Bus Lanes - obstacle to meeting kyoto?

Tea drinker · 10-01-2008 10:19am #1

Giving the evidence everyday that people are sitting in cars for ages while practically no buses pass by in their dedicated lane, surely there is an argument against these lanes? I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...
How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)
Also there is a substantial maintenance overhead for having miles of underused roadway versus the well utilised roadway for mixed use. I don't know how much the bus companies contribute to this, or if they have paid anything to have a dedicated lane available.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours. Less money spent on petrol, car maintenance more productive hours available to people and employers, faster delivery times, less time to get to meetings etc.

If we had a nice integrated public transport system we could argue that a well populated bus lane feeding into that would be useful - but we don't.

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 10:41am

Tea drinker wrote: »

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

You quite clearly have not taken into consideration the people who use the bus in that assessment. If bus lanes were open to all traffic during peak hours, then bus journey times would be substantially increased. Not to mention a large number of people who currently use the bus may revert to using their cars, creating further congestion.

seamus · 10-01-2008 10:42am

If the bus lanes were opened at peak times to cars, it would only serve to delay the busses. Traffic will always swell to fill any extra capacity, particularly at peak times. If the busses are making no better progress than cars, many people will switch back to their cars (why pay to sit in traffic in a smelly, hot public bus when you can do the same in your private vehicle?), cars continue to make no progress and pollutants go up.

It's a key feature of bus lanes that they're not jam-packed with busses. By their nature, they allow busses to flow freely and so should appear "empty" for much of the time. Unused roadway also has a lower maintenance cost. Bus lanes would cost more if they were open to the public.

Many new roads now also come with bus lanes put into them from the start to allow for future capacity requirements and future bus routes, even if there are no busses on them. This actually makes perfect sense. The cost of a piece of idle bus lane is far lower than the cost down the road (in terms of money and disruption) of adding a bus lane to a road.

I would support initiatives which increased usage of the bus lanes without causing them to become packed. Car pooling is the most obvious - that anyone carrying at least two other adult passengers can use the bus lane.

DadaKopf · 10-01-2008 10:46am

Simple fact is, if those lanes weren't there, they'd be clogged up with traffic anyway. Bizarrely, the whole reason for introducing QBCs was to take buses out of the traffic jams. That way, the routes could operate efficiently. Without QBCs, buses would be stuck in traffic like any other vehicle.

And how on earth are QBCs contributing to carbon emissions? Firstly, carbon emissions per head plummet when travelling by bus (or other public transport). Secondly, QBCs are an incentive for people to get out of their cars.

Sure, the system needs to improve, but removing QBCs is stupid.

BrianD · 10-01-2008 11:49am

Tea drinker wrote: »

Giving the evidence everyday that people are sitting in cars for ages while practically no buses pass by in their dedicated lane, surely there is an argument against these lanes? I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...
How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)
Also there is a substantial maintenance overhead for having miles of underused roadway versus the well utilised roadway for mixed use. I don't know how much the bus companies contribute to this, or if they have paid anything to have a dedicated lane available.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours. Less money spent on petrol, car maintenance more productive hours available to people and employers, faster delivery times, less time to get to meetings etc.

If we had a nice integrated public transport system we could argue that a well populated bus lane feeding into that would be useful - but we don't.

I don't think I've come accross so much much rubbish in a long time.

a) Traffic situation in Dublin (for example) is not caused by bus lanes nor will it change if they were removed. It is caused by bad planning that has led to unsustainable developments and a huge increase in car usage. Most of the cars stuck in traffic have already travelled long distances already contributing to our emmissions.

b) It has already been proved that the addition of QBC's have added to the efficiency of the routes that the work on. The N11 corridor how carries more people then it did prior to the addition of the QBC.

c) Dublin Bus has just over 1,000 buses in their fleet spread over their routes. Exactly how many buses did the chap in Blackrock expect to see?

d) Most bus lanes do have mixed use as they are only operated for part of the day or, in the past, would have been a hard shoulder. Are you calling for all hard shoulders to be opened to traffic as there is probabaly more 'underused' hard shoulders in Dublin than bus lanes.

the economics of bus lanes make perfect sense and given the sprawl created by bad and corrupt planning, will continue to make economic sense and should be expanded.

dublincityvic · 10-01-2008 12:11pm

Was in the states for a few months.. carpool lanes seem to work well over there.. Opening the bus lanes for vehicles with two or more passengers would encourage neighbours and friends to share lifts to work, decreasing the volume of traffic on our roads at peak times. The amount of traffic i pass by everyday with only one person in the car is a joke..what are your opinions on this system?

Zombrex · 10-01-2008 12:16pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

I see little reason to believe that.

Traffic delays are caused by bottlenecks, such as traffic lights, crashed cars, T-junctions etc. They aren't really caused by the lack of 2 lanes on roads. In fact the merging of 2 lanes to one lane is in itself a bottleneck.

So as someone else said, allowing cars on the bus lanes would imply mean the buses are delayed.

markpb · 10-01-2008 12:28pm

dublincityvic wrote: »

Was in the states for a few months.. carpool lanes seem to work well over there.. Opening the bus lanes for vehicles with two or more passengers would encourage neighbours and friends to share lifts to work, decreasing the volume of traffic on our roads at peak times. The amount of traffic i pass by everyday with only one person in the car is a joke..what are your opinions on this system?

A lot of states in the US are reconsidering their use of car pool lanes because there's no evidence that people _who wouldn't otherwise_ share are car are pooling because of the lane. linky LA county are considering moving from a carpool only to tolled express lanes.

Based on our review of available data, we conclude that the performance of HOV lanes is mixed... Regional data indicate that HOV lanes do induce people to carpool, but the statewide impact on carpooling is unknown due to lack of data.

Considering how poorly our bus lanes are enforced at present, car pool lanes would be a complete joke with every tom, dick and harry in them. The original post was a joke anyway - the idea that bus lanes worsen congestion is a myth propagated by a handful of selfish car drivers who haven't a clue how traffic systems work. I seriously doubt the guy on the radio only saw two buses but even so, they could be carrying up to 200 people. Good idea to add 200 more cars to the road, that'll help

Saruman · 10-01-2008 12:31pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...

Bet that guy was sitting there during that hour wishing he had taken the bus then

egan007 · 10-01-2008 12:35pm

Buslanes are a great idea. However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

Opening more lanes up to cars only achieves 2 things.
1) Makes 2 queues half the length of the original
2) Encourages more traffic as there is a perception of more space.

The eventual result of this is that you end up with 2 queued both the length of the original

Saruman · 10-01-2008 12:48pm

I Agree... On any route that has a QBC all or most of the way then there should be a bus every 5 mins.
Also, there is no reason the Bus service could not be changed over to Biofuel as they are big dirty vehicles.

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 12:53pm

Saruman wrote: »

Bet that guy was sitting there during that hour wishing he had taken the bus then

Ahh, very good!

egan007 wrote: »

However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

There are two major obstacles to this:

Lack of government funding in the past (although this may change this year, with record investment planned).
Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

egan007 · 10-01-2008 12:56pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Ahh, very good!

There are two major obstacles to this:
Lack of government funding in the past (although this may change this year, with record investment planned).

Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.
Of course there's always the robots.....

Saruman · 10-01-2008 1:01pm

Killer robots behind the wheel of a bus.... sounds like a movie idea

Im not sure about people not wanting to drive a bus though.. They make some good money, much better in fact than your average graduate makes, plus unlike construction etc, its pretty much a job for life with excellent benefits. I was thinking about getting out of IT as Dublin Bus paid more.. then i got a higher paying job so i stayed in IT.

seamus · 10-01-2008 1:02pm

djpbarry wrote: »

[*]Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

You be surprised. Many people enjoy driving, and driving a bus is one of those manual jobs that doesn't require you to be out in the cold, does require some amount of skill/thought and lets you meet people. DB drivers also have the benefit of good benefits/perks, flexible hours (with overtime) and a pensionable job for life.

Those in later years would be particularly drawn to it.

dublincityvic · 10-01-2008 1:08pm

markpb wrote: »

Considering how poorly our bus lanes are enforced at present, car pool lanes would be a complete joke with every tom, dick and harry in them. The original post was a joke anyway -

Well it could'nt make the problem worse than it already is.. Increase the number of traffic corpse gardai enforcing the carpool and bus lane rule and fine Tom Dick and not forgetting Harry a ridiculous OTT fine and 4 penalty points so it won't be worth they're while in the bus lane..

Saruman · 10-01-2008 1:19pm

Traffic "Corpse" Gardai is right, sitting around like the dead.
Although some might try pretending to be a corpse then jump up with a speed gun and nab you

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 1:23pm

Saruman wrote: »

Also, there is no reason the Bus service could not be changed over to Biofuel as they are big dirty vehicles.

I believe that biofuel buses are in testing. It is planned to move to using a 5% biodiesel blend in current CIE vehicles and a 30% blend in new vehicles. In addition, I believe Dublin Bus will be leasing a prototype hybrid electric double-decker bus in 2008 on a trial basis.

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.

Not so sure about that - the Dublin Bus package isn't half bad.

seamus wrote: »

Many people enjoy driving, and driving a bus is one of those manual jobs that doesn't require you to be out in the cold, does require some amount of skill/thought and lets you meet people. DB drivers also have the benefit of good benefits/perks, flexible hours (with overtime) and a pensionable job for life.

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

DadaKopf · 10-01-2008 1:23pm

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.
Of course there's always the robots.....

This isn't the 'obvious answer' at all. The record of privatisation across Europe is very mixed, tending toward the negative. Both worker and passenger loses out. Work conditions deteriorate and pay declines as private operators forbid employees to join unions. Ticket prices increase and 'unprofitable' routes close; companies provide services because they are profitable, not because they are needed. Increasingly, citizens - worker-passengers - lose control of their services and lose quality of life. Meanwhile, transport company bosses and shareholders cream off the profit for themselves.

I'm not saying in all cases privatisation (or 'competition') is bad. I'm not saying in all cases public ownership is good. But privatisation is not necessarily good, and it hinges on strong government regulation and a supportive worker-citizen culture to make it work in everyone's interests. In collectivist societies with strong values of social solidarity and welfare/rights protection, it has worked better. I found the bus and tram system in Helsinki excellent even though the buses are run by Connex. In hyper-capitalist societies like the US or UK, privatisation hasn't worked well, workers' rights have declined, prices have risen, and societies have become car-dependent.

I'm not convinced that Ireland yet has the 'supportive culture' to make a widespread, public transport system that is privately owned work.

seamus · 10-01-2008 1:28pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

Let me guess; You're a young male, came from a middle-class family, did fairly well in school, enjoyed a four-year stint college which mainly involved drinking and partying?

That's not an attack on you, but when you grow up in that environment, you find it hard to put yourself in the shoes of the guy who came from an abusive family, scraped his way through school and barely left with a leaving cert.

Saruman · 10-01-2008 1:41pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

Yeah but young people want to do nothing and get paid for it

Im hardly old, im 28 and would have done it. Only thing that puts me off is the shift work, If i lived in Dublin it would be grand. I could make use of the free transport.

the_syco · 10-01-2008 1:46pm

The advantage of the QBC is that it can whiz by the traffic. If it didn't the people would just drive. During peak hours, when the bus is jammed with people, they take a lot of cars off the road.

And oh, for the people who think that privatizing the buses is a good idea: if this happened, any place that didn't get max capacity would either get less buses, or no buses. Many people don't see the need for a car to work, if they live in Dublin, as they can get the bus to work. Take away the bus, and you increase the amount of cars being driven to work.

With the abuse some drivers get by a few scumbags in Finglas, I doubt there'd be a private bus going there too often. Or they could just cancel it.

markpb · 10-01-2008 1:50pm

egan007 wrote: »

Buslanes are a great idea. However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

If you see an empty bus lane on a main road, the reason is probably because of a jam at the start of the bus lane and not a lack of buses. Every morning all the major inbound junctions clog up and as people try to merge at the start of the lane, they get stuck and the buses can't get into the lane.

For example, Malahide QBC at Donneycarney and Swords Road QBC at Whitehall. Anyone sitting south of those junctions would swear there were no buses even though they're queueing waaaay back the other side. On more than one occasion I've sat in a convoy of over twenty buses waiting to get through Donneycarney.

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 3:02pm

seamus wrote: »

You're a young male

Yes.

seamus wrote: »

came from a middle-class family

No.

seamus wrote: »

did fairly well in school

Yes.

seamus wrote: »

enjoyed a four-year stint college which mainly involved drinking and partying?

I went to college and got my degree but I certainly did not enjoy it, no.

seamus wrote: »

That's not an attack on you

Yes it was and I did not appreciate it.

seamus · 10-01-2008 3:52pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes it was and I did not appreciate it.

It wasn't. I'm in that category and have plenty of friends in that category. But I also have plenty of mates in the "barely finished school" category and I see first-hand how sometimes people can't see the world from a different viewpoint and can't understand how other people would want to drive busses or work as gardeners.

djpbarry · 10-01-2008 4:02pm

seamus wrote: »

I'm in that category and have plenty of friends in that category. But I also have plenty of mates in the "barely finished school" category and I see first-hand how sometimes people can't see the world from a different viewpoint and can't understand how other people would want to drive busses or work as gardeners.

Fair enough.

I should probably point out that I worked for Dublin Bus for a few months in the summer of '96 (I think) - I would never go back.

Victor · 10-01-2008 8:56pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)

The cars aren't moving because of choke points (for example where a road becomes 1 lane either way instead of 2 lanes either way), not because of the bus lane.

lostexpectation · 11-01-2008 5:40am

how many buses do you need to pass by to justify the progress mad by the bus in the empty lane,I suspect its not many. i suspect its about half as many as the people sitting in cars expect.

there was interesting report recently about the major choke points in the city after that truck broke down blocking one, I wonder how those could be tackled.

OTK · 11-01-2008 5:45pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...

Hard to believe because it's not true. 15 buses per hour use the Blackrock QBC in peak times. When you're in a traffic jam looking at a relatively empty bus lane while listening to the radio and making phone calls, it's easy to miss the buses going past and assume the worst.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now.

Converting a car lane to a bus lane can increase the number of people who can use a road per hour. You can read the QBC monitoring reports at the DTO if you need to see the numbers for yourself. QBCs have been in use for 10 years now so it's well established.

I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

Although you might think that, less people would be able to use the road and public transport would lose passengers to cars with consequent environmental and congestion costs.

You are right that it is inefficient for people to queue in traffic. One solution would be to toll the road during peak hours to the point where the road is free flowing. Adding capacity to a road is unlikely to help us meet our Kyoto targets as it would induce people to drive rather than use public transport.

Tea drinker · 12-01-2008 12:05am

markpb wrote: »

If you see an empty bus lane on a main road, the reason is probably because of a jam at the start of the bus lane and not a lack of buses. Every morning all the major inbound junctions clog up and as people try to merge at the start of the lane, they get stuck and the buses can't get into the lane.

For example, Malahide QBC at Donneycarney and Swords Road QBC at Whitehall. Anyone sitting south of those junctions would swear there were no buses even though they're queueing waaaay back the other side. On more than one occasion I've sat in a convoy of over twenty buses waiting to get through Donneycarney.

But this negates the points everyone else made that the buses "whiz by" all the cars! And this proves they are not fit for purpose - they simply don't work when they are most needed.I have no problems with a good transport system, we don't have that and people are being genuinely inconvenienced to support a monopoly, of the service and infrastrucure. In most situations people have no realistic alternative but to drive to work, and this should be facilitated. Like it or not, car drivers are the primary users of the roads, with even cyclists probably making better utilisation of the available infrastructure.
I disagree that doubling the lanes will double the congestion, it simply doesn't add up that 2 lanes are no faster than one, and to be honest where QBC are introduced the resulting slowdowns for everyone in the remaining lane are undeniable - obviously opening them up allows more traffic to flow. And what about the situation where traffic (including the buses) is backed up on the lead-in to a new QBC area. If the QBC didn't exist the (first) bottleneck for the bus would be removed or substantially reduced.
So yes they are adding to pollution and decreasing efficiency and quality of life of people who have paid substantially to use the road. This at a time when no joined up infrastructure is available to give people a decent alternative is far from in place. Why hobble ourselves until this is introduced?
Until cars can be priced off the roads (eliminate the competition - rather than compete on price/service) QBC are a waste of time and money.

djpbarry · 12-01-2008 1:33am

Tea drinker wrote: »

people are being genuinely inconvenienced to support a monopolyv

Dublin Bus is not a monopoly - there is at least one (probably more) other urban private bus company operating in the city.

Tea drinker wrote: »

...with even cyclists probably making better utilisation of the available infrastructure.

Please...

What infrastructure is there available for cyclists apart from a smattering of “lanes” painted on the road?

Tea drinker wrote: »

I disagree that doubling the lanes will double the congestion, it simply doesn't add up that 2 lanes are no faster than one

Case in point: the Westlink Toll Bridge. Capacity was doubled - virtually no effect on traffic congestion.

Tea drinker wrote: »

This at a time when no joined up infrastructure is available to give people a decent alternative is far from in place.

Possibly because the bulk of funding for infrastructure goes into the road network (presumably to satisfy individuals such as yourself) rather than public transport.

Bus Lanes - obstacle to meeting kyoto?

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