Geo Theromal Heating

yop · 05-01-2004 12:51pm #1

Lads

Has anyone any experience with Geo Thermal heating.
I have decided I am going to go with an undersoil solution to heat my house and was wondering if anyone has come across anyone with a similiar solution

thanks

Borzoi · 05-01-2004 1:58pm

Direct geothermal energy is generally only any use if you've found a particualr 'hot spot'

Far more common is to use a heat pump arrangement with the underground elelemnt acting as a heat sink in summer and a heat source in winter. Again this is largely associated with underfloor heating as there are synergies between both systems ie using large amounts of moderate temperature water.

yop · 05-01-2004 3:41pm

Thanks for that, I am going with the "coil" looped capture area. A mate has it is and he is very happy with. I have seen the idea of drilling the well but I have over 1/2 acre to mess with so it I have the ground area.

thanks

Eurorunner · 05-01-2004 5:53pm

sounds interesting yop. What did it cost your mate? Do you have any links to his type of system?

daveg · 15-01-2004 12:45pm

Yop,

I think I've heard of this before. Can you elaberate and give more details. I'm very interested. I heard of a simular situation where (basically) they drilled down a couple of hundred meters into the ground. Fed down a pipe and it provided all the heat they needed. Is this the same thing?

luckat · 15-01-2004 1:37pm

Sustainable Energy Ireland will help you with this:

http://www.sei.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=1011

There's a convent somewhere that runs an organic centre, and they have a heat pump system running just under the surface of the organic garden, taking the heat from the earth and using it to heat the house and greenhouses, as far as I remember. I'll try to remember to hunt out an article about it.

luckat · 16-01-2004 12:36am

Ah, here you go:

http://www.technologyireland.ie/archiveissue/index.tmpl?magdate=731520&sec=6&_eqSKUdatarq=20021106112948

(if that doesn't work, Technology Ireland November 2002, Energy from the Earth article)

yop · 17-01-2004 2:13am

Finally some one who has heard of IT!! Mad but they amount of people I tell that I am going to put this either say never heard of it or give u that look!!!
I am going with Dunstart www.dunstar.ie

My mate put it in and he went with these guys and ws very happy with them

I got a quote of them without the plans for a 2100 sq feet house of 8000.

So going on my mates toms usage of 630 euro a year on heating costs (this is actually electricity to run the pumps) it will take about 8 years to make the full cost back.

Daveg - Have a look at the site lad, all the info is there. You need the same sq footage as ur house if u use the coil system for the capture area.

The drill system is the same idea alright.

luckat - That is where my mate got the idea from with the convent, not sure whree they are though

If ye wish I can give u updates as to how things go, house is only at planning stage though and when the system is in you are welcome to come and see it in action.

gluck

luckat · 17-01-2004 9:55pm

Glad to be of help. Yep, send updates. The more people hear about this, the more the price will come down.

yop · 18-01-2004 11:58pm

In the norht the gov give a grant of about 1500 sterling for people who use this sort of system. Then again lads we live in the country of rip off!!!

Will be a pleasure to keep ye updated. Any advice or knowledge I will gladly pass on

Borzoi · 19-01-2004 5:13pm

Originally posted by yop

So going on my mates toms usage of 630 euro a year on heating costs (this is actually electricity to run the pumps) it will take about 8 years to make the full cost back.

Just a word of caution, after eight years the compressor at the heart of the system will be knackered, so at that point you may be looking at replacing the most expensive part of the plant.

Victor · 19-01-2004 9:07pm

Originally posted by yop
Daveg - Have a look at the site lad, all the info is there. You need the same sq footage as ur house if u use the coil system for the capture area.

This will depend slight on the aspect of your house - a south facing slope will do better than a north facing one.

demac · 06-12-2004 7:39pm

My brother had it installed in his house. He finds it a great sucess. He has a 1600 sq feet house with underfloor heating. I think all the plumbing cost in the region of 10K.
He used a company based in Listowel Co. Kerry. I think it is Millenium Heating.

zep · 07-12-2004 10:06am

Yop,
Try these also for more info...
www.Warmfloor.ie they use Climatemaster heat pumps.. very good so I hear.
www.unipipe.ie they use a Nibe heat pump (Fighter) which is developed specifically for use in ireland, as per their site.

I'm building a house now and going for Geo also.. Not even totally sure myself who I'm using but looks like a cost of 15k all in for underfloor on ground and first floor. The heat pump is the most expensive part by far. Geo will not work with rads as its not capable of producing the required temp to heat a rad.
Let me know how its going and if you make any decisions.

Cheers,
Steve

yop · 07-12-2004 1:59pm

Steve

The update on where I am with the UFH and the Geothermal.
House size is 2100 sq feet, built with timber frame so this makes a difference with the size of the heat pump and the amount of pipe for the UFH.

UFH - initally was going with warmfloor at a cost of 7262 inclusive of VAT + install.
One of the lads here got them and they decided that they would bring one of the pipe runs over the perline which was not very impressive, SO I was on another forum (I know it's a sin!!

but there were lads saying that they did it themselves and they were not big DIY buffs but recommended these lads up north so sent off the plans and the came back with a price. The price inclusive of VAT + delivery which includes CAD drawings for the pipe layout, the tools to install, an installation guide for dummies with pictures, all in 4400.
So as you can see with a bit of time on your hands and patience you can save a nice sum of money.

On the GEO - Dunstar are still in front, I got 7 quotes and they are still coming in the best, also I know people who have them and are extremely happy with them, which with something like this, it is important. Their quote is 9600 Euro all in. Some of them do not perform site visits which i think is important,, Dunstar do.

Lads I have an excel spreadsheet with all these quotes and if you post up your email addresses I will gladly email it to you, I know we are all in the same boat!

Slán

Wobs · 08-12-2004 2:33pm

Hey Guys,

I am also going with the Geo and UFH. If you have to drill a well for your water supply you should look at drilling one for the Geo system aswell. It will be a little more expensive then the ground source loop system but is far more efficient in the long run.

Word of warning, alot of the cheaper guys quality is not great, make sure you talk to people who have had it installed for a couple of years before you go with a system.

yop · 08-12-2004 5:10pm

Are you sure that the drill hole system is more efficent?? I have not anything which says that it is? Definately I have heard that the water based (your loop in in a lake not in the groun) is more efficient.
It is definately must more expensive to get installed.

Reputation is a great thing with these guys alright

Wobs · 10-12-2004 11:03am

Yeah,

With the drill hole you are taking water at say 12 degrees straight to the heat exchange, with the loop system if the ground is at 12 the solution in the loop has to take its heat from the ground loosing some heat in that transfer and then bring it to the exchange. Also I think the water in the ground will also be a couple of degrees higher than the ground itself.

Was told all this by a guy at Plan expo. Can't remember the name of his company right now but have it at home, I will post it up later.

slayer92 · 20-12-2004 11:45pm

Its a long time since your orginal post, but maybe you should think about aerothermal system from Sweco This takes the latent heat from the ambient air passes it through the heat pump/exchanger to heat a 500l water tank. This tank acts as the source for the heating system and domectic hot water.
Has seen in action and works very well. No expensive ground works!!!

Regards

Slayer92

qazxsw · 21-12-2004 10:45am

Better late than never, some heatpump and underfloor related links, ...

http://www.ahac.ie/
http://www.aquatech.ie/
http://www.ashgrove.ie/
http://www.energymaster.ie/
http://www.eurotech-heating.com/
http://www.glas.ie/index.html
http://www.gtsireland.co.uk/
http://www.underfloorheatingireland.com/index.html
http://www.heatpumpcentre.org/
http://www.avenir-energie.com/english/acceuil/frame.htm
http://www.solterra.ie/index.htm (Dunstar)
http://www.pet.ie/index.htm
http://www.sweco.ie/

fearrchair · 22-12-2004 10:48pm

Another link to someone who installs Nibe Heatpumps in Ireland and Unipipe Underfloor heating.

www.eil.ie

I am currently in discussions with him with the intention of installing Geothermal Heating and underfloor heating.

My electrician brought me to see a dunstar but it was installed in a garage and sounded like a generator. The Nibe Heatpump could be installed inside a house and is no louder that a fridge. I've see one working that he installed recently as my electrician thought I was mad to try and install inside a house.

I believe that the Nibe pump is computer controlled and just works away switching off when the a basic room thermostat reaches the temperature etc while other heatpumps need controllers at each room location.

I stand to be corrected and it could all be a sales pitch that I was told all this when he visited the house some weeks ago. I've yet to get a quote from him apparantly everyone wants to get in for Christmam....but expect it to be about €9K to buy then theres installation which I not sure will cost.

Theres also something else that is bothering me and that is a story that I heard from plumber that someone installed a geothermal system and had to put in oil 8 months later as the heating failed and the ground surrounding the collector pipes was supposed to be gone to dust and blowing away in the wind. Does anyone know what effect the heat running in and out of these pipes can do to the soil conditions ? The only thing that I am telling myself is that this person was told that his soil wasn't suitable but went ahead anyway, so I suppose he has no one to blame but himself but you'd think they wouldn't have installed it.

Installing a geothermal is a big decision to make to install, and costly if it doesn't work or give trouble.

yop · 23-12-2004 10:38am

"I believe that the Nibe pump is computer controlled and just works away switching off when the a basic room thermostat reaches the temperature etc while other heatpumps need controllers at each room location."

Don't know where he is getting this, the heatpump does not rely on thermostats in each room. Your heat pump will run until your buffer tank/thermal store is filled, this can be a 200 or 300 litre tank.
Maybe he was on about you UFH, this can be controlled by one thermostat or a thermostat in each room.

I did not find a noise issue with the heat pump from Dunstar. Admittadly his was outside the backdoor but even when it was on there was little noise from it.
Some companies will install inside the house, others outside the house.

I did not hear that one about the ground drying out.

luckat · 07-01-2005 4:26pm

I can't understand why one couldn't run the pipes up and down the outside of the house and cover them with exterior plaster. Surely that would be a better idea?

yop · 08-01-2005 11:40pm

"I can't understand why one couldn't run the pipes up and down the outside of the house and cover them with exterior plaster. Surely that would be a better idea?"

So you are saying to cover your house with pipes and plaster over them?? Where would you get the heat from???
I presume you are messing with that suggestion

jayo99 · 09-03-2005 12:07pm

Yop.. How can I get in contact with u?
Would be interested in getting that excel sheet from ya :-)

yop · 09-03-2005 12:39pm

PM me Jay ur email address and I will send it to you

joseph brand · 13-03-2005 5:14pm

Slightly off the subject of Geothermal heating, Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion(OTEC).

I don't think most boards members have heard of this form of renewable energy.

It is as well known as Geo heating.

For anyone interested for their own knowledge, as it is not usable/feasable for the Irish, link is here:
OTEC

thetourist · 14-03-2005 2:07am

mmm - interesting topic - but i just scanned it so forgive me if i've missed something - just delivering my experiences in case they're of any benefit to anyone

i just moved in last night to my new house which is heated by a ground source heat pump. first off i can advise is that ( in my case anyway ) - it works .. however the underfloor heating part of the system takes a bit of tweaking to get the temperature to where you're comfortable with it --- at least i've heard this from friends with it too

the company i went with was ecoheat from carlow - colum lawlor is the boss and his number is 087 2568791. the system was sort of expensive 18k plus installation for a house of about 2300 sqft. but that included underfloor heating and a pretty imressive hot water system too. that was one of the reasons we went with them is that they were the only company which addressed the issue of hot water properly. heat pumps dont get really hot, so they can only heat water to a certain temperature. put that together with a standard size cylinder and a large bath and a deluge shower and you've got a problem, especially if you have a big family or lots of people wanting showers at the same time - so we spent about 4k extra on this 500L insulated hot water cylinder with it's own special heat pump which can heat the water to 55deg cent -- some of the other systems were actually relying on an imersion ( which is not the kind of house we wanted to live in ) -- plus we get hot water 24 7 even during the summer ( i know it's a bit of a luxury but what the heck !! ) - oh and seing as the cylinder is pressurisable we put a pump on it an pressurised the plumbing too - no need for shower pumps

our heat pump is situated outside and ive heard some companies have pretty loud pumps which are situated in the utility room

i would advise ecoheat - they spend ages with you answering your questions etc which is good in this new area - also one of the directors, fritz has been working with heat pumps for many years in austria

in our system there are no room controllers, you set the temp using the manifold manually. some other companies make a big deal about being able to set all the rooms to special temperatures - i think it's not really necessary - i mean i dont care whether my hall is exactly 2 degrees colder than my kitchen !!

also on our system we have night rate electricity - and the system is set to a lower then required temp during the day and a higher than required at night so the system generally draws power on cheap rate

if i were doing the system diy the one area to NOT mess up is the heat loss calculations -- if you get these wrong you are screwed as you may have to take up your collectors and replace them or something nasty like that - we got an 18 kw system btw ( which can handle a bit of an extension i think )

hope this has been of some benefit to someone - pm me if you need any info

ps i cant understand ---- is the govt asleep?? - why on earth is there no grant for this stuff --- and how much was that fine we had to pay to kyoto last year ?????? ........... a bit irish

yop · 14-03-2005 10:51am

Thanks for the info lad, that seems like a good price @ 18k for UFH and Geo, does that include the presurrised cylinder (Is it a thermal store)???

Are you sure it is an 18kw heat pump, I have got in roughly 10 quotes for a 2100sq ft house and the max pump they recommend is 12kw.

What sort of electric bill are you running?
How long does it run for at nite?
Does it mean you have constant heat in the UFH and hot water on demand?
I presume it is a brine system you have in?

Cheers

Doper Than U · 14-03-2005 3:29pm

That's very interesting Bob, I a pretty much certainly going to go for geothermal heating, but I was concerned with the hot water issue, as I don't like the immersion type set up either. I'm also one of those people that likes to have the heating on more that I should, so I need to know that it's going to be able to really get the house toasty and warm.
Anybody know if it's possible to mix geothermal and wood pellet systems (as a kind of back up/supplement to the geo) or am I going for overkill?

qazxsw · 14-03-2005 3:38pm

I think you can go for a dual coil buffer tank with some systems, one coil supplying heat from the geothermal and the other coil supplying heat from the open fire with back boiler, stove with boiler, oil boiler, gas boiler, etc.

These obviously cost a bit more - check out heat merchants for stainless steel cylinder prices

Geo Theromal Heating

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