BUDGET 2012

Stiffler2 · 16-11-2011 5:34pm

Suryavarman wrote: »

The reason our economy is in a depression is not because of high savings. It is because of bad investments caused by an expansion of credit going tits up. If you had any concept of economics you would know that a higher savings rate is a good thing. People save in order to invest in capital goods, which will create jobs and cause the economy to grow.

If cannabis is legalised why would the amount spent on it rise? In other countries when drugs are decriminalised the amount of drug users has fallen. The cost of drugs also falls because new suppliers come into the market.

I like the idea of legalizing it for revenue. Have a look at this site :
http://www.canorml.org/background/CA_legalization2.html

It shows that California or Amsterdam generated between €12 - €18 billion euro a year.
You also have to take into account tourism & how many tourists would flock to Ireland to smoke which would boost the tourism sector, create jobs etc etc.. bla bla bla

Edit : this figure includes everything from the tax on weed & all the spin offs industries etc, not just the sale of weed.

Amirani · 16-11-2011 5:36pm

Suryavarman wrote: »

The reason our economy is in a depression is not because of high savings. It is because of bad investments caused by an expansion of credit going tits up. If you had any concept of economics you would know that a higher savings rate is a good thing. People save in order to invest in capital goods, which will create jobs and cause the economy to grow.

High savings is a good things during inflationary times, not during recessions. No matter what our savings rate is, there will be a shortage of loanable funds because our banks aren't loaning money for investment purposes. Economic growth is a function of consumption, investment, government spending and international trade. Having a high savings rate right now is negatively impacting all of them.

I'd recommend a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule_savings_rate

Keynes' view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics#Excessive_saving

SeaFields · 16-11-2011 6:18pm

Get rid of the internship scheme. If a business is busy enough to warrant an extra member of staff let them hire someone and pay wages which will end up in the economy.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 16-11-2011 6:24pm

Galtee wrote: »

Huh?

The person I quoted feels entitled to clean water. He feels that somebody else should clean it and he should have to pay for it... which is laughable.

Suryavarman wrote: »

The reason our economy is in a depression is not because of high savings. It is because of bad investments caused by an expansion of credit going tits up. If you had any concept of economics you would know that a higher savings rate is a good thing. People save in order to invest in capital goods, which will create jobs and cause the economy to grow.

If cannabis is legalised why would the amount spent on it rise? In other countries when drugs are decriminalised the amount of drug users has fallen. The cost of drugs also falls because new suppliers come into the market.

Legalised and decriminalisation are not the same things.

Suryavarman · 16-11-2011 6:43pm

Terry wrote: »

Voice of reason.
Now you may not agree with this, but PSRI and PAYE should be brought back to 1980's levels.

It will only be a short term measure, but will help to get us back on our feet.

Having high taxes was a sh*t idea in the eighties and it's a sh*t idea now.

Stiffler2 wrote: »

I like the idea of legalizing it for revenue. Have a look at this site :
http://www.canorml.org/background/CA_legalization2.html

It shows that California or Amsterdam generated between €12 - €18 billion euro a year.
You also have to take into account tourism & how many tourists would flock to Ireland to smoke which would boost the tourism sector, create jobs etc etc.. bla bla bla

Edit : this figure includes everything from the tax on weed & all the spin offs industries etc, not just the sale of weed.

I'm all in favour of legalising it and any extra vat that can close the deficit is welcome. I was just pointing out that the amount Irish people spend on cannabis would more than likely fall if it was legalised.

It's also debatable whether cannabis tourism would make up for that decrease in spending. The increase in tourism probably wouldn't be as big as you would think either. We'd be competing with Holland for tourists and it is questionable whether Ireland is a more attractive destination than Amsterdam. It's also likely that California will try legalise it again and succeed withing the next couple of years. So personally I don't buy the argument that legalising cannabis will give a huge tourism boost.

niallsparky wrote: »

High savings is a good things during inflationary times, not during recessions. No matter what our savings rate is, there will be a shortage of loanable funds because our banks aren't loaning money for investment purposes. Economic growth is a function of consumption, investment, government spending and international trade. Having a high savings rate right now is negatively impacting all of them.

I'd recommend a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule_savings_rate

Keynes' view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics#Excessive_saving

CIG is negatively affected now by a high savings rate so that it can be higher in the future when those savings are spent/invested.

If I were to take all the money that somebody was saving, to start a business or put a deposit on a new house, out of their bank account and start buying them a nice new TV and clothes and maybe get a better Sky package, are they better off? Sure they have loads of nice new things but what about that new home or business? People accepting lower living standards today in order to enjoy higher living standards in the future might not make sense to the clueless Keynesians but it does make sense to people with common sense.

Johanna Enough Student wrote: »

Legalised and decriminalisation are not the same things.

I am aware of that but we won't cry over spilled milk. The results of both courses of action are the same.

the groutch · 16-11-2011 7:38pm

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I think you should have a TV licence for each telly you own, that way the rich in society would have to pay for all the tellys they bought during the boom. Also, since larger tellys use more eletricity, they should have an incremantal licence system as per size of telly, therefore those with carbon gobbling 42" tellys would pay a percent more than those with an eco friendly 32"er.

I'd like to see the tv licence replaced with a tax on every new telly, and the bigger the telly, the bigger higher the tax

btw, if they were to legalise cannabis, I'd still like to see at some basic regulation, not just anyone being able to walk into Spar/Centra to buy it and start puffing away the second they step outside.

BOHtox · 16-11-2011 8:23pm

Cut, cut, cut and privatise. No need for any additional tax. I'd be in favour of water charges if there was a fair free amount for every family depending on size and you pay for what you use over that.

Apart from that, we won't fill the deficit by cutting back and raising tax. The easiest way to do so is by creating jobs. I'd be in favour of cutting 4.3 billion and use the 500m to create jobs.

Also, if there will be a tax increase, don't go anywhere near Corporation tax. I'd be in favour of reducing it to 10%. We have a choice in this country. We don't get the best of both worlds. You can have Corporation Tax or you can have Jobs. I'd prefer jobs myself.

irishgeo · 16-11-2011 8:27pm

the tv licence is being reviewed anyway as you can watch all your tv on the internet without the need for a tv.

My name is URL · 16-11-2011 8:45pm

irishgeo wrote: »

the tv licence is being reviewed anyway as you can watch all your tv on the internet without the need for a tv.

Currently, if you have the Internet at home you 'should' have a TV license.. even if you do not own a TV.

Under Section 9-

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on 40
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

http://193.178.1.235/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/B29c08D.pdf

Galtee · 16-11-2011 9:07pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Currently, if you have the Internet at home you 'should' have a TV license.. even if you do not own a TV.

Under Section 9-

http://193.178.1.235/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/B29c08D.pdf

Only if your puter has a signal receiver in it. If it doesn't then you're grand.

talktojesus · 17-11-2011 2:55am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lts2RScbndA

LighterGuy · 17-11-2011 3:02am

I dont think the government will go mad on alcohol. But they definitely will hit the smokes hard.

I also expect an 8-10 euro drop on social welfare payments. Its already 188 per week for anyone on the full whack. So I expect that to be 180. Also, rent allowance will get hit too. Probably down 5 euro or something.

LighterGuy · 17-11-2011 3:07am

My name is URL wrote: »

Currently, if you have the Internet at home you 'should' have a TV license.. even if you do not own a TV.

Under Section 9-

http://193.178.1.235/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/B29c08D.pdf

Thats a bad thing if its brought into effect officially.
I think that would open the door for Broadband/Internet tax down the line.

Agent Smith · 17-11-2011 3:16am

I'd Means Test everything going.
Dole,Children's allowance, Single Mother Payments, Medical Cards

Invest money in a system where you are encouraged to report people commiting benifits fraud

OR

(and someone please, explain why this isnt a plan)

1. I'd lower corp tax to 11% for any company employing 200 or more
2. I'd lower corp tax to 10% for any company employing 500 or more
3 I'd lower corp tax to 8% for any company employing 1000 or more
4. I'd lower corp tax to 5% for any company employing 5000 or more

Simples!

chasm · 17-11-2011 3:22am

LighterGuy wrote: »

I dont think the government will go mad on alcohol. But they definitely will hit the smokes hard.

I also expect an 8-10 euro drop on social welfare payments. Its already 188 per week for anyone on the full whack. So I expect that to be 180. Also, rent allowance will get hit too. Probably down 5 euro or something.

The Govt claim there will be no cuts to basic social welfare rate, all other payments will be up for grabs though i'd say. They are meant to be moving rent allowance over to the councils aren't they? I'd say it will be cut by more than €5 tbh.

LighterGuy · 17-11-2011 3:26am

Agent Smith wrote: »

I'd Means Test everything going.
Dole,Children's allowance, Single Mother Payments, Medical Cards

Well, all the above is already means tested

But somehow i think you mean 'means test' them further and take more away from them :pac:

What about someone who lost their job. Trying to another. Paying the bills is already hard for them on the dole. So we what, cut their dole more and completely slash their medical card? ... doesnt sound like a truly positive way forward.

Squall19 · 17-11-2011 3:43am

Stinicker wrote: »

I myself am afraid DIRT would raise also so I pooled my savings which were spread thin here and there before lodging them with PTSB at 10% over 26months, result I got a nice fat cheque and while I was going to use the interest cheque to buy a new car I have decided against and instead lodged it back in to a different account.

We need to reward people who are making the effort and no bailout those cretins who got sucked into the borrowed money mortgage ponzi scheme.

How much did you put in?

400k.

You gave the goverment 10.5k in dirt tax.

Would it not have been better to get a cheap flight to Luxembourg or some other country and opened an account there?

http://www.interest-rates.org.uk/sample_USD.htm

Shattered Dreamer · 17-11-2011 3:44am

I'm kind of surprised nobody has brought up possible introduction of higher college fees (between €5500-€6000 a year) & college maintenance grants being cut 40%. I like Agent Smiths corporation tax idea even if the EU would hit the roof in a rage. My only problem is if you legalize cannabis the government would have to put extra money into mental health care to deal with the side effects. I'm not anti cannabis but you can't act like it being as accessible to the ordinary Joe Soap as alcohol would be a positive.

the groutch · 17-11-2011 10:39am

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

I'm kind of surprised nobody has brought up possible introduction of higher college fees (between €5500-€6000 a year) & college maintenance grants being cut 40%.

college fees wouldnt be needed if they cut the rediculous salaries of both college lecturers, and high end administrators

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 17-11-2011 11:54am

Suryavarman wrote: »

I am aware of that but we won't cry over spilled milk. The results of both courses of action are the same.

Lol no they are not. They are completely different. The results are completely different... you're having an Giraffe mate...

My name is URL wrote: »

Currently, if you have the Internet at home you 'should' have a TV license.. even if you do not own a TV.

Under Section 9-

http://193.178.1.235/documents/bills28/bills/2008/2908/B29c08D.pdf

This is not true.

Morrisseeee · 17-11-2011 12:01pm

Ah yes property tax, a bit ironic really, after the property boom/bust, and the good auld reliable, the tax-payer bends down (again) and says "please sir, can i have some more", while the financial regulator, politicians, bankers et al walk away with fat pensions.

Stiffler2 · 17-11-2011 12:13pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ah yes property tax, a bit ironic really, after the property boom/bust, and the good auld reliable, the tax-payer bends down (again) and says "please sir, can i have some more", while the financial regulator, politicians, bankers et al walk away with fat pensions.

The only way that will ever get sorted is through an Irish Revoltuion overthrowing government or via a referendum which the governement would never do.

I mean, if you could set your own salary how much would you pay yourself ?

foxyboxer · 17-11-2011 12:14pm

Agent Smith wrote: »

I'd Means Test everything going.
Dole,Children's allowance, Single Mother Payments, Medical Cards

Invest money in a system where you are encouraged to report people commiting benifits fraud

OR

(and someone please, explain why this isnt a plan)

1. I'd lower corp tax to 11% for any company employing 200 or more
2. I'd lower corp tax to 10% for any company employing 500 or more
3 I'd lower corp tax to 8% for any company employing 1000 or more
4. I'd lower corp tax to 5% for any company employing 5000 or more

Simples!

If there was a financial incentive for reporting people then this could work.
For example, you get a cut if they are convicted or a standard 'referral fee'.

Double edged sword though as you should be fined for wasting Revenue's time if it's not proven.

melekalikimaka · 17-11-2011 12:15pm

the groutch wrote: »

college fees wouldnt be needed if they cut the rediculous salaries of both college lecturers, and high end administrators

we cant afford free fees, an introduction of a loan system would solve this

irish_stevo815 · 17-11-2011 12:22pm

melekalikimaka wrote: »

we cant afford free fees, an introduction of a loan system would solve this

There is a loan system - getting screwed by the banks

Shattered Dreamer · 17-11-2011 12:27pm

the groutch wrote: »

college fees wouldnt be needed if they cut the rediculous salaries of both college lecturers, and high end administrators

Yeah & this is made worse by the fact some of the college presidents support the fees for example the President of UCC. Whatever about water fees, social welfare cuts, more tax on smokes & a minimum price for alcohol it is these changes to college fees & grants that will have the most detrimental effect on this country as a large percentage of our young people will have to leave to Ireland. If I was a betting man I'd bet quite a few who leave won't return either.

Minister Ruairi Quinn blames the EU & the IMF for the potential fee rise saying "Ireland has no control over it's cheque book". Notwithstanding that our politicians need to see that this fee raise damages the future of this country & they need to stand up to the bullies in Europe because you can't grow an economy for the future with under educated people.

ArmaniJeanss · 17-11-2011 12:31pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Fianna Fail lowered betting tax in the early 2000's from 10% to 1%. The 1% raises 30 million, if increased back to 10 it would raise an 270 million euro.

Betting tax is actually 2% at the moment so your figures are way off.
You would also lose at the 'corporation tax' side. Say I have €100 to spend in the bookies on a Saturday regardless of what the tax is - if you increase the tax then by definition the gambling proportion of that €100 is lower hence the bookies profit is lower so he pays less tax.

Though even more likely what would happen is a sizeable proportion of gamblers would use UK based on-line bookmakers and pay 0% tax (perfectly legal to do this in the open EU market by the way)

So I doubt your increase to 10% betting tax would lead to any revenue increase at all.

Blazer · 17-11-2011 12:49pm

There was a good piece in the journal yesterday about student fees.
Basically both sides need to cop on...students need to pay for their fees but governments should realize that investment in education leads to increased taxes etc over a lifespan.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-time-to-end-this-ridiculous-student-fees-stalemate/

My plan would be fair on both.
Introduce student fees for 3rd level college. However have a loan system in place so that after students get a job after they qualify they can start repaying it back.
For the duration of the loan the value of their repayments would be deducted from their paye tax etc so they're not getting hammered on tax + loan repayments.
Once loan is repaid taxes would return to their normal rate (obviously you'd need a specific loan term in to avoid abuse)
so this way the student pays for his education but the government recognizes that getting a job brings taxes back into their coffers.
I'm not sure how emigrating students would be affected but I'm sure someone could figure this out.

Students need to realize there's no such thing as free education past secondary school. If you want to better yourself then you're doing it for your benefit and as such you should pay for this.
Governments need to realize without a strongly educated workforce Ireland's days are numbered and tax takes will get lower and lower.

Galtee · 17-11-2011 12:58pm

Sc@recrow wrote: »

There was a good piece in the journal yesterday about student fees.
Basically both sides need to cop on...students need to pay for their fees but governments should realize that investment in education leads to increased taxes etc over a lifespan.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-time-to-end-this-ridiculous-student-fees-stalemate/

My plan would be fair on both.
Introduce student fees for 3rd level college. However have a loan system in place so that after students get a job after they qualify they can start repaying it back.
For the duration of the loan the value of their repayments would be deducted from their paye tax etc so they're not getting hammered on tax + loan repayments.
Once loan is repaid taxes would return to their normal rate (obviously you'd need a specific loan term in to avoid abuse)
so this way the student pays for his education but the government recognizes that getting a job brings taxes back into their coffers.
I'm not sure how emigrating students would be affected but I'm sure someone could figure this out.

Students need to realize there's no such thing as free education past secondary school. If you want to better yourself then you're doing it for your benefit and as such you should pay for this.
Governments need to realize without a strongly educated workforce Ireland's days are numbered and tax takes will get lower and lower.

There is in Germany and it's paid for out of the exchequer. I don't know the ins and outs and I know they pay for other stuff etc. but I'm just saying they somehow manage it over there but then they seem to be able to run their country properly.

Shattered Dreamer · 17-11-2011 1:11pm

Sc@recrow wrote: »

There was a good piece in the journal yesterday about student fees.
Basically both sides need to cop on...students need to pay for their fees but governments should realize that investment in education leads to increased taxes etc over a lifespan.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-time-to-end-this-ridiculous-student-fees-stalemate/

My plan would be fair on both.
Introduce student fees for 3rd level college. However have a loan system in place so that after students get a job after they qualify they can start repaying it back.
For the duration of the loan the value of their repayments would be deducted from their paye tax etc so they're not getting hammered on tax + loan repayments.
Once loan is repaid taxes would return to their normal rate (obviously you'd need a specific loan term in to avoid abuse)
so this way the student pays for his education but the government recognizes that getting a job brings taxes back into their coffers.
I'm not sure how emigrating students would be affected but I'm sure someone could figure this out.

Students need to realize there's no such thing as free education past secondary school. If you want to better yourself then you're doing it for your benefit and as such you should pay for this.
Governments need to realize without a strongly educated workforce Ireland's days are numbered and tax takes will get lower and lower.

I'm actually inclined to agree with you. A big problem with the "Occupy" generation is that they (I won't say we) expect everything for nothing. I noticed this especially back in college, spoilt brats completely inapt when it came to doing anything for themselves. I come from a working class background & my family scraped together the fees (which I've since paid them back in full) to send me to private college, which cost around €6000 a year (3 year course This makes it a little weird for me when people complain about 6 grand a year fees but I do support them against them but for different reasons. If this fee rise happens my younger sister might not be able to go to college because my parents could simply no longer afford it. Taking on more debt isn't an option either since they had to, like a lot of people, restructure payments on their mortgage.

But with the government being slaves to Europe & the IMF & the attitude of the "Occupy" generation this budget & a few to come will be tough for us all.One of the hardest lesson I've learned is that a college education doesn't guarantee a job but I feel it made me a better person.

mcriot29 · 18-11-2011 5:32pm

What do you think will happen in regards to gift tax and cat tax also dwelling house tax

Mr Benevolent · 18-11-2011 5:42pm

Sex tax. Dependant on position. Tax rebate for just holding hands and thinking of Enda.

county man · 22-11-2011 1:46pm

I have heard that the government are considering introducing an air tax where every person in the country will have an air regulator fitted and will be charged on the amount of air that they breathe.Those who can hold their breath the longest will pay less.

county man · 22-11-2011 1:52pm

Confab wrote: »

Sex tax. Dependant on position. Tax rebate for just holding hands and thinking of Enda.

Would there be a higher tax rate for missionary position than for doggy style?

hardybuck · 22-11-2011 2:03pm

Areas I would like to see examined:

Means test Child Allowance. Miriam O'Callagan does not need the €1,332 she is entitled to each month. Cut by 10% across the board, followed by introducing a new sliding scale of benefit tied to the household annual income, and abolish where household income is in excess of €150k per annum.
Means test OAP entitlements. Unpopular but necessary in my book. A retired couple at present may claim a state pension of €460 between them. Add that to free travel, medical cards, no TV license, possible private pension, mortgage paid off and no children - you can see they are better off than a large proportion of society.
Overhaul of TV License system. As the employer collects PAYE on behalf of the Government, the cable television providers should be collecting TV License. Increase the income on licenses, reduce Government spending on RTE and inspectors.
Cuts to RTE salaries. The Top 10 earners are paid a total of €3.95m, so I think moderate cuts across the board here should bring in a couple of million easily.
Cut Foreign Aid: Ireland currently spends over €600m annually here. Sorry guys - we're broke too...
The Seanad: Costs the taxpayer approx €30m per year, or €50,000 for each hour it sits. CUT!
Cut Rent Supplement: Are these artifically keeping our rental costs high?
College Fees: Put a cap on 'registration fees' as they stand, and collect a small % of graduates income for the first 10 years they work in Ireland.
Capital Expenditure: Proposed €750m cut seems reasonable

Possible measures to encourage employment:

Retain current Home Energy grant system. Huge return on the €100m per annum I think it costs.
Introduct a similar scheme to the above for small and medium businesses. Would help SME's save money and hopefully help stay afloat, and create more jobs in the construction sector.

Have I reached the €3.5 billion figure yet?

Tigger · 22-11-2011 2:48pm

Biggins wrote: »

Expect a minimum set price for certain types of alcohol sales.

expect me to drive to enniskillen with a trailer once a year

Sin City · 22-11-2011 3:49pm

Hi guys just registered here ,

Anyway some good and downright funny ideas for saving this country money
Here is another suggestion the legalisation of escorts. Now this could be seen as something negative but if you look at it in terms of financial gain then it does make sense. Look at the amount of exposes in the papers in the media. There are loads of escorts working and they are working tax free, some if the figures I have been reading are accurate are earning up to around 500 a day.

The only thing is like the legailisation of cannibis it would be hard for people to swallow but surely it would help the country.

The take from this could help those on social welfare avoid the expected 8 euro cuts. Just an idea

WoollyRedHat · 22-11-2011 4:43pm

mcriot29 wrote: »

What do you think will happen in regards to gift tax and cat tax also dwelling house tax

If there is a cat tax then they need to bring a dog tax...
Actually is there a zoo tax, maybe there should be a zoo tax...

LighterGuy · 22-11-2011 5:49pm

hardybuck wrote: »

[*]Means test OAP entitlements. Unpopular but necessary in my book. A retired couple at present may claim a state pension of €460 between them. Add that to free travel, medical cards, no TV license, possible private pension, mortgage paid off and no children - you can see they are better off than a large proportion of society.

Now dude you made a few other good points in your post. But this statement just over shadows everything because its bloody terrible! :mad:

"ahh, go after the OAP's.. means thest em' so we can take money away from them" - thats right take money away from people who spent their lives working and paying tax :rolleyes: After all the average OAP isnt on some fat pension ... they're on a sh*te one. But sure they get everything else for "free" so lets get into them?

KindOfIrish · 22-11-2011 5:59pm

woodoo wrote: »

Fat tax, sugar tax. what next.... broccolli tax?

Tax tax. €1 tax for every €100 of income tax

Knine · 22-11-2011 6:04pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Someone mentioned a tax on text messages. Very good idea.

I already pay tax on my phone bill

Thanks very much

draiochtanois · 22-11-2011 6:07pm

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs · 22-11-2011 6:55pm

LighterGuy wrote: »

"ahh, go after the OAP's.. means thest em' so we can take money away from them" - thats right take money away from people who spent their lives working and paying tax :rolleyes: After all the average OAP isnt on some fat pension ... they're on a sh*te one. But sure they get everything else for "free" so lets get into them?

Oh I defo see your point LG, but I do think it should be means tested. One of my uncles is worth millions and has three homes around the world and regularly hires a yacht to piss off around the Aegean. A widowed neighbour of mine had a part time job while she raised her kids, owns her house but has a disabled daughter she still cares for. Both get the state pension. There's something wrong in that imbalance IMHO. There should be a cutoff point. Hell even a 100,000 a year earnings cut off point. Though 50,000 PA would be more like it. Retired couple no mortgage? 50,000 is more than enough.

hardybuck · 22-11-2011 7:26pm

LighterGuy wrote: »

Now dude you made a few other good points in your post. But this statement just over shadows everything because its bloody terrible! :mad:

"ahh, go after the OAP's.. means thest em' so we can take money away from them" - thats right take money away from people who spent their lives working and paying tax :rolleyes: After all the average OAP isnt on some fat pension ... they're on a sh*te one. But sure they get everything else for "free" so lets get into them?

Well think about it. OAP's get a very generous package. A retired couple as I point out may get €460 per week just on the pension. When you add the free travel, medical card, no TV license, fuel relief etc. This is just basic state subsidy, before you come to the better off who will have private pensions, AVC's and perhaps savings built up.

No kids or mortgage most likely either, so a serious amount of disposable income there. Compared to someone who is 10-15 years younger, they may be far better off.

Means testing ensures that the money trickles down to those who need it. My multimillionaire neighbour may get a portion of what he is entitled to now, but it might ensure that his less successful brother who lives on his own a mile up the road will be looked after.

mickydoomsux · 22-11-2011 7:35pm

Every single benefit given out by the state should be rigorously means tested.

Not everyone should be "entitled" by default because not everyone has the need.

hardybuck · 22-11-2011 7:39pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Every single benefit given out by the state should be rigorously means tested.

Not everyone should be "entitled" by default because not everyone has the need.

Impractical. We simply wouldn't have the resources to do this.

mickydoomsux · 22-11-2011 7:41pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Impractical. We simply wouldn't have the resources to do this.

I thought the public sector was supposed to be drastically over staffed and the money saved in the long term through reduced payments would make such an initiative pay for itself.

Wibbs · 22-11-2011 7:50pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

I thought the public sector was supposed to be drastically over staffed and the money saved in the long term through reduced payments would make such an initiative pay for itself.

Great in theory Micky but the tax office isn't even cross connected with the state benefits office. The way things stand currently I'd not trust those various hammerheads to get it right. The whole kit and kaboodle needs a shakeup. Cue many stupid quangos and more wasted money. Look at how long post codes have been discussed by various panels full of dribbling gibbons. While there are hard workers and very smart people in our PS, too often they're ignored and the overall service is populated by one too many idiot sons of idiot sons and less organisation than a box of broken plates. Pissup in a brewery springs readily, while wasting millions if not billions in the effort.

chasm · 22-11-2011 7:57pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Well think about it. OAP's get a very generous package. A retired couple as I point out may get €460 per week just on the pension. When you add the free travel, medical card, no TV license, fuel relief etc. This is just basic state subsidy, before you come to the better off who will have private pensions, AVC's and perhaps savings built up.

I just had a quick look at the contributary and non-contributary rates of payment and don't see any for a couple that amount to €460. Where did you get this rate from?

I see the papers reporting that Joan Burton has been examining ways to compensate those on low income if child benefit is cut.(which i suppose means what they did before, increase the child dependent rate on weekly payments) When they cut the electricity allowance for OAPs and those on disability i don't recall them "compensating" those claimants on low income. Fair budget my eye!

hardybuck · 22-11-2011 8:20pm

chasm wrote: »

I just had a quick look at the contributary and non-contributary rates of payment and don't see any for a couple that amount to €460. Where did you get this rate from?

I see the papers reporting that Joan Burton has been examining ways to compensate those on low income if child benefit is cut.(which i suppose means what they did before, increase the child dependent rate on weekly payments) When they cut the electricity allowance for OAPs and those on disability i don't recall them "compensating" those claimants on low income. Fair budget my eye!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_contributory.html

Take a look at rates toward the end there.

BUDGET 2012

Comments