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Another C. Heating NEwbie

eas · 2005-11-15 09:48:37

hi all I've been having problems with my central heating since last year. At the time only one rad was cold, but now it's 2 and seesm to be moving into a 3rd. This is probably due to my tinkering, making the problem worse. It sounds very simular to the problem in the thread below, as in I've tried the bleed and no water…

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15-11-2005 10:48am

#1

eas

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hi all

I've been having problems with my central heating since last year. At the time only one rad was cold, but now it's 2 and seesm to be moving into a 3rd. This is probably due to my tinkering, making the problem worse.

It sounds very simular to the problem in the thread below, as in I've tried the bleed and no water comes out after the air stops. Main differnce is that my problem is on the second floor, not the ground floor (not sure if that matters).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846518

anyhow, it seems the answer may be in the thread above, but I have no idea what type of system I have nor what valve I should be turning or by how much.

Also, there is a pressure guage that seems to be very low?

so, in my helplessness I took a picture of my pipes and things hoping that someone could help me in this...... picture attached below. I'm sure you'll note that the gauge reads almost no pressure....is this normal?

any help very appreciated

thanks

eas

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#2 15-11-2005 11:28am
Corkey123

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The system you have appears to be a closed system that relies on the pressure rather than the gravity systems that uses an expansion tank in the atticc. The gauge you show registers no pressure and hence the reason you have no heating in some rads. When you attemp to bleed the rads the pressure forces the air out, thats the reason why bleeding the rads is of no penefit, there is no pressure in the system. Increase the pressure to one and attempt to bleed the rad, you will hear the air being expelled until the pressure dies down to zero again.

Continue to do this until you experience water coming out of the bleeding nut.

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#3 15-11-2005 11:42am
eas

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thanks for your reply MArtin.

I pretty much figured that the low pressure was the reason why no air was coming out of the rads when i tried to bleed them, a couple of questions regarding this......

how do I increase the pressure?

how much do I increase the pressure by?

thanks again

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#4 15-11-2005 12:07pm
tapest

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eas wrote:

hi all

I've been having problems with my central heating since last year. At the time only one rad was cold, but now it's 2 and seesm to be moving into a 3rd. This is probably due to my tinkering, making the problem worse.

It sounds very simular to the problem in the thread below, as in I've tried the bleed and no water comes out after the air stops. Main differnce is that my problem is on the second floor, not the ground floor (not sure if that matters).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846518

anyhow, it seems the answer may be in the thread above, but I have no idea what type of system I have nor what valve I should be turning or by how much.

Also, there is a pressure guage that seems to be very low?

so, in my helplessness I took a picture of my pipes and things hoping that someone could help me in this...... picture attached below. I'm sure you'll note that the gauge reads almost no pressure....is this normal?

any help very appreciated

thanks

eas

Eas You still on line ??

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#5 15-11-2005 12:15pm
eas

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HI tapest

yes, still here

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#6 15-11-2005 12:18pm
tapest

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eas wrote:

HI tapest

yes, still here

PM sent
acknowledge plz...and don't go away
t

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#7 15-11-2005 12:30pm
JamesM

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Pipers might be best at this.:(
Where does the 1/2in pipe to the right of the gauge go to ? Is there a valve on it ? That's where the water for the system is coming from. This system looks like it might take water from the mains. That might be a pressure reducing valve behind the gauge. If so and if there is no other valve on that pipe, you could try turning it a small bit. But you must not let the pressure build up too high.
Got to go back to work
Jim

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#8 15-11-2005 12:32pm
tapest

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tapest wrote:

PM sent
acknowledge plz...and don't go away
t

Eas
Did you get pm?? I'm changing ISP and I may loose internet access at any time

t

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#9 15-11-2005 12:38pm
eas

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hi tapest - jsut got it now- cheers - I'm jsut off for a meeting, should be back in 30 - I'll sned you a PM when i get back -

thanks for that

eas

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#10 15-11-2005 12:58pm
loz

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same setup as mine,

( had it presurised due to having placed a read in the attic conversion )

on mine i open the bar valve ( the handle shapped red one - not the whell shaped one - sorry non tech terms - and you will hear the water come in from mains, and see presure increase. Mine seems to self regulate and stop taking in from mains when meter hits 1.5.

You wont be able to over pressure as the red canister will have a pressure escape valve ontop of it if you look closely

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#11 15-11-2005 1:27pm
eas

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thanks loz

so - just so I'm getting this strait -

1) turn the red handle to increase pressure
2) bleed rads until water comes out
3) repeat if nessesary
4) poor a glass of whiskey and enjoy the heat.

is there a nominal level of pressure that should be in the system? is 1.5 about right or too high?

tapest - what do you think? is the how you got yours working?

thanks again

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#12 15-11-2005 2:26pm
JamesM

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loz wrote:

same setup as mine,

( had it presurised due to having placed a read in the attic conversion )

on mine i open the bar valve ( the handle shapped red one - not the whell shaped one - sorry non tech terms - and you will hear the water come in from mains, and see presure increase. Mine seems to self regulate and stop taking in from mains when meter hits 1.5.

You wont be able to over pressure as the red canister will have a pressure escape valve ontop of it if you look closely

The valves you see in the photo are most likely not the valves you need to open to let water into the system. You can see from the photo that the handle is in the open position. There may be another handle somewhere out of sight in that shot.
What you call the "pressure escape valve on the top of the expansion vessel has nothing to do with pressure release. You certainly will be able to over pressurise the system if it is connected to the mains. If you do this you will get a jet of almost boiling water from the safety valve, wherever that is.:eek:
Jim

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#13 15-11-2005 4:21pm
eas

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thanks Jim

I've had an offline conversation with tapest (thanks tapest) who also says the valve I'm looking for is not in the picture, probably on the other side of the tank.

He's explaned to me how to spot it. In any case I'm going to go home and turn whatever valves are there until I find the one that increases the pressure.

I'll be back tomorrow with an update....and probably another picture.

thanks to everyone for the advice

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#14 15-11-2005 9:44pm
lomb

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could be a sealed system, needing filling by an external loop.ul know this if u can find attachment thread point for a screw on pipe and a corresponding valve.

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#15 16-11-2005 10:33am
eas

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OK - attempt #1 = failure. - sorry tapest.

I have 24 hours to fix this or my wife calls in a pro and my "Man Rating" drops
a few more points

so what I did, based on good advice was look on the other side of the
water boiler to find the knob tha should put water in my system, and as I
understand, in turn should increase the pressure, that will let me bleed the
air out, that will let me sit and relax with a glass of whiskey (and bailys)

at the risk of seeming like a completly useless fool - I took another picture (below).
I've numbered and colour coded the bits for me to easily understand any advice I should recieve.

So - when I got to the hot press last night, this is how things where >

A > closed
B > OPEN
C > closed
D > closed.

With the heating system turned ON - I opened *D* thinking that looked like the one I wanted.
I figured that *C* did not nothing in this case. I waited a few minutes the pressure didn't seem to be doing anything.

I than figured that if *D* was the one I wanted than it would make sense that *B* should be open to let
any water from *D* flow thru as they were on the same pipe (blue). When I opened *B* some gurgling
happened. I was not sure if this was letting water into the system, or draining it out. either way, the pressure seemed to remain the same.

Long story short, I played around with different combinations for about an hour with little noticeable difference in pressure. BOOO!

This morning before I left for work I opened the bleed valve on one of the rads that is not working, and it was
sucking air in, not blowing it out. ? I've somehow created a suction now!:mad:

So if someone can help here it would be appreciated. my
"Man Rating" is at stake!!

questions that came out of my experience last night >

What is the right combintaiton of OPEN and Closed?

If I did get the right combination of valves how long should it take
for the pressure to increase?

should the heating system be on or off when I'm doing this?

Sorry for the confusing/long post.

thanks for any help regarding this

eas

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#16 16-11-2005 12:25pm
JamesM

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I've got half an hour , so here goes

I'm trying to identify different pipes, so a few questions
Is your hotpress on the groung floor or upstairs ? Do you have rads on the floor above ?
Does the blue pipe in the 1st photo join the blue in the others ?
Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?
Presumably the pipe just down from the auto air vent goes into the side of the cylinder ?
Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?
I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

It will depend on your answers, but I still think that the small 1/2 inch pipe to the right of the gauge is the one which fills the system. Trace it back. Can the black piece above the gauge be turned. This may be a pressure reducing valve. I'll check back at lunchtime !
Jim

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#17 16-11-2005 12:44pm
eas

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ha - thanks James, I'm a master of overcomliicating things!

so to answer your quesitons...

Is your hotpress on the groung floor or upstairs ? Do you have rads on the floor above ?

the hotpress is on the groundfloor. yes there are rads on the second floor, they are the ones not getting heat.

the blue in the first photo is the blue pipe in the pther photos

yes, the blue pipe is the same in all photos

Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out the other side in the second photo

Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second

I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

blue pipe with *D* does go into the side of the cylinder

thanks for your time and advice Jim,

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#18 16-11-2005 1:44pm
beldin

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This is getting confusing.
Okay not a plumber but the gauge seems to be an automatic filler valve. I installed one last year , basically this means that if the mains water is connected to the input of this valve then it will allow water into the system to a set pressure.

So we have 2 possible problems
1/ The pipe going into the right hand side of the valve should have have a tap somewhere on it to supply mains pressure to the valve. I cannot see how it would not have one.

2/ If pressure is present then maybe the pressure valve is set wrong , can be adjusted by tightening or screwing out the nut on the bottom (I think ) it is a while since I did this.

However when I got mine it was preset to 1 bar which is the recommended level. I think option 1 is the problem but try and follow the pipe coming from the input to the pressure regulator.
If your wife complains say you know the problem but have to order a spare part...

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#19 16-11-2005 1:52pm
eas

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hi beldin

thanks for your input.

I'm almost sure that the pipe to right of the gauge wraps around and goes into the floor and has no other taps or such.

my wife has heard a few good ones over the years.......she knows my tricks by now

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#20 16-11-2005 2:12pm
beldin

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Well if there are no taps then allegedly there is pressure to the regulator. So maybe you can adjust it via the bottom bolt. Again I am not sure about this so take it easy.
Screw in to increase pressure and out to decrease it or vice versa.
Sorry a long time since I did this myself.

Found this link
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/waterpressureregulators.html

Shows a diagram of what I mean except the diagram is upside down and doesn't have a pressure gauge..

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#21 16-11-2005 2:22pm
JamesM

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eas wrote:

the blue in the first photo is the blue pipe in the pther photos

yes, the blue pipe is the same in all photos

Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out the other side in the second photo

Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second

I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

blue pipe with *D* does go into the side of the cylinder

QUOTE]

I'm Back !

Is the only reason you think that the blue pipes are the same, because they go into opposite sides of the cylinder ?
Or are they linked some other way ?
Your quote: "yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second " IS THIS THE ONLY LINK ? I think that one is the feed from the main water tank to the cylinder. and the other is the return to the boiler from the coil in the cylinder.
Anyway as I said before and as Beldin has just said, I am certain that the pipe on the right of the gauge is the cold feed from the mains and the black knob above the gauge is a pressure reducer or regulator. There may also be a valve further back on that pipe.
Jim.

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#22 16-11-2005 2:35pm
eas

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thanks James and beldin

yes - the only reason why I think they are the same is because it goes in one side of the cylindar....and seems to be the same one coming out the other side. so

Is the only reason you think that the blue pipes are the same, because they go into opposite sides of the cylinder ?

yes

Or are they linked some other way ?

no

ok - what you guys are saying seems to make sense - the pipe going into the guage from the right is cold. so......

I'll have a go at it tonight and hope for the best.

I'm now concerned that I may have turned something off that should be on and am on the way to cooking something because of no water in the boiler....gak, that will get me into some trouble

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#23 16-11-2005 2:45pm
JamesM

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eas wrote:

I'm now concerned that I may have turned something off that should be on and am on the way to cooking something because of no water in the boiler....gak, that will get me into some trouble

A B & D should be open !
Check out around the gauge / pressure regulator and the pipe on the right.
Hopefully then you will be able to " sit and relax with a glass of whiskey (and bailys)"
Jim.

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#24 16-11-2005 2:48pm
eas

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thanks james

- to open them - I turn to clockwise....right?

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#25 16-11-2005 3:21pm
beldin

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Anti-clockwise, same as a tap to turn it on.

Clockwise to close it.

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#26 16-11-2005 3:31pm
eas

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yikes!

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#27 16-11-2005 3:45pm
Corkey123

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Come on eas we're all routing for ya

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#28 16-11-2005 4:19pm
eas

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thanks Martin -

seeing as how I just called the childminder to tell her not to turn on the heat or imersion, i'd get anohter man to back!

so once again - A , B and D should be open ?

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#29 16-11-2005 6:16pm
Corkey123

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Eas

Is it possible you might have been closing rather than opening these valves ?

D and C appear to be the same feed from above and therefore should be open.

D is the blue pipe and is feeding the hot cylinder from the storage tank in the attic. This must be open, if it is closed it will prevent the pressure entering the tank and your hot taps in the bathroom and the kitchen will cease.
Try this - open and close it. If this is the case then we can rule out the blue pipe or D.

C appear to be an extension of the blue pipe and appears to be heading down stairs ?. It must be feeding into something (Down stairs cold tap - unlikely) There is a stopcock on this, that is for isolated that particular feed, I would suggest this is left open, but try and trace its eventual destination/use

Why would B and A be closed, surely the only valved to be closed is the one supplying the pressure and this is only closed when the correct level of pressure has been reached.

Sorry eas I'm asking more questions than supplying answers.

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#30 16-11-2005 6:50pm
JamesM

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I think that his "YIKES" meant that he realised that he was turning the valves the wrong way. His hotpress is downstairs. Maybe C goes through the floor, but I think tha it looks as if it ends there. I think that it is a drain for the cylinder. If so DON'T open it :eek:
Jim.

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#31 16-11-2005 6:57pm
Corkey123

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Maybe C goes through the floor, but I think tha it looks as if it ends there. I think that it is a drain for the cylinder. If so DON'T open it

YIKES !!!

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