leisure battery

Macspower · 20-03-2014 1:37pm

I have 2 of the halfords ones in for the last 6 years...

they are now both completely dead. Rotten egg smell on charging and warped looking..

I am now running off a standard battery until I get 2 new ones.. the standard battery is not up to the job at all and once discharged it's basically banjaxed..

I suppose 6 years was a good run from a pair of batteries.. If they are 99 euro I'd consider them again.

kelbal · 20-03-2014 5:58pm

Just dropped into Halfords, and the battery they have on offer is actually a 115Ah one - for €99. Its a Yuasa battery. Needless to say, I left with one in my hands.

20-03-2014 6:47pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

As Sir Liamalot says, 2 X 6 volt traction

T-105's are semi-traction and competitively priced for what you get imho. 225Ah for £200.
Normal discharge levels.
I wouldn't drop a real traction to 20% either.

marzyt · 31-03-2014 9:23am

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

niloc1951 · 31-03-2014 11:38am

marzyt wrote: »

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

Running Bull are designed to cars with stop/start technology. Perhaps their Energy Bull designed specifically for leisure applications would have performed better.

Is the electrolyte level ok if it's the flooded type.
Is the onboard charger set to the correct profile for the type of battery (if it's adjustable), I believe there are two different types of Running Bull, flooded and AGM, each requires a different charging profile to maximise its charge/life.

A quality leisure battery connected to the correct type of 3 or 4 step charger most of the time should give a much better return, over five years of life could reasonably be expected, I've know a pair that lasted eight years.

moodrater · 31-03-2014 5:12pm

marzyt wrote: »

Hi there
I installed two new Banner running bull leisure batteries 92ah in my hymer motorhome in auguct 2011 and now find that they are loosing the charge slowly over a few days even with the 12v main switch off could it be that they are weak and not holding the charge or is there possibly a leak somewhere . I usually have the motorhome plugged into 240 v most of the time ,I did find the power quite low a few days ago when i left the van unplugged from the 240v any ideas

If you don't have a multimeter to check for a drain then charge fully for a couple of days, then disconnect them and see if they maintain charge over time. Are they AGM batteries they don't like being overcharged you'd want to check your charger voltages / if you're thinking of going AGM again.

marzyt · 31-03-2014 5:14pm

hi there
many thanks niloc 1951 for your reply, I have rechecked the batteries and note that they are indeed sealed AGM batteries, I have checked with Eoropower who supply them in this country and was told that they are used extensively in motorhomes . I will check with the supplier who installed them but i have no doubt that the settings are ok on the charger. The batteries are continueing to loose power when not plugged into the 240v

moodrater · 01-04-2014 12:14am

marzyt wrote: »

I will check with the supplier who installed them but i have no doubt that the settings are ok on the charger. The batteries are continueing to loose power when not plugged into the 240v

You don't know whether its self discharge within the battery or something draining it without a meter or disconnecting the batteries from the circuit for a period and rechecking them. You also should test the batteries independently as you may just have one bad battery.
Whatever about the 'settings' most of the shaudt electroblocks had a final charge of 14.3v which is too low for the banner bull to achieve full charge and a float of 13.8v which is too high and no temperature compensation. That was regardless of gel/flooded setting. And thats assuming its operating correctly.

01-04-2014 1:11am

marzyt wrote: »

I have checked with Eoropower who supply them in this country and was told that they are used extensively in motorhomes.

Doesn't make it right though.

1 bad battery in a bank = 2 x weakest battery
Important information on parallel batteries
AGM's are a pain, they are very unforgiving of minor charging descrepencies.

Is there anything that could be bypassing your main isolator? Other than a battery monitor.

I recently learned why manufacturers spread the myth that undercharge is better than overcharge, and why most chargers are set too low. Most inverters shut down at 15v as over-voltage protection. Whereas a decent temperature compensating charger on a 14.7v set-point could be well over 15.5v.

As a rule of thumb the ambient Irish climate requires a 0.3v boost across a wet LA battery.

marzyt · 01-04-2014 7:30pm

I charged the battery up pretty well and then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched , any suggestion as to suitable replacements ? i dont think i will get the same again.

niloc1951 · 01-04-2014 8:51pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Doesn't make it right though.

1 bad battery in a bank = 2 x weakest battery
Important information on parallel batteries
AGM's are a pain, they are very unforgiving of minor charging descrepencies.

Is there anything that could be bypassing your main isolator? Other than a battery monitor.

I recently learned why manufacturers spread the myth that undercharge is better than overcharge, and why most chargers are set too low. Most inverters shut down at 15v as over-voltage protection. Whereas a decent temperature compensating charger on a 14.7v set-point could be well over 15.5v.

As a rule of thumb the ambient Irish climate requires a 0.3v boost across a wet LA battery.

I had two batteries wired in the usual method 1 way, interestingly the furthest away battery did give up the ghost first, all be it in its eight year, but the other one was still ok.
As recommended I changed both and rewired them as in method 2.
When time permits I am going to change the wiring to that shown in method 3.
Having invested over €300 in the new pair I plan to maximise their return.

When at home they are on permanent charge and when away, after use off grid, they get a whack from One Of These when I'm on the move.

02-04-2014 1:28am

Cwaor nice setup. That's a fast charger though isn't it? On sealed batteries...easy enough break into them anyways.
I'm hardly surprised the one closest your charger lasted longest Niloc. I reckon you know best how to treat them. In your case the nearest was getting the fullest charge, scarcely the norm though. Loading configuration being the same as charging.

I've got an 115mm² series link lead on standby for when I get my 2 x 6v's delivered

. I'm predicting a 1.5m run to keep the van balanced.

If you only have two batteries method 2 & method 3 are likely the same.

SmartGuage wrote:

Finally, if you only have 2 batteries, then simply linking them together and taking the main feeds from diagonally opposite corners cannot be improved upon.

moodrater · 02-04-2014 1:59am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Important information on parallel batteries

Not content to accept their calculations I just simulated it using an up to date gel battery model and ...... spot on.

marzyt wrote: »

I charged the battery up pretty well and then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched , any suggestion as to suitable replacements ? i dont think i will get the same again.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you may still have a one good battery or a defective charger you really need to check them separately.

02-04-2014 2:05am

You questioning my sources Mr. M.? :pac:

[Edit] Probably right to(o)...;)..carry on.

02-04-2014 3:11pm

marzyt wrote: »

put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on

Are you running lights off an inverter? What's the total load in watts?
Waiting for the inverter to start ringing is a very bad practice, the bell is set to 10.5v ideally for battery longevity you wouldn't be dropping below 12.0v at the absolute min., 12.2v is recommended cut-off.

niloc1951 · 02-04-2014 10:58pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Cwaor nice setup. That's a fast charger though isn't it? On sealed batteries...easy enough break into them anyways.
I'm hardly surprised the one closest your charger lasted longest Niloc. I reckon you know best how to treat them. In your case the nearest was getting the fullest charge, scarcely the norm though. Loading configuration being the same as charging.

I've got an 115mm² series link lead on standby for when I get my 2 x 6v's delivered . I'm predicting a 1.5m run to keep the van balanced.

If you only have two batteries method 2 & method 3 are likely the same.

Although the unit has DIP switches to alter the charging profile depending on battery type, 'ordinary' wet flooded which can have their electrolyte level checked and topped up are recommended as the most aggressive charging profile is best but results in water loss.

I usually need to top mine up a couple of times a year, but I do spend extended times off grid and have a few power hungry appliances.

My Banner Energy Bulls performed very well last autumn while touring France for two weeks using Aires every night, particularly considering they were running a CPAP Machine each night, plus all the other usual stuff like TV/Sat/radio, heating, lighting, water pumping, etc.

marzyt · 04-04-2014 11:12am

Took your advise moodrater,I fully charged both batteries and disconnected the leads for two days and discovered that they are fully holding the charge and to be sure took them both to a local motor factors who tested them and found them to be in a very good condition . looks like my problem may lay in the charging system or as he suggests the relay device hopefully will get to the bottom of it

moodrater · 04-04-2014 12:17pm

marzyt wrote: »

Took your advise moodrater,I fully charged both batteries and disconnected the leads for two days and discovered that they are fully holding the charge and to be sure took them both to a local motor factors who tested them and found them to be in a very good condition . looks like my problem may lay in the charging system or as he suggests the relay device hopefully will get to the bottom of it

Few quid saved so, get/borrow a multimeter if you don't have one then its just a matter of pulling/replacing fuses / relays until the drain is gone to find it.

If theres a maplin near you : http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/ut-30b-digital-compact-multimeter-n15by

05-04-2014 2:31am

marzyt wrote: »

...then put on all the lights to see how long they would last before the alarm came on and found i had power for about one hour sounds like they are bunched...

You used ~1500Wh on lights in an hour?!?

Any pic's of this relay device?

+1 get a multimeter although anything glowing red with heat emissions might be a likely suspect.

moodrater · 05-04-2014 2:14pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

+1 get a multimeter although anything glowing red with heat emissions might be a likely suspect.

Batteries were never charged in the first place, the electroblock probably doesn't put out enough voltage to give them a full charge in the first place and with the kind of drain he's talking about it was probably only putting a couple of amps at most into the batteries so they'd have to be charging for a few days to get anywhere near capacity. Probably getting a surface charge on them those control panels are useless for assessing charge and capacity.

Aidan_M_M · 05-04-2014 2:45pm

moodrater wrote: »

Batteries were never charged in the first place, the electroblock probably doesn't put out enough voltage to give them a full charge in the first place and with the kind of drain he's talking about it was probably only putting a couple of amps at most into the batteries so they'd have to be charging for a few days to get anywhere near capacity. Probably getting a surface charge on them those control panels are useless for assessing charge and capacity.

Why do you think the EBL wouldn't put out enough voltage? They can go to 14.2 v.
And depending on the model, they give out anywhere between 8-22 amps in most Motorhomes.

05-04-2014 6:12pm

Generally speaking I've never seen a charger that outputs the voltage it says it does when using the charging leads to measure voltage. Usually there's a 0.2v to 0.3v deficit.
They only measure the voltage at the charger terminals on wires laden to ampacity, not at the batteries.
Add another -0.3v temperature allowance and then you're talking days not hours to charge if it's intelligent enough to compensate for the ghost load...longer still if it doesn't.
[Edit] now add the cable resistance between the batteries if they are wired as per battery +1 instead of battery bank, and internal battery resistance which increases the lower the SOC and with age/sulphation and realising that the charger has to be at least 0.3v higher than the battery to start accepting charge what you have left is a very constricted "electrical torque" if you will.
Then with battery +1 method charger drops to float while the furthest battery is still charging from the battery nearest the charger at a significantly reduced voltage and losing 15% to 35% of what it takes.

Taking my batteries as an example (with a grain of salt as they are made of lemonade at this stage) the last time I put them on mains charge they held 14.7v-14.8v on a 14.4v set-point for ~60hours at the last remaining 800-300mA before dropping to float, after 3 weeks of constant use with just solar + alternator feeding the loss.

Commonly the problem with stock electrical systems is batteries are charged to 75%-80% then depleted to 50% (using more amps as the terminal voltage is reduced) leaving one with the low end of 25% usable capacity with a 20watt constant system load, too many points of contact resistance and too small cables.
There's a lot to be gained running the alternator straight to the house batteries and second to the engine battery on cable rated for transmission and not heat.

Quite often I see 12.6v listed as 100% charged.
If I ever find a new battery testing full on a hydrometer at 12.6v I'll be bringing it back for exchange immediately. Depending on electrolyte strength I'd accept no less than 12.8v - 13.1v.

HandyBobSolar wrote:

CONVERTERS: Here is the other place that the RV industry has really let us down. Nearly all basic RV’s, whether they are trailers, fifth wheels or motor homes are equipped with something called a converter or “charger”. This mislabeled item should be called a battery maintainer, because it is designed to be plugged into shore power in an RV park 24 hours a day, which is really what the RV industry wants us to do. Converters are set to maintain the batteries at the “float” voltage, about 13.5 volts, and supply a trickle charge (2-3 amps, or 25-35 watts) to keep the batteries full, while not over charging them and boiling them dry. Because of the length and size of the wiring in most rigs, the converter typically supplies less than 13 volts to the battery. Some newer three stage converters will put out over 14 volts, but that is still too low. You cannot successfully charge batteries with a converter, because you never get the batteries up to the required 14.4 volts and hold them there long enough. Don’t pay any attention to the amp rating of the converter and don’t believe that it is a good charger just because it is labeled three stage. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY UPGRADING TO A THREE STAGE CONVERTER, THINKING IT WILL BE ANY BETTER. It will put the rated amps out for a very short time after you have run the batteries down or have just plugged in and it will drop to float the second it reaches whatever set point they used, then it will taper the amps off to a trickle at about 13 volts, long before the batteries are full. Plus, if you have any solar power, the voltage it puts out will be sensed by the converter and cause it to go into trickle charge mode even sooner. I installed a new 60 amp Intellipower converter in a friend’s rig & when we started the generator I measured only 4 amps output at 13.6 volts right away. It dropped from bulk charge to float in seconds, and those batteries were not full. Does that sound like a battery charger to you? Their own spec sheet says that it drops to float when the batteries are at 90% and in my experience this is very optimistic. My solar system actually puts more amps (3.5 amps) into my batteries on a cloudy day than your average converter does, and I can’t keep my batteries charged when it is cloudy, even with that trickle charge working all day. Therefore, you can’t expect your converter to charge them, either. You are actually lucky to ever get your batteries over 80% full with a converter that is plugged in for several days unless the rig is stored and no electricity is being used. The single battery supplied on most small rigs holds about 90 amp hours. That is about 30 hours of charging from the converter, but at the same time you are still running loads and reducing the power actually going to the batteries, so we are talking days, not hours. The truth is that it takes even longer because batteries are not 100% efficient, especially when they get closer to full. In 2007 I repaired the solar system on a friend’s motor home that had been plugged in for a full month at a park and then driven to our camp for a half hour, with the engine alternator charging the batteries. He arrived with his house batteries at 12.5 volts and the hydrometer showing them about 75% charged. This is typical of rigs that are kept in RV parks & occasionally taken out to boondock. They never have fully charged batteries. Converters need to be plugged in 24 hours a day to work, not run for an hour or two with a generator.

moodrater · 06-04-2014 1:18am

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Why do you think the EBL wouldn't put out enough voltage? They can go to 14.2 v.
And depending on the model, they give out anywhere between 8-22 amps in most Motorhomes.

Its a time based absorption stage at least the older ones anyway, so it will stop regardless of the current being drawn. If the batteries have been very flat it will turn off long before the batteries are full. It take a few charge discharge cycles before most automatic chargers bring a battery to capacity. Sounds like he has a serious drain load connected during the charging process which is why I was saying the charger is only putting a few amps in the batteries the rest is going in the load. And finally they are agm batteries which should have absorption voltage of 14.7/8 v for out climate to achive capacity.

06-04-2014 3:40am

Banner say a recommended 14.7v absorption set-point (max 14.8v) on their AGMs which makes 15.1v - 15.2v temperature compensated. Although I'd recommend lower and longer though because you can't afford the electrolyte loss(~0.3v lower (so what Moodrater said :pac: ) not an entire volt).
14.2v battery terminal voltage will not create any electrolyte loss below 20°C ambient but it's up to you if that's worth your time or not. Lower charge voltages are also more likely to suffer from sulphation symptoms.
Hard to say long-term which is worse; undercharging or negligible boilage. They're not the most practical design, just reassuringly expensive.
They're great when you want to turn them upside down for a few minutes though.

Banner Batterien wrote:

Please employ the AGM setting, which means that the charge voltage should be set at 14.7V and the float charge voltage at 13.5V. Best of all, use an IUoU characteristic with temperature compensation (should you have this setting available).

Banner FAQ

06-04-2014 3:45am

One problem at a time eh!

Direct link

marzyt · 06-04-2014 9:51am

I fully charged up both batteries disconnected them and left them for a few days and discovered that both were holding the full charge ,i also had both of them checked at a local supplier who confirmed that they were in very good condition, it appears the problem may lie else where. just one question what is the normal reading on the battery monitor with all appliances off and the 240v connection unplugged ?

06-04-2014 4:07pm

Depends on the battery monitor, what is it?
I'd expect either 12.8v or full or 100% or close as possible to 0amps.

marzyt · 06-04-2014 6:08pm

yes it is holding at a constant 12.8, i still cant figure out what was going on previously but since i switched off the transformer rectifier and disconnected the batteries and subsequently reconnected them again there hasnt been a problem

marzyt · 06-04-2014 6:36pm

yes it is holding at a constant 12.8, i still cant figure out what was going on previously but since i switched off the transformer rectifier and disconnected the batteries and subsequently reconnected them again there hasnt been a problem

leisure battery

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