassurance? Then on the cross Jesus said "My God, my God why have you forsaken me" Now if he was told he would die then why was he forsaken? Wales the angel had promised him survival but being on the cross he could not see himself surviving and cried out.

*Jesus said his mission was to "gather the 12 lost tribes of the house of Israel" 10 of which were not in Israel. "Go nowhere among the gentiles but rather to the 12 lost tribes of Israel"

*After the crucifixion special herbal remedies were applied which are only used to treat wounds and not prepare a dead body. If Jesus was dead then why give him this medicine.

*When Jesus, after the crucifixion went to his apostles they thought he was a spirit. He said "Touch me. Dost a spirit have flesh and blood like a man?" He showed his fresh wounds and ate with the disciples.

*When Roman soldiers passed by he hid behind a rock.

*When he left he went up the mountain of Olives into the clouds which were lying low. He went with Thomas.

This is all from the bible and I shall give all references if you require and there is much more of course. Please reply if you do not mind. These references are all from bible.

As for the authenticity of the Bible you are extremely wrong and this book has been tampered with for over 1,800 years and all Christian scholars and theologians agree openly to this fact.

[philologos]

Yes, and Yusif Mirza if you read the Apostolic writings you will find that is explained totally. Jesus took upon our sins on the cross, he took on a curse which was meant to be on us, and he took our punishment. That's why Christians say that they have been "saved".

As for "My God, My God why have you foresaken me". That is a quote from David's Psalms. If you look to the Psalm that it is in (Psalm 22) it's a lot more clear.

"But I am a worm, and not human;
scorned by others, and despised by the people.
All who see me mock at me;
they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
‘Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver—
let him rescue the one in whom he delights!’ "

"For dogs are all around me;
a company of evildoers encircles me.
My hands and feet have shrivelled;*
I can count all my bones.
They stare and gloat over me;
they divide my clothes among themselves,
and for my clothing they cast lots."

Now look to Matthew 27:35 "And when they had crucified him, they divided his clothes among themselves by casting lots"

"My God, my God why have you foresaken me" - was to cause the Jews to look to the Tanakh and see that God has fulfilled His word through Jesus Christ.

The Bible has been tampered with for 1800 years? Provide evidence. I know that 5 passages are disputed, however isn't it also true that Al Bukhari said that it was harder to compile the Qur'an than to move a mountain? And isn't it also true that Al Bukhari said that there were several different Qur'ans in existence and that they were ordered to be burned? How do we know that the Qur'an that we have now is the true Qur'an?

Originally Posted by Yusif Mizra

*Jesus said his mission was to "gather the 12 lost tribes of the house of Israel" 10 of which were not in Israel. "Go nowhere among the gentiles but rather to the 12 lost tribes of Israel"

That was only for that time. Jesus told them to spread the Gospel to all nations after His death (Matthew 28, Mark 16).

Also Jesus spoke to the Gentiles in the Bible, such as the Syro-phonecian woman, the Roman centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his friend and so on. Peter also received a vision to preach to the Gentiles in the book of Acts.

If the Second Coming had already happened, we wouldn't be here right now according to the Bible:

Matthew 24:29-30- ‘Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "

Not only does the Bible say that these things have to happen, the Bible also tells us not to believe anyone who proclaims the Messiah has come before these things have happened. If the Second Coming had happened already, the elect would already be in heaven.

Matthew 24:23 - "Then if anyone says to you, "Look! Here is the Messiah!" or "There he is" - do not believe it."

Matthew 24:26 - "If they say to you, "Look! He is in the wilderness", do not go out. If they say, "Look! He is in the inner rooms do not beleive it"

[Yusuf Mirza]

Well brother you have asked a few different questions there. Firstly lets look at what the bible says about atonement

* The father shall not be put to death for the children, neither the children put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sins. DEUTERONOMY 24:16

So clearly there is a problem here. As it sais that the fathers sin can not be inherited by the son.

*The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall he upon him. EZEKIEL 18.2 & 20


*But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For every man shall bear his own burden. GALATIANS 6.4/5

Again here there is the same renunciation of the doctrine of atonement.
So then there is the question of how one can become free from and shed sin.

*Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruits of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the record of his hand shall be given him. ISAIAH 3:10/11

*So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. MATTHEW 13:49/50

*And then he shall reward every man according to his works. MATTHEW 16.27

So we see clearly that the way to salvation is to be good and do good and then God shall forgive you your sins and there is no need for God to become man and die.

[philologos]

You're very selective in your passages. However you haven't answered my question. If these things haven't happened (as in Matthew 24), how can we say that the Messiah has returned?

I'll find more passages on the Christian view of atonement when I get home, it surely isn't as simple as that, considering that Jesus was both human and divine as written in the Bible (John 1, Phillippians 2). Jesus wasn't "just a man" in Christianity. He's the one who took on the iniquities of the people as in Isaiah 53.

[Yusuf Mirza]

Thats quite nieve though. You accept the writings of others who never met Jesus and came hundreds of years later to the actual words and teachings of Jesus himself.

*Why do you call me good? Thee is no one who is good but he who is in heaven. As I see and I hear I judge. Not my own Judgement but the judgement of the father who has sent me.

So clearly Jesus is making things clear lest someone should start to think that he is divine. He is doing God will not his own. He is just a messenger.

Here is an example of alteration on the bible;

MATTHEW 24.36
But of this day and hour knoweth no man, no, nor the angels of heaven, but my Father only. - Origionel

But of that day and hour knowth no man, no, nor the angels of heaven, not even the son but the Father only. - New revised versions

Here are some more temperings;

ACTS 20.28
Feed the Church of God, which he hath purchased with the blood of his own.

Feed the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

MATTHEW 24.36
But of this day and hour knoweth no man, no, nor the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But of that day and hour knowth no man, no, nor the angels of heaven, not even the son but the Father only.

I CORINTHIANS 10.9
Let us not put the power of the Lord to test.

Neither let us tempt Christ.

ISAIAH 7.14 & MATTHEW 1.23
Behold, a young woman shall conceive a child.

Behold a virgin shall conceive a child.

ACTS 3:26
Unto you first Lord, having raised up his servant.

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus.

ROMANS 9:5
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh came the Messiah. May God who is above all, be blessed for ever. Amen!

Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is overall, God blessed for ever. Amen!

To them belong, the patriachs and of their are, according to the flesh, is Christ, who is God over all. blessed for ever. (CATHOLIC VERSION)

JUDE 1.14
Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousand of his saints.

I saw the Lord come with his myrid of angels.

MARK 10:18
And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good?

Good, said Jesus. Why do you ask me about good?

[Yusuf Mirza]

these are just 10 of the thousands of mistakes and contredicions in the bible.
Old Testement first.

1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

* God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
* Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

* Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
* One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

* Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
* Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

* Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
* Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

* Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
* Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)

6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

* Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
* Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)

7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

* Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
* Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)

8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

* Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
* Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)

9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

* After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
* Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)

10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

* Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
* Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)

[philologos]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

Thats quite nieve though. You accept the writings of others who never met Jesus and came hundreds of years later to the actual words and teachings of Jesus himself.

Before I even look at your verses. There is no point arguing over translations which are phrased differently than the others. They still make the same point. If you want accuracy look to the Greek codex. It's like if several people translated the Qur'an it might look slightly different in words, but it is still the same.

You compare the KJV, with a more modern translation. They both argue the same thing, but yet are phrased differently. If you want to know 100% what a passage says get a Greek and Hebrew lexicon.

Anyhow, you have made a logical fallacy in quoting the Bible. You say it is corrupt, and then use a section to try prove me wrong on the divinity of Christ? Surely if the Bible is corrupt the section you quote could be more corrupt or just as corrupt than the pieces I use. A Muslim cannot use the Bible honestly in an argument if they don't believe it to be accurate and true. For example Muslims often quote a section from the Gospel of John, and then claim that the book is wrong to say that Jesus is the Son of God amongst other things.

Also it seems apparent to me that you are quoting sections from a website instead of using your own reading of the text. Don't believe everything you read on biased websites which intend to put forward an Islamic viewpoint of a Judeo-Christian text. There are many verses confirming the divinity of Christ in the Bible. If you are to use the Bible in quotations, you must be willing to suggest that the text is indeed true. Otherwise it won't convince me, if you don't give one passage the same value as another.

[Yusuf Mirza]

First let me make it clear that as a Muslim I believe that the Torah was given to Moses

by Allah but it was not preserved in its original form. As we see here in Jeremiah it is

written.

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law(Torah) of the LORD is with us’?

But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. “ ( Revised Standard

Version, Jeremiah 8:8 )


So here we see that the bible itself attests to the corruptness of the text.

If there are different translations that say wildly different things then which one to

chose? Let me show you one example.


In relation to the resurection of Jesus the original Greek was “stood up” but was changed to

“died and rose again”

"For if we are believing that Jesus died and he stood up …" (1 Thessalonians 4:14,

adapted from the Greek-English interlinear KIT). Nearly every translation of this clause

says he "died and rose again," which the Greek here does not actually say.

So here if we go back to the original Greek then you have to change what you believe

because the crux of your belief is compromised by false teaching from a corrupted text.

Whereas the Qur’an is in its unchanged and pure form of Arabic so whatever the

translation we have and learn to read the original. So whatever language it is translated

into, we have the Arabic on hand.

[Jari]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

I am an Irish convert to Islam living in Galway.

Furthermore we believe that as Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet and Islam the last Law that the Messiah will come from among the Muslims. He will be someone with Jesus's characteristics who will claim to be the Messiah.

That person was Hazret Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. We are in 198 countries with over 200 million believers and growing with our own channel
"MTA International" on Shy channel 787.


I would love to hear from anyone who would like to hear the message. Not interested in abuse or ridicule.


Wasalam
Yusuf

Mirza did not come with Jesus. merza died and jesus did not come yet than merza is not the messiah. wich prouves does merza has to make him messiah.

[philologos]

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

First let me make it clear that as a Muslim I believe that the Torah was given to Moses

As do all Christians. However the Torah is comprised of a narrative as well as the Law, such as explaning the Jewish conquest of Israel, and explaining the events that happened along the way from Egypt. We are meant to learn from the actions of the prophets as well as just the words.

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

by Allah but it was not preserved in its original form. As we see here in Jeremiah it is written.

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law(Torah) of the LORD is with us’?

But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. “ ( Revised Standard

Version, Jeremiah 8:8 )

Yusif, I want you to be honest with me, are you getting this from a website or are you thinking of this for yourself. A quick google tells me that this is a common argument.

Answering Christianity: http://www.answering-christianity.co...jeremiah_8.htm

Answering Islam: http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/jer8_8_ss.html

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

So here we see that the bible itself attests to the corruptness of the text.

If there are different translations that say wildly different things then which one to chose? Let me show you one example.

Really? I think it indicates that a group of scribes may have corrupted the Torah, however does this say that the manuscripts which are contained within the Bible are corrupt? Whereas Al Bukhari makes it clear that the Qur'an was harder to compile than to move a mountain, and that there were multiple Qur'ans.

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

In relation to the resurection of Jesus the original Greek was “stood up” but was changed to

“died and rose again”

"For if we are believing that Jesus died and he stood up …" (1 Thessalonians 4:14,

adapted from the Greek-English interlinear KIT). Nearly every translation of this clause

says he "died and rose again," which the Greek here does not actually say.

So here if we go back to the original Greek then you have to change what you believe

No, I don't have to change what I believe infact. I don't change what I believe when you aren't providing proof that the Greek was changed. You are merely saying that varying translations have explained the same passage using slightly different words. It's irrelevant anyway as Paul talks about the Resurrection of Jesus in many more books, such as Phillippians chapter 2, and 1 Corinthians 15. Even if you found this one passage to be disputed, you would have to nullify the rest of the passages concerning the Resurrection both in the Gospels, the prophesies in the Tanakh, and the writings of St. Paul in the New Testament. It's not enough to think that the wording of one passage is incorrect without going through all the passages that concern the Resurrection. I personally think it's impossible to doubt the resurrection given that the early Church's history indicates that something extrordinary happened at Jerusalem. Also it has been historically verified that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

As for "stood up" even if this is true. I doubt that it is, however. If you stand up after you die, surely that is the same as coming back to life? What is so improbable given the miracles discussed of in the Qur'an that Jesus would indeed be resurrected?

Originally Posted by Yusuf Mirza

because the crux of your belief is compromised by false teaching from a corrupted text.

Whereas the Qur’an is in its unchanged and pure form of Arabic so whatever the translation we have and learn to read the original. So whatever language it is translated

into, we have the Arabic on hand.

Read Al Bukhari's Hadith (volume 6), it will raise some questions about the Qur'an and how it was compiled.

Also the Qur'an borrows from many unauthentic texts from the period. If you read Sura 5 Aya 110, you will find that it speaks of Jesus fashioning clay birds and breathing life into them, if you read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas (which is considered a heretical text) you will find the same things said about the clay birds.

My main questions are these though:

1) Why do you think that anyone apart from Jesus would be the Messiah?
2) Why do you think the Second Coming would happen in a different way as described in previous texts?
3) Why do you think that we should believe the Messiah when Jesus Himself told us not to believe that the Messiah has come based on the word of mouth.

You have been deviating from the main point.