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Problems with Direct Debit

  • 02-02-2012 6:01pm
    #1
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭


    My IPSO complaint has been escalated. Should have my refund very soon.

    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.

    I tell her that I already filled in the form today. She sayd that was grand and it should hit her desk in the morning. I ask her two questions <paraphrasing> "How long after you receive the document until I get my money" and "Have you heard from IPSO".

    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Head hits wall many times and tell her to expect a call.


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    My IPSO complaint has been escalated. Should have my refund very soon.

    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.

    I tell her that I already filled in the form today. She sayd that was grand and it should hit her desk in the morning. I ask her two questions <paraphrasing> "How long after you receive the document until I get my money" and "Have you heard from IPSO".

    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Head hits wall many times and tell her to expect a call.



    Some food for thought:
    Direct Debit is normally considered as the most efficient method of payment for recurring payments. There are considerable benefits for all participants in the Scheme: for Originators, Payers, and Banks.
    If it is established that an unauthorised Direct Debit was charged to your account, you are
    guaranteed an immediate refund by your Bank of the amount so charged     where you notify your Bank without undue delay on becoming aware of the unauthorised Direct Debit

    The above is a quote from the so called dd guarantee which is provided by your BANK!!!!!!

    In the light of the fiasco that you have experienced from your bank and Three how can anyone accept the dd scheme as being fit for purpose?

    How could any intelligent person put any trust in such a mess?
    The Direct Debit Scheme depends upon mutual trust between all parties concerned.

    All quotes are taken from the direct debit scheme rules which a customer should surely be able to take for granted that senior staff in banks and in companies' billing departments will be very familiar with.

    I am sure you will enjoy this one too: (from the IPSO Annual Review 2010!)

    IPSO continues to work very closely with sponsoring banks
    and originators to ensure that all complaints and
    compliance issues are responded to in a timely and
    satisfactory manner

    I wonder when they will get around to issuing Bank of Ireland with a briefing on the so called DD guarantee?


  • #3
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    RangeR wrote: »
    Literally, minutes after IPSO escalated my complaint, I get a phone call from BOI. Wow I thought. That's fast. She says she is from BOI Accounts department. She asked me to give her a quick rundown of my issue. This must be the 10th time I have told my story to BOI in the past 2 or 3 days. She then asked me to go into a BOI branch to fill in a form. Oh no. I just knew this was going to go down hill from here. She hasn't heard from IPSO. I don't know who referred her to me.
    "2 to 3 weeks, depending on when 3 refund the bank" and "No" where here answers.

    Received a call, 50 minutes ago, from this same woman in the accounts department. Her manager told her to refund me today. She said it may be within the hour but definitely today.

    Thank you IPSO for your intervention.

    Partial Result.

    When refund comes through, to push forward with formal complaint to FinReg.


  • #4
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Refund has hit my account


  • #5
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Hmmm, there has been absolutely no feedback, whatsoever on my formal complaints from either IPSO nor BOI. BOI's complaints procedure does state, however, that they will acknowledge a complaint within five business days. That five business days ends on Thursday. I'm not sure of IPSO's complaint procedure but I'll give them the standard ten business days to respond.


  • #6
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Hmmm, there has been absolutely no feedback, whatsoever on my formal complaints from either IPSO nor BOI. BOI's complaints procedure does state, however, that they will acknowledge a complaint within five business days. That five business days ends on Thursday. I'm not sure of IPSO's complaint procedure but I'll give them the standard ten business days to respond.

    Please keep us up to date on 'progress'.

    Your experiences to date show what a woeful system the dd is from the billpayer's point of view.

    The complaint's system is simply an old pals' act where nothing ever happens.

    The lack of transparency in the system is quite shocking.
    IRECC will investigate the issue on your behalf, and will always respond to you within 7 working days.

    http://www.ipso.ie/section/x/File/Direct%20Debit/DD_Complaints_Procedure_Final.pdf

    Its amazing to think that the dd system has been in place since 1967 and a major bank doesn't know how to respond to one of the basic entitlements in the so called dd guarantee. How does one go about complaining about such a farce?


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  • #7
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Since my two formal complaints, one to each I PSO and BOI, so far it's been [in business days]...

    IPSO : 6 business days [4 days left to acknowledge]
    BOI : 5 business days. They should have acknowledged my complaint by today. Nothing in the post and no phone calls received.

    I rang BOI complaints department and spoke to the woman, Rep 1, I made the initial complaint with. She was shocked that I hadn't received any correspondence. The person [relevant department] that she referred me to, Rep 2, was out sick for a day or two but she then referred Rep 3 to deal with the issue. Rep 2 confirmed to Rep 1 that this referral had happened and that I should have received a call on Monday.

    Rep 1 is chasing this up.

    * Real names not included as per charter.


  • #8
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Jesus ****ing Christ, Bank of Ireland BOI have no idea what they are doing. I just received a call from Rep 5 to discuss my complaint. In one way, tried to lead the conversation saying that I have been refunded so would I like to close the complaint!!!!

    The other issue of the complaint, she says, is how the BOI 365 staff were unable to help, or even know about, the Direct Debit Scheme. She said that I should have contacted my branch. I told her that if this was the case, 365 Agent should have mentioned this on the first phone call. I'm an ordinary Joe Public who rang his banks national customer line. I'm not meant to know how the internal bank structures their operation nor should I have to.

    She also said [many times] that 365 Team Lead rang me back to advise me that I contact my branch. I told her that the call from 365 Team Lead [with that specific detail] never happened. I don't remember getting that call but in fairness, I spoke to MANY people over the two to five days. More than I should have had to talk to.

    Rep 5 said that from her side, there is nothing more that she could do and that I should take it up with my branch. "Hang on, I said, there seems to be a lot of miss communication". She agreed. I said that I rang the BOI national complaint line. REP1 took basic details from me and said Rep 1 would call me back. It appears now that Rep 5 took those basic details to be all that was wrong.

    I, in no uncertain terms, informed her that I want answers to an apparent system failure within the industry and BOI's roll in it AND how it related to my private bank account. I also told there that what I told her in this phone call was only a tiny portion of the problem and I wanted to discuss it in a wider fashion with the person finally put in charge of my complaint.

    She is referring the complaint back to Rep 1.

    BOI, You're a ****ing joke and a disgrace of a bank.


  • #9
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Even I could not have imagined that an entire bank could be so inept. I am amazed that from your contact recounted here that it would seem ipso have not been onto them to get their act sorted out. By the way the dd scheme rules constantly refer to your bank as distinct from a branch.

    As the banks urge customers to use the phone service I consider it perfectly reasonable to expect the staff there to know the rules of the scheme and the banks' obligations under the scheme.

    It is appalling that bill payers are pushed into such a woeful scheme and a major bank at hq level haven't a clue about their obligations.

    I wonder exactly how this lot function and what sort of reports they produce?
    I think it's safe to assume they don't spend too much time talking to customers!

    The Board of IRECC will appoint an advisory committee, to be known as the “Direct Debit Committee”, to do the following:
    1. To advise the Board on all aspects of the Direct Debit Scheme
    2. To promote the use of Direct Debits as a payment mechanism
    3. To monitor Direct Debit operations
    4. To monitor compliance with the Scheme Rules
    5. To report to the IRECC Board as necessary, but not less than once per annum.

    It would be absolutely fascinating to hear the official explanation as to how they monitor compliance with scheme rules as it is basically impossible to do this even if they actually wanted to.

    It would be very interesting to see the reports produced for 5 above. It would be even more interesting to find out where the material for the report was obtained.

    Maybe you should drop them a line.


  • #10
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    dub45 wrote: »
    It would be very interesting to see the reports produced for 5 above. It would be even more interesting to find out where the material for the report was obtained.

    Maybe you should drop them a line.

    Are IPSO a government body?
    Can I FOI that info?
    If not, is that info available to GenPop?


  • #11
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Are IPSO a government body?
    Can I FOI that info?
    If not, is that info available to GenPop?

    I have always presumed that IPSO are funded by the banks.

    IPSO appear to think that it's ok to operate with a Masonic level of secrecy. As an example the dd manager does not want his name given on boards even though IPSO themselves have put it into the public domain.

    They have contempt for the general public in my experience - if they didn't wouldn't they be making sure that bank staff knew the rules of the dd scheme at the very least and not operating complaints schemes that make Comreg look like a raging tiger by comparison? As far as I am aware there is no information at all in print on the dd scheme for the general public or indeed for bank staff. They have had more than enough time to educate banks and companies - after all it's been going since 1967!!!!

    When I wrote to the Chief Executive of IPSO several years ago with various queries about the dd my letter was ignored completely. It took a registered letter and a threat of bad publicity to get a response!

    So I would say that you have about as much chance of getting a copy of one of those report as .......

    Anyway you could write it yourself I am sure:):)


    By the way if you ask them for a copy of one of those reports you could always quote this from their website
    The IPSO board has a broad membership so as to represent fairly, the different types and size of IPSO’s members and other payment stakeholders. The board of directors includes three independent non-executive director positions as well as an independent non-executive chairman. The decision of the Board to appoint a wholly independent chairman demonstrates the board’s commitment to transparency and recognition of the increasing need to involve non-bank interests in IPSO decision making. The Central Bank of Ireland, as regulator of payments systems in Ireland, has been represented at IPSO board meetings since IPSO was established in 1997.

    My emphasis.


    When will they have a few aggressive bill payers on that board? And what exactly are those central bank people doing there? Surely they cannot be happy with the lack of basic knowledge of such an important scheme - that's of course if they know about it?

    By the way don't forget Three in all of this - Are IPSO frantically following up their non compliance?????


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  • #12
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Related but different company. Myt business account just had a DD of €850~ from Meteor. Just rang my branch and hope I don't have to run through the same hoops. For this amount, they WILL fix this today.

    Jeebus Criost.

    EDIT : I'm not even a Meteor Customer!!!!!!


  • #13
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    One of the Meteor Team Leads of CC just rang. He suggested that nothing is going to happen on their side unless I call the guards.

    Now, I don't want this to sound the wrong way. He wasn't saying it in a bad way. I already told him that I wasn't looking for a refund, as ban were looking after that. I just wanted to know how my mandate was re-activated. Actually, they shouldn't have had a mandate at all. I haven't been a customer of their in years.

    So he was saying it in a helpful way, in that it was Meteor policy. He wasn't giving me the PFO :)

    Three, I'm sorry to dig up a old thread but I didn't know where else to post. Maybe this is more suitable to Banking forum?


  • #14
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Hmmm, BOI Naas are not guaranteeing me a refund by COB today.

    As both Meteor and BOI Naas have advised me to call the Guards, that's what I'm doing now.


  • #15
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Decided against calling the guards. They have better things to be doing. I'll drop in to them on the way home instead, for a friendly 2 minute chat.

    As this isn't "really" a criminal matter, I suppose the SCC is the way to go.

    Just rang up to make a formal complaint about the shambles, AND to see where my other formal complaint went to from February. After a long time on hold, it was suggested [exceptionally apologetically] that I send the complaints in writing.

    I told her, in no uncertain terms, that I would now be sending in three.

    One for February unathorised DD
    One for today's unathorised DD
    And one against the complaints department for, apparently not giving a **** to follow up on my complaint, using their own complaints procedure.

    She DID say, however, that she would get onto Naas now to make sure the money was refunded today.

    Future Reference :
    BOI Group Formal Complaints : 1850 75 33 57
    BOI 365 Dublin number : 014044000 [rather than ringing 0818]


  • #16
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    ComReg, exceptionally helpful. Took all of my details, explained what will happen eand within what timeframes. Pretty much took ownership of the issue.

    They suggested to also contact the Data Protection Commissioner and National Consumer Agency and Financial Regulator.

    Rang Data Protection Commissioner. They just won'pt take the complaint over the phone. SNail or EMail only. Doing that now.

    Will ring the NCA later. Have to get SOME work done.
    Not going to Financial Regulator just yet. I have to exhaust the Group Complaints procedure.


  • #17
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just had a very good chat with the person in charge of my complaint in BOI Group Complaints.

    I'll summarise:

    I re-iterated to her that I want a copy [or recording] of the mandate that I signed or agreed to. Eventually, she said that she couldn't get it. She asked in BOI Group DD and they pretty much stone walled her but gave her some info and I must say, this is shocking.

    The guts of it are this. I got my branch to cancel the mandate. If Meteor try to put forward another payment, it will not go through. However, this block only remains in place for 2 months. If Meteor present a payment on the same mandate after two months, for ANY amount, it will be honoured. The bank can't stop it. I can't stop it. EVER.

    There is absolutely NO checks done by the bank on suspect mandates. It is 100% the honour system. The originator [Meteor in this case] promises that they have done all necessary checks on the person and that the bank details are their own. Now, we all know that this isn't the case. You just have to turn up to any network retail store with a utility bill and photo ID and you will get a phone contract. You just provide Bank Account Number and Sort Code.

    I don't know how she got the following information, whether it was from Meteor or someone in Group DD but she obtained the name on the mandate and a unique reference. The name is not mine nor anyone I know. Either there was an clerical error on Meteors side or someone used my bank account details. This flies in the face of the "due diligence" incumbent on Meteor, or any company.

    As this is now looking like fraud, I will be advising the Guards later today.


  • #18
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Complaint sent to DPC


  • #19
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just got off the phone with NCA. At this stage it has gone past their remit but gave me loads of advice on how to proceed. Good stuff.


  • #20
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    First formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Three un-authorised direct debit.


  • #21
    whiterebel
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,007 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    I don't know is it fair to be putting all this on a 3 forum? They take enough flak over their own mistakes as it is, never mind being lumped in with BOI/Meteor......


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  • #22
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I agree. I'll ask for it to be moved to Banking


  • #23
    lil5
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    RangeR wrote: »
    Three, I'm sorry to dig up a old thread but I didn't know where else to post. Maybe this is more suitable to Banking forum?

    As RangeR suggested earlier it might be more suited to the Banking forum (or maybe Consumer Issues?) as it's not a Three issue anymore.

    But it's certainly an enlightening tale and I wonder if it is coincidence that the DD's were caused by mobile providers.


  • #24
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    This just shows yet again what a woeful system the direct debit system is.

    It also shows that the direct debit guarantee is a lie pure and simple.
    You can cancel the Direct Debit Instruction by writing in good time to your bank

    You cannot cancel a dd with finality. A dd can be reinstated by simply changing a number.

    As it takes a deliberate action to resubmit a dd I believe that any company doing this is attempting to steal and surely is also in breach of the date protection act as in cancelling the dd the customer has specifically withdrawn permission for the company to use personal data.

    IPSO have never sought legal advice on this behaviour which is surely shocking.

    And no action will be taken against any company which reinstates a dd.

    It also shows how weak the banking system is in that a bank cannot guarantee the integrity of a customer's account.

    Under the rules of the dd scheme:
    Paying Banks:
    o must adhere to the Rules of the Scheme
    o must put in place processes which will ensure that unauthorised, refused and/or cancelled
    Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation
    o must promptly present indemnity claims arising under or pursuant to the Scheme
    o must assist its customer, to the extent practicable, in the resolution of disputes arising under or
    pursuant to the Scheme
    o must inform the Sponsoring Bank if an Originator is not adhering to the Rules of the Scheme

    The processes required at point two above are not in place. This is shocking.

    The scheme has been in place since 1967. Central Bank representatives are supposed to attend board meetings of IPSO. The so called Direct Debit Guarantee is unworkable and deceives people into thinking their accounts are safe and yet basic processes required under the scheme rules are not in place.

    Companies can and behave with impunity knowing that no matter what they do there are no consequences for them. Bank staff at all levels are shockingly ignorant of the rules of the scheme. There is no effective complaints system.

    The only one ever penalised under the scheme of course is Joe Soap. Try missing a dd and see how much it costs you!


  • #25
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Second formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Meteor un-authorised direct debit.


  • #26
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Forwarded on second formal complaint to IPSO. I told them that I Feel that the Direct Debit Scheme is a shambles. Also told them that I'll be informing the Gardaí and the Financial Regulator.


  • #27
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Second formal complaint sent, as directed by NCA, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Meteor un-authorised direct debit.

    It would be very interesting to ask Bank of Ireland why the processes required above are not in place. I wonder does anyone in any of the banks even know of this requirement? Why do IPSO not insist on it? After all the banks have had 45 years to get them in place!!


  • #28
    Oceans12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Oceans12


    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    just queried the above with the bank and apparently even if bank account is closed bank will pay out on a DD!

    and chase customer for the money!


    this cannot be true?


  • #29
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Three[:]Patrick, I apologise for the continuance of this thread. I have requested it to be moved out of your remit.


  • #30
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    And of course don't use the dd system but that is virtually impossible with so many companies insisting on it as a method of payment.

    It is instructive that several bank employees have told me that they would never use the dd system! One as recently as last week - I wonder why?:rolleyes:


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  • #31
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    shocking stuff..... just cancelled all my DD's and going to open a new account, with totally new account number, thats the only way really to be sure! this wont happen ...

    just queried the above with the bank and apparently even if bank account is closed bank will pay out on a DD!

    and chase customer for the money!


    this cannot be true?

    That should not happen but sadly it demonstrates what Ranger has already experienced and documented in the thread - the appalling lack of knowledge of bank staff (even at Corporate level)of the dd system. And imagine under the dd system your bank (the paying bank) are supposed to be looking after your interests and affording you support!

    It is quite incredible that the Central Bank are a party to this ongoing farce through their abject passivity in supposedly regulating IPSO.


  • #32
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    lil5 wrote: »
    As RangeR suggested earlier it might be more suited to the Banking forum (or maybe Consumer Issues?) as it's not a Three issue anymore.

    But it's certainly an enlightening tale and I wonder if it is coincidence that the DD's were caused by mobile providers.

    No take it from me (and just peruse any of the consumer related forums over a period) and you will see that it is not restricted to a particular type of company. For example in the past few months there was a post about the ESB dding an ex customer for about 150 euros or so - the customer have been gone for nearly a year I think. I have personal experience of Bord Gais double dding me three times in about 5 months a couple of years ago.


  • #33
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    just queried the above with the bank and apparently even if bank account is closed bank will pay out on a DD!

    and chase customer for the money!

    That is absolutely shocking. PLEASE take this up with IPSO. I'm currently discussing my DD issues with them.

    I'm not saying it's going to help but if people don't complain, nothing will change.


  • #34
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    I wonder if by any chance this is as a result of the Eircom data loss? Some data belonging to ex customers was involved in that shambles. Did you receive any correspondence from Eircom/Meteor about it by any chance?


  • #35
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I know this is going to sound strange but...

    Third formal complaint sent, to careline@boimail.com. This is in relation the the Bank of Ireland Group Complaints Department not following up on a formal complaint lodged in Week 1 February 2012.

    Tonight, I'm will print these three formal complaints and register post them tomorrow to :

    *Name withheld as per charter*
    Customer Care Unit
    Group Customer Complaints
    Bank of Ireland
    4th Floor
    New Century House
    Mayor Street
    IFSC
    Dublin 1


  • #36
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    dub45 wrote: »
    I wonder if by any chance this is as a result of the Eircom data loss? Some data belonging to ex customers was involved in that shambles. Did you receive any correspondence from Eircom/Meteor about it by any chance?

    I heard about it through the media but don't recollect hearing it direct from them. However, the bank shouldn't have honoured the mandate. The bank have a name on file, taken from the mandate. That name has nothing to do with my account, in any way. This was, apparently, an absolutely fraudulent payment.

    Within the past couple of hours, I have changed my position and am chasing the bank more than Meteor. There are some serious legal questions to be answered.

    I'll let you know what the Gardaí say tonight. I'm not willing to make public the formal complaints at this time, but I'm not ruling it out.


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  • #37
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    That is absolutely shocking. PLEASE take this up with IPSO. I'm currently discussing my DD issues with them.

    I'm not saying it's going to help but if people don't complain, nothing will change.

    Irrespective of how much you "discuss" anything no matter how bad in relation to the dd scheme with IPSO you will get the same basic answer. "Shouldn't have happened will take it up with bank/company/joebloggs" severe warning issued etc.

    They will rehash excuses that would shame a 10 year old schoolboy that has not done his homework. Nothing will ever be done to any company irrespective of what they do to a customer.


    The companies/banks dont give a hoot they know nothing will happen. IPSO are an industry body the bill payer comes a very poor third in their eyes. Their actions/inactions over the years are a testimony to that fact. IPSO are the equivalent of being savaged by a dead sheep in the old political phrase.


  • #38
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    I heard about it through the media but don't recollect hearing it direct from them. However, the bank shouldn't have honoured the mandate. The bank have a name on file, taken from the mandate. That name has nothing to do with my account, in any way. This was, apparently, an absolutely fraudulent payment.

    Within the past couple of hours, I have changed my position and am chasing the bank more than Meteor. There are some serious legal questions to be answered.

    I'll let you know what the Gardaí say tonight. I'm not willing to make public the formal complaints at this time, but I'm not ruling it out.

    This could go back to one of my favourite hobby horses the so called direct debit plus (almost offensive in its title)

    Where a dd+ is set up (usally over the phone or on line) the company holds the mandate. The bank are apparently not even aware of any of the details. So money can be taken from an account without the bank holding any physical authority from the customer - I really don't know how any auditor can stand over such a system.

    It has been well documented on here over a period how the dd+ causes lots of confusion for bank staff in the absence of a physical mandate.

    As regards the wrong name I presume this is down to the way payment is made. The dd is debited electronically so the name is not an issue all thats needed is the sort code and account number. In reality the banks havent caught up at all with protecting customers' accounts in the electronic age. You have only to talk to bank staff to realise that they have no concept (for the majority at least) of the duty to protect the integrity of the customers' accounts.

    Imagine if you were on holidays and dependent on this amount to actually live on?

    There is no mechanism in place to ensure that your problem is dealt with, with any sense of urgency and you have to fight the bureaucracy at every step of the way. What a system!!!!
    So much for a so called direct debit guarantee.

    The easiest way to solve the cancellation problem is that every time a dd is cancelled the account number should be removed from the company's system immediately and the customer should receive a signed written assurance of this having been done. There is no reason whatsoever to hold the account number once a dd has been cancelled.


  • #39
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    dub45 wrote: »
    This could go back to one of my favourite hobby horses the so called direct debit plus (almost offensive in its title)

    Where a dd+ is set up the company holds the mandate. The bank are not even aware of any of the details. So money can be taken from an account without the bank holding any authority from the customer - i really don't know how any auditor can stand over such a system.

    On the nose. Although, today, the bank called it Originator+.


  • #40
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just got back from talking to the local Gardai. There were very interested in talking about the issue. I gave them a copy of my earlier second formal complaint [re Meteor]. They are going to forward that onto the Fraud Squad in Dublin and take it from there.


  • #41
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Just got back from talking to the local Gardai. There were very interested in talking about the issue. I gave them a copy of my earlier second formal complaint [re Meteor]. They are going to forward that onto the Fraud Squad in Dublin and take it from there.

    Maybe IPSO need a vist from the fraud squad to wake them up to their responsibilities. It is a disgrace that they have never sought legal advice on the submission of a cancelled direct debit given that it is a deliberate attempt to access a persons account where the permission for such access had been specifically withdrawn.

    It would also seem to me that where a bank branch become aware of such an action that they should automatically notify the Gardai. But again in the absence of any concept of protecting the concept of the integrity of the customers account this would never occur to them.

    Any company who submits a cancelled direct debit should face either a considerable fine or automatic explusion from the scheme. Pigs will fly sooner sadly.


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  • #42
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    On the nose. Although, today, the bank called it Originator+.

    It would also seem that more companies are now resorting to using the dd+ system as their default system and even where a customer signs a paper mandate they are being put on the dd+ sytem.

    Given that the dd scheme rules provide that the default notice period for the scheme overall is 14 days (unless otherwise agreed with the customer) and the default notice period for the dd+ scheme is 7 days there would seem to be no provision with the dd scheme rules for a customer to be placed in the dd+ scheme without specific agreement. In my experience with Meteor this agreement was not sought.

    Also see this thread for a company's unique approach to using the dd scheme:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056427212


  • #43
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    RangeR wrote: »
    The guts of it are this. I got my branch to cancel the mandate. If Meteor try to put forward another payment, it will not go through. However, this block only remains in place for 2 months. If Meteor present a payment on the same mandate after two months, for ANY amount, it will be honoured. The bank can't stop it. I can't stop it. EVER.

    There is absolutely NO checks done by the bank on suspect mandates. It is 100% the honour system. The originator [Meteor in this case] promises that they have done all necessary checks on the person and that the bank details are their own. Now, we all know that this isn't the case. You just have to turn up to any network retail store with a utility bill and photo ID and you will get a phone contract. You just provide Bank Account Number and Sort Code.

    I would take this matter up with the Data protection commissioner immediately. I would also cc the email to the Financial Regulator. Comreg are secondary.

    This is your account and your money and your good name (and time and effort wasted) an BoI/IPSO are basically colluding in fraud at this stage and at your expense.

    However at this stage three are not in any way at fault. Perhaps the thread should be renamed and go to consumer issues.


  • #44
    Oceans12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Oceans12


    have a look at this url http://www.ipso.ie/action/validation it allows you to validate an account number,

    i put in an account number that i had closed two years ago and its showing that old account number as a valid one.


    is it a little silly to have an application like at the above url open to the public?? also why is my account showing as valid if its a closed account?


  • #45
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    have a look at this url http://www.ipso.ie/action/validation it allows you to validate an account number,

    i put in an account number that i had closed two years ago and its showing that old account number as a valid one.


    is it a little silly to have an application like at the above url open to the public?? also why is my account showing as valid if its a closed account?

    It's based on an algorithm. It just verifies the make up of the account number matches the sort code. Nothing else. It doesn't know if the account is open or not.


  • #46
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I would take this matter up with the Data protection commissioner immediately. I would also cc the email to the Financial Regulator. Comreg are secondary.

    This is your account and your money and your good name (and time and effort wasted) an BoI/IPSO are basically colluding in fraud at this stage and at your expense.

    However at this stage three are not in any way at fault. Perhaps the thread should be renamed and go to consumer issues.

    Further up the thread, I mentioned that I already rang the DPC. They didn't want to talk to me over the phone and insisted I put my complaint in writing, so I then followed the directions on their website and filled in the complaint form.

    Fair enough, that's how they operate but it's a far cry compared to the assistance I received over the phone from ComReg and NCA.


  • #47
    Oceans12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Oceans12


    RangeR wrote: »
    It's based on an algorithm. It just verifies the make up of the account number matches the sort code. Nothing else. It doesn't know if the account is open or not.


    i thought as much,


  • #48
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Oceans12 wrote: »
    have a look at this url http://www.ipso.ie/action/validation it allows you to validate an account number,

    i put in an account number that i had closed two years ago and its showing that old account number as a valid one.


    is it a little silly to have an application like at the above url open to the public?? also why is my account showing as valid if its a closed account?

    I agree and I raised it with them some time ago to no effect.


  • #49
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    So, here is the current state of play.

    I contacted Meteor about the irregularity. They refused to do anything unless I show them a bank statement [which will only confirm it happened] or I contact the guards and the guards get a court order.

    I contacted my bank, obtained a refund and they cancelled the Direct Debit.

    At this stage, I'm just chasing for answers and accountability.

    TWO MINUTES AGO, my partner says that Meteor charged us a €10.15 amount for an unpaid bill. How do we know this? You guessed it, they charged it via DD form our account.

    This is meant to be impossible!!!!!


    EDIT : I was mistaken. Meteor didn't put forward that charge. The ****ing bank did. ****ing ridiculous. I demanded the money back within the hour. I don't offer credit and it's MY money.


  • #50
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    So, here is the current state of play.

    I contacted Meteor about the irregularity. They refused to do anything unless I show them a bank statement [which will only confirm it happened] or I contact the guards and the guards get a court order.

    I contacted my bank, obtained a refund and they cancelled the Direct Debit.

    At this stage, I'm just chasing for answers and accountability.

    TWO MINUTES AGO, my partner says that Meteor charged us a €10.15 amount for an unpaid bill. How do we know this? You guessed it, they charged it via DD form our account.

    This is meant to be impossible!!!!!


    EDIT : I was mistaken. Meteor didn't put forward that charge. The ****ing bank did. ****ing ridiculous. I demanded the money back within the hour. I don't offer credit and it's MY money.

    Banks are so sensitive and caring aren't they? I wonder if there is a formal procedure when paying banks become aware of such an occurrence?

    Have they informed the Gardai? (Surely this should be automatic in any case like this?)

    Have they informed Meteor's sponsoring bank?


    Have they informed IPSO?

    If there was a proper procedure in place for monitoring the dd system you would think all three actions above would be mandatory.

    Also there is supposed to be a dd committee which monitors the working of the scheme - no doubt they were informed immediately by your branch:D:D

    Meteor seem extraordinarily unconcerned about this matter given that they obtained a considerable sum of money from an ex customer's account irregularly. You might also think that they would be particularly interested in a case like this given the possibility that it could result from their data loss. Company staff appear to have no appreciation of the "wrongness" of accessing a person's bank account as they wish. (Several years ago when I was complaining to Bord Gais about my account being double dd's one of their staff said to me with exasperation in his voice "but sure we have your account number" as if it entitled them to do as they wish. And sadly that is the culture in many companies.)


  • #51
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Further up the thread, I mentioned that I already rang the DPC. They didn't want to talk to me over the phone and insisted I put my complaint in writing, so I then followed the directions on their website and filled in the complaint form.

    Fair enough, that's how they operate but it's a far cry compared to the assistance I received over the phone from ComReg and NCA.

    In a couple of cases I found the DPC very helpful but in one recently in relation to a query about the Eircom data loss they were bizarrely disappointing. The person I spoke to on the phone seemed extraordinarily out of touch given that this is such a big case.


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