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Learner permits driving alone. Enforcement?

2

Comments

  • #52
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,294 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ally Dick wrote: »
    Well I do blame them. Little apples grow into an orchard. Lazy community policing and the fact that garda patrols seem to be a thing of the past has caused anarchy on our streets. Small petty crime is "let go" by the guards and then this leads to more and more serious crime. We need zero tolerance in this country and the gardai are not prepared to do it. They put on their poor victimised civil servants hats now, and hide in their police stations. They are fuming over the pension levy. They are on a work to rule e.g. a go slow. They are quite prepared to let the country go to rack and ruin so they can hold the government to ransom for a wage increase. They don't deserve the huge wages they are currently earning, as it is !
    Which country is this supposed to be in? :confused:


  • #53
    Ally Dick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,715 ✭✭✭✭Ally Dick


    kbannon wrote: »
    Which country is this supposed to be in? :confused:

    It's happening all over Ireland. Look at the results on the paper every day - criminality is rife. The message is out there for every criminal that they can do what they like and get away with it. What about the lack of cops at Slane for the concert? What about all the drugs and assaults ? It's getting worse and worse every day.


  • #54
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,294 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ally Dick wrote: »
    It's happening all over Ireland. Look at the results on the paper every day - criminality is rife. The message is out there for every criminal that they can do what they like and get away with it. What about the lack of cops at Slane for the concert? What about all the drugs and assaults ? It's getting worse and worse every day.
    You claimed that we have "anarchy on our streets" - where is this anarchy?

    As for the crime rates, do you seriously believe that gardai sit on their arses all day waiting for their shift to finish?
    Slane was a balls up and personally I would look more towards MCD as the principal organisers. However, it wasn't a lack of gardai that caused the main problems with the event. As for the drug problem - I wasn't there but the only reference to drugs that I heard of was a big bust in the VIP area!

    I do believe that we need more gardai on the beat and less sitting waiting themselves in the courts. However, this isn't their fault. We have leaders who could legislate for all of this if they wished.

    We have an underfunded force who don't have proper tools to deal with todays scumbags - they don't even have proper radios. We have a public who are content in keeping this situation by buying drugs/stolen goods/etc. However, they still go out and do thier job despite all of this (and despite your view), knowing that sooner or later they could end up in hospital and possibly feel what they do is not aknowledged by the public (such as yourself).

    The gardai are using common sense when it comes to enforcing many laws (such as the accompanied learner driver law). Don't use it as an excuse to label all gardai as lazy or incompetent.

    Now lets get back on topic!


  • #55
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Ally Dick wrote: »
    Small petty crime is "let go" by the guards and then this leads to more and more serious crime. We need zero tolerance in this country and the gardai are not prepared to do it
    The judiciary are responsible for much of this - not the Gardai. The Garda does the groundwork but when the case is brought to court, the judges dismiss it.


  • #56
    messygirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭messygirl


    sorry i wasnt probably clear, my brother is a normal garda in a small station, from what i heard the traffic corps are very strict, its the normal gardai who are more lenient.

    and he doesn't let petty crime pass, if anything if they had more powers they might be able to do more.
    Slane is a private gig, it should be the responsibility of the people making thousands and thousands of euro to provide security instead of taking gardai away from solving real crimes (even though i am pretty sure the gig compensates the government but still its less gardai on the streets of dublin etc).
    Petty crime is on the increase because of the recession and because of young people not respecting the law.

    Regarding the L plates I have to admit ye are changing my view of it, but I still think a proper structure needs to be put into place to fully facilitate this and to stop blaming the police,

    Also I havent heard anything about the gardai being on a work to rule, and frankly Im geting really annoyed and insulted by this slandering of gardai, they can't be everywhere at once and they do a pretty good job considering they are fighting people with slash hooks, knives and guns using wooden batons.


  • #57
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #58
    IgnatiusPop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭IgnatiusPop


    Busi_Girl08 wrote: »
    It really pisses me off though.

    I am a learner driver myself. I've seen several of my friends driving around with their L plates, or taking them off, unaccompanied.

    Their reason for doing it? "Sure you never get caught". :rolleyes:

    I will never drive unaccompanied. Partly because I'm going to be on my Dad's insurance, in his car, and he is sure as hell not going to let me, but mainly because I don't want to break the law, putting other's people's life in danger, just so I can get around.

    People say that they don't have any choice or whatever, which just is ridiculous.
    I really hope that the Gardai tackle down on it more in the future.

    Sorry, needed to rant. :o


    If you had said that 2 years ago, I probably would have disagreed, because the waiting times for getting a test were crazy (up to almost a year in some parts of the country:eek:) and many people need the car to get to work. However, in the past 12 months or so we have seen a big reduction of the waiting times (approx 10 weeks) from the time that you pay the fee for the test to the time you get to sit it, and because of that, I agree that people who get a provisional, should spend a little time getting used to the car, ie a month or two of driving the car at least once a day, and then move onto applying for a full licence. That way most people can have their first provisional, and their full licence within a year (or less depending on how long it takes to get comfortable with driving), and you would have less people arseing around on their 3rd or 4th provisional in breech of the law.


  • #59
    Sunjammer
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Sunjammer


    I think most Gardai use the common sense approach to the unaccompanied driver law if they see that the driver is capable then they let it go, lets not forget here the test is just 30-40 minutes and in fact some full licensed drivers have never been tested, it does not mean the driver is perfect for passing it ;),

    The Gardai also perfer to be stopping real crime and like to get along with the public, it is the public who they get most help from in fighting crime, If they were to enforce and punish every little detail of the law they would not get much co-operation from the public hense the reason the Gardai tend to be leinient on the not so serious issues of law... and rightly so too IMO!

    Show me a person who says they have never ever broken a law of some sort and I'll show you a liar :p:p:D


  • #60
    hayyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭hayyman


    messygirl wrote: »
    Driving mad I am very sorry to hear about your relatives,it must be heard wondering what if all the time, my cousin died because he wasnt wearing his seatbelt about 15 years ago and it was traumatic for his parents, if the government had made it their job to ensure everyone was wearing setabelts he could be married with kids by now, this must be a tough topic for you.

    What has the goverment got to do with your cousin not wearing his seatbelt, your cousin made the choice not to wear his seatbelt just like provisional drivers choose to drive on there own.The laws should be inforced and if the gaurds arent goin to inforce it then lets not do people for speeding or not stopping at a red traffic lights so.


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  • #61
    messygirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭messygirl


    im just trying to make the point that back 15 years ago seatbelt wearing wasnt that important and he died and its horrible and you aer always thinking what if? (i didnt know him too well but you can still see the affect on his parents) and you can't always try and think of things like that,

    Donegal fella we have a law in place rather than a structure that facilitates proper learning of driving, I meant maybe facilitating the learning of driving rules in schools, having more of an influence on young drivers by teaching them rules of the roads and having people go to schools to talk about the dangers and the positives and all that, America has a good system and it means the quality of drivers over there are (so i heard before anyone feels like jumping down my throat) superior to over here. they get permits when still in school and learn from the beginning how to drive, rather than being put into a car with an inexperienced instructor (my boyfriend tried to teach me and it was so different from a proper instructer, my parents etc sat in the car and it was still different) over in ireland its jump in the car with your parents and head down the n7 and thats legal. i think the smoking ban analogy is good in the way it shows how enforcement is an active way forward, but you cant compare having to go outside to a beer garden with having to wait to find someone to drive with you.


  • #62
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #63
    messygirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭messygirl


    i stand corrected, i just think it is a really good idea to have some system in place where teenagers learn the importance of driving right from the start,


  • #64
    ztoical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭ztoical


    messygirl wrote: »
    America has a good system and it means the quality of drivers over there are (so i heard before anyone feels like jumping down my throat) superior to over here.

    there is no system, there are about 51 of them. There is no such thing as an american drivers license as each state issues it's own therefore the american standard of driving varies from state to state and in some cases the standard is great and in others it's turely awful. Lived there for several years and saw some fantastic driving and saw some truely scary driving. One friend took her driving test in Washington state and it lasted 15 mins and they never left the test center - just drove around the car park. She's a truely awful driver and I would never get into a car with her driving. In New Jersey you can sit the driving test in about 30 different languages but the road signs are all in english so they are having issues in some areas with drivers not being able to read basic road signs. It's a running joke in new york that if you see a car with yellow plates [ie New Jersey plates] get out of it's way cus they are awful drivers and will run you over. Connecticut seems to have a good standard, any of my friends there who are good drivers all seem to have learned in connecticut.

    Driving is a big part of the culture over there as well, hence why they start so young. New York is the only city with a good, affordble 24 hour public transport system. In most other places if you don't drive you can't work, get food, go to school etc etc


  • #65
    alrightcuz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭alrightcuz


    ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t the only difference is when they crash there ok and when a learner in his 96,97 crashes his car crumbles and people die instead of looking at the death tole and going ahh they were all learners why not start looking at there cars they were driving and seeing what safety grade it has, i bet the next person that dies wont be driveing a 08 ,5 star toyota , geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car or even have a 5 star affordable car


  • #66
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    Right everybody, i'll only say this once.
    There is no need for foul language, it serves no purpose on this forum, any more posts in breech of the charter will result in infractions/warnings.


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  • #67
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    alrightcuz wrote: »
    ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t the only difference is when they crash there ok and when a learner in his 96,97 crashes his car crumbles and people die instead of looking at the death tole and going ahh they were all learners why not start looking at there cars they were driving and seeing what safety grade it has, i bet the next person that dies wont be driveing a 08 ,5 star toyota , geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car or even have a 5 star affordable car

    Alrightcuz, Please keep in mind my previous post when posting again.

    I've said this before, and i'll say it again. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Having a roof over your head does not compare to driving.
    So let me get this straight, everyone should drive a new 5 star NCAP rated car? What happens to the second hand market? And Those 5 stars constantly change as car safety improves, as a car that got 5 stars in 98 would not get 5 stars in 2009.


  • #68
    RSA ADI MARK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭RSA ADI MARK


    well said alanstrainor it's privilege and you have to earn that right by passing you'r test .( And yes i'm an instructor ):D


  • #69
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    alrightcuz wrote: »
    ive lived all over this country and its the f***ers in the flash cars the bmw's the 08 the 09's that cant drive for s**t
    How do you explain that insurance claims are much greater from the younger (and more likely to be learners) age group?
    alrightcuz wrote:
    geting your 1st car should be like buying ur first house you should get a tax break for ur 1st car
    Having adequate shelter is a basic human right - ownership of a car is not.


  • #70
    alrightcuz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭alrightcuz


    you can say what you you want about the second hand car market ,but what kind of car would you have your daughter and son drive,econmonics doesn't save lives good safe cars do,and in the 90's there wasn't as many cars on the roads as there are today and our road infrastructure was totally different, and personly i would have everyone drive a 5 star car i value lives over everything else and as for the driving instructor maybe if ye teach people to drive and not how to past a test ie stop giving them the route it would be a farer test ever notice how people who rent the cars off the learner company for the test never fail!!!!!! 30 an hour is a joke ps im a qualified car/bike mechanic an a quality inspector for a haulage company im also a electronic eng i no the difference between 09 and 90's cars and its a hell of a difference


  • #71
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    alrightcuz wrote: »
    you can say what you you want about the second hand car market ,but what kind of car would you have your daughter and son drive,econmonics doesn't save lives good safe cars do,and in the 90's there wasn't as many cars on the roads as there are today and our road infrastructure was totally different, and personly i would have everyone drive a 5 star car i value lives over everything else and as for the driving instructor maybe if ye teach people to drive and not how to past a test ie stop giving them the route it would be a farer test ever notice how people who rent the cars off the learner company for the test never fail!!!!!! 30 an hour is a joke ps im a qualified car/bike mechanic an a quality inspector for a haulage company im also a electronic eng i no the difference between 09 and 90's cars and its a hell of a difference

    Where to start?
    If i had an infinite amount of money to spend on a car of course i would buy the safest car for my son/daughter to learn in. But i don't, and to expect the government to foot the bill in this economic climate is quite frankly, insane. 5 star ratings doesn't mean you're guaranteed to survive in a crash either, once you get above 80km/h you can forget your 5 stars, it's just not going to end well.
    I would love to see some statistics on your claim that those who rent driving school cars NEVER fail. Infact i would say that you're no more or less likely to pass/fail in an instructors car.
    As for the price of lessons, as an instructor, you have to pay tremendous amounts on getting qualified, paying for a car, running costs of the car, insurance, tax etc so €30 is not very much.
    My point about the difference between a car built in 99 and one built in 09 was to do with you saying everyone should drive a 5 star rated car. The 5 stars really means nothing after a few years, i believe a yaris was a 5 star car in 99, but the same car built in 99 put through todays test would not get 5 stars, as the general standard in car safety has risen enormously.


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  • #72
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Its a false economy to assume that your 100% safe just because your driving a 5 star safety rated car, ultimately it comes down to it being your job to drive in a safe and reasonable manner and if you can't then you should not be driving.

    Further to this cars cost money, between fuel, tax, insurance, garage work etc they are expensive things to own and if you can't afford to run one you shouldn't have one, you can't expect another person or the government for that matter to fund a car for you,.

    Owning and driving a car is not some sort of human right in fairness


  • #73
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    It's amazing just how often the law is being flouted.

    A middle-aged relative of mine was stopped while I was in the car. She was asked to produce her licence, to my horror, she produced a ten year expired provisional licence. Garda simply lets her off with a warning that she needs to get a new learner permit, without even mentioning the fact she was unaccompanied.

    Another time, I saw a woman with two kids in the back take over ten atempts to get her Micra into parking space with acres of room. You guessed it, another L plater. I couldn't believe that someone with such a basic lack of driving comprehension would put herself behind a wheel.


  • #74
    alrightcuz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭alrightcuz


    a 98 toyota would have a 3 star rate and 09 would have a 5 star rate, a 98 civic would have 2 stars and a 09 would have a 5 star rate,, the major improvements in cars have been the design if a 98 car hit a pedestrian at any speed that person is in serious trouble if 09 hits a pedestrian the car is designed to spread out the impact minamizeing the damage making it safer for the pedestrian,so is less likely to be seriously hurt,,, the result of this is any kind of a tip the car has to be repaired thats why insurance clams have gone up as the old saying goes they dont make um like they used to,,,, they make them safer, and back to the point at hand the hole system is out dated after 5 years everyone should be retested after all its only the learners causing the crashes so no one should have a problem. id say a 98% fail rate myself the 2% are the learners


  • #75
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I'm being told that the cops aren't really too interested in enforcing the new legislation.

    Can anyone confirm this?

    Even and consistant enforcement must be the only way to ensure maximum compliance surely?
    seen loads of learner drivers on their own. and saw a learner driver overtake around three cars on a county stretch around a fortnight ago.


  • #76
    BrigR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭BrigR


    Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!


  • #77
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    BrigR wrote: »
    Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!
    no but a lot of them are


  • #78
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    BrigR wrote: »
    Is every unaccompanied driver in a car with L plates really a Learner Driver? We, and I'm sure lots of other families, have sticky L plates that stay on the car no matter who drives it. So the unaccompanied driver is actually the one that holds the full license. I only know one family- recently returned from the UK- that uses magnetic L plates and go through the trouble of fastening them every time the Learner Driver takes over!

    That is the correct way of doing it.

    How am I to know if it is a learner driver driving, or a driver with a full licence (and 20 years experience) driving.

    When I see 'L' plates in a car, I assume it is a learner driver.


  • #79
    alrightcuz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭alrightcuz


    just because you passed the test doesn't make you a good driver and doesn't mean that, that's it your finished. driving is on going it only takes one stupid mistake,ive been in cars with learners who failed there test and are very good drivers and ive been in cars with fully licensed people who have been qualified 4-5 years and ive actually feared for my life any bit of open road and there off,


  • #80
    Mena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Well, from an enforcement point-of-view, apparently there have already been 6000 fines issued, according to an article in the Independent.
    The Independent wrote:
    THOUSANDS of learner drivers face having to pay fines of up to €1,000 after being caught driving alone or without having an 'L' plate displayed.

    The Irish Independent can reveal that gardai have caught almost 6,000 provisional licence holders breaking tough new laws introduced on July 1 last year.

    I note the "of up to €1000.00" fines... I thought the minimum was €1000.00?


  • #81
    John Mason
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭John Mason


    I bought my OH plastic plates taht you wet and stick them to the window, so i can take off easy.

    i forgot to take them off one morning going to work. i had an horrendous journey into work. i was shaking by the time i got in.

    i had cars so close to me, they were pratically sitting in the car with me, the mil-second the lights changed cars were beeping, one nut job kept trying to over-take me on a very road which only had enough space for car.

    i only realised later in the day when i was getting something from the booth that the L's were still up - the attitude of road users is shocking

    i can tell you, i never forgot to take the L's down again.

    it was normal service after i took the L's down

    this country really should be ashamed of themselves


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  • #82
    Sunjammer
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Sunjammer


    pink fluffy bunny wrote: »
    i had cars so close to me, they were pratically sitting in the car with me, the mil-second the lights changed cars were beeping, one nut job kept trying to over-take me on a very road which only had enough space for car.

    i only realised later in the day when i was getting something from the booth that the L's were still up - the attitude of road users is shocking

    i can tell you, i never forgot to take the L's down again.

    it was normal service after i took the L's down

    this country really should be ashamed of themselves

    I though it was just me some idiots see an L plate like a red rag to a bull I have had idiots pass me on the wrong lane on roundabouts pull out pass and cut in at a junction but the best is these clowns that spot the plate then scream past you then slow down so you have to slow down...

    A friend of mine is in the traffic corp and was telling me when he drives the unmarked speed car he loves these idiots who race up behind him and sit in his back seat he said he gives a few gentle tugs on his hand brake forcing them into taking evasive action then he pulls em :D


  • #83
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #84
    Noobsaibot21
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭Noobsaibot21


    They should change a few rules for learner permits. I can understand the frustration of building up experience and trying to get a full licence holder free to help out. It's not that easy to "book" someone on these occasions or if you rely on your car for work (especially in these tough times). Perhaps learners should only be allowed by law to drive Tata's or Fiat Cinquecento's (or something equally rubbish) until they get their full licence? Alone or accompanied, that's incentive :D.

    Also, with the exception of professional sports drivers, nobody under 26 should be allowed to get high powered cars or kits (in a vain attempt) to increase the performance of average cars - I'm looking at Honda Civic's and Toyota Celica's here. If they weren't planning on speeding, why spend all that cash on trying to make it look fast? Why not just get a Mondeo? Comfy, Spacious, cheap and is a pleasure to drive (no, I dont work for Ford).

    As for the fines, while i'm sure Gardai would enforce these rules on everyone, as long as your 10-2 and not driving (or acting) like a tool, you'd get away with it. While it will never be officially uttered, i'm sure that Gardai would rather target the stereotypical boy racer in a Skyline than someone driving safely and sensibly (who happers to have an LP). And rightly so in my humble opinion. I was chuffed to read an article in the Indo on Thursday re: tinted windows and overly loud exhausts:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boy-racers-face-threat-of-jail-in-garda-crackdown-1826481.html

    It's drivers like these which give regular provisional licence holders, who drive sensibly and are only prov because they are waiting for the RSA to get their arses in gear, a bad rep

    And with regards to the L plates raging bull syndrome, that's why I took mine down. I work in motor insurance and know exactly where liability would rest if someone hit me so I rarely let impatient drivers "bully me" on the roads L plates or not. One of my mates gave me the best advice out of anyone when I started driving:

    "Other drivers, Cyclists, Motor cycles, pedestrians - assume everyone is stupid."

    For example, someone might inch out of a side road so much that it would leave me minimal room to pass. I'd assume they were stupid and let them out (grudgingly). Even though I know I had right of way, i'd rather just give them a beep or a stern look as opposed to crashing (despite the principle).

    I have my test at the end of the month in Raheny - Only booked it last month - a rare bit of quick work on the RSA's part. Hope I get it. :)


  • #85
    SuperDude87
    Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭SuperDude87


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »
    That's a myth usually peddled by those who have been unsuccessful. You need to have had several "slighest little things" in different categories and combinations before failing a test.

    No one fails a driving test on "the slightest little thing".


    Sorry I don't agree.

    My mother is the best driver I know. She failed her test twice before passing. Why? Because the tester she got was horrible, asking questions that didn't even exist for her theory questions and unrightfully marking her down in areas.

    They are in the minority but they do exist because quotas exist so I don't believe if 50 people were eligable to pass 50 people would because there a some power ridden eejits out there testing.


  • #86
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    SuperDude87 wrote: »
    My mother is the best driver I know
    That doesn't mean she is a good driver.

    SuperDude87 wrote:
    Why? Because the tester she got was horrible, asking questions that didn't even exist for her theory questions
    How do you know? Were you present?

    Many people who are unsuccessful tend to blame the system and bend the truth somewhat to justify themselves and to make others believe that they were treated unfairly.

    It's just human nature and happens in all aspects of society. It's the same with job/promotion interviews. Have you never heard those who were unsuccessful at interviews saying that they got awful questions that weren't relevant? There questions were probably the same as other candidates but they didn't show the same ability at answering them.

    But you will rarely hear individual complaints about written examinations for the simple reason that the questions are there for all to see and the unsuccessful person has little opportunity to express personal discrimination.

    And why is it always the ones who fail who get these 'horrible' testers? Surely, on the law of averages, those who pass, must also meet these 'horrible' testers?

    SuperDude87 wrote:
    they do exist because quotas exist
    SuperDude87 wrote:
    so I don't believe if 50 people were eligable to pass 50 people would
    If 50 people successfully demonstrated their competence, of course they would all pass. However, we live in a diverse society. It it is extremely unlikely that those 50 people would present themselves at a driving test centre where there are no other candidates. Everything boils down to averages at the end of the day. On average about half those who do a test will not pass.

    That average is relatively similar throughout the country like lots of other averages in our society. That doesn't mean that a 'quota' exists.


  • #87
    Posy
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    I agree and disagree with the 'slightest little thing' remark.
    I think Wishbone Ash is right. There is a good system of grading and if you get a certain amount of grade twos or one grade three you fail, fair and square. You can see the sheet and it will show the person exactly what they did wrong.
    However, one thing people do fail on is nerves unfortunately, which is a shame. Some people could be a very competent driver but put them in a test situation and they fall apart. Obviously this is not the testers fault, they can't assume 'well, he went through a red light, but sure he's probably just nervous' but it can be a pity and frustrating as nerves are something you can't control. :(

    As for enforcement of the L laws, I'm in two minds. I think guards should be more lenient on a learner in the cul-de-sac of a housing estate practicing turnabouts than a learner speeding down the motorway unaccompanied. But does that mean the guards should let someone drive away if they're only a little bit over the alcohol limit?
    I think it's up to the guard to use his/her own judgement with L drivers as they're the ones who will have to live with the guilt if that person causes an accident or kills themself after being allowed drive away.


  • #88
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #89
    Posy
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    Indeed. Passing the test (especially on the first attempt) can make many people cocky and think they are fantastic drivers just because they made it through 40 or so minutes without mucking up. Driving is a life long learning experience and a huge responsibility, not one that can be fully assessed in a driving test and certainly not one to be taken for granted.


  • #90
    tomtom66
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭tomtom66


    I have a provisional License and since 2010 when i started driving, i only been stopped once for no Tax disc.. ok yes my fault and i got a 60 euro Fine.. but i thought the whole idea of driving your own car was have your own Insurance and pay for tax.. i live alone and no parents to go around with me.. So since im paying my way.. So what right have the gardai with respect to them, can they do ... im doing what the LAW wants me to do to my best intent... drive safely and pay for my car..


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  • #91
    Faith+1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Faith+1


    tomtom66 wrote: »
    I have a provisional License and since 2010 when i started driving, i only been stopped once for no Tax disc.. ok yes my fault and i got a 60 euro Fine.. but i thought the whole idea of driving your own car was have your own Insurance and pay for tax.. i live alone and no parents to go around with me.. So since im paying my way.. So what right have the gardai with respect to them, can they do ... im doing what the LAW wants me to do to my best intent... drive safely and pay for my car..

    No you're not Tom. The law was changed back in 2008 which stipulated that all learner drivers must be accompanied at all times by a full licence holder. Paying for road tax and insurance has nothing to do with this law.


  • #92
    paddyland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    Just because someone is driving under a Learner's Permit, doesn't mean they are learning. They are driving their car, motoring from A to B, maybe driving well, or more likely driving disgracefully. But most of the time, from what I see, they are not LEARNING.

    An attitude prevails, that once you know which pedal to go, and which pedal to stop, and can steer without bouncing off the first kerb you see, that you have 'learnt' to drive, and that everything else is an irrelevance. People with such an attitude, in my opinion, cannot be educated to drive, because their mind is closed. They see it as irrelevant.

    Enforcing the L plate rule would be one thing. Bringing in a harder test would be another. However, having seen the standard of driving of some cars without L plates, I am firmly of the opinion that there are drivers out there who have never passed a test, display no L plates, and have no notion of doing either.

    But as long as everyone is forced to 'slow down,' and driving standards are dumbed down across the board, then we can 'hide' the fact that we don't enforce good driving standards. There's something rotten in the system.


  • #93
    MattHelders
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭MattHelders


    I'm a Learner Driver and I am just wondering if, when I'm driving alone, should I take my L plates down so the Gardai mighn't stop me or leave them up and just hope they don't?


  • #94
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    MattHelders wrote: »
    I'm a Learner Driver and I am just wondering if, when I'm driving alone, should I take my L plates down so the Gardai mighn't stop me or leave them up and just hope they don't?
    Common sense would indicate that you take them down

    However we dont advise you to break the law on this forum ;):p


  • #95
    Yuri
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭Yuri


    Faith+1 wrote: »
    No you're not Tom. The law was changed back in 2008 which stipulated that all learner drivers must be accompanied at all times by a full licence holder. Paying for road tax and insurance has nothing to do with this law.


    Can you provide a link to back this up? I've read this whole forum and a lot seems to based on opinions not on facts.

    I'm currently in an argument with a friend about learner drivers being caught unaccompanied, the fines they get and a few other related points so I'm looking for solid evidence. The information is almost near impossible to find but interestingly I have found out that you CANT get penalty points for driving unaccompanied but you can still get points for other offences if you are a learner driver.

    List of penalty point offences: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf


  • #96
    loobylou
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭loobylou


    Yuri wrote: »
    Can you provide a link to back this up? I've read this whole forum and a lot seems to based on opinions not on facts.

    There was a strange anomaly up to a few years ago where learners had to be accompanied on their first, third and any subsequent provisional licences but were allowed to drive alone on their second.
    It was something of a throwback to the days when it might take up to a year to get a test appointment. The " logic" of it was to allow people who deemed themselves to be test ready to drive alone.
    To acquire a third or more more provisional licence you needed to have sat a driving test and failed, thus putting you back in the learner category and needing to be accompanied again.
    It was a uniquely Irish system.


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  • #97
    Kathyo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Kathyo


    I have been stopped in the last week at a checkpoint,insurance, tax etc weren't checked. But they did check that I had a full license and specifically told me they were checking for people driving on learner licenses alone. So obviously the law is being enforced to some degree.

    I also don't condone learners driving alone, and certainly don't think they should drive with no plates just so they don't get caught.
    I've been behind people doing just that. People who have obviously been driving only a few weeks and its just dangerous. They can just about drive, i.e are capable of moving the car and steering, and might not get the leeway (in terms of distance and caution from other drivers) that learner drivers should get!


  • #98
    clanard
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭clanard


    OK this might be a silly question but is a Learner Permit holder insured to drive alone. Its ok having a small tip when a full licence holder in the passenger seat but would the Learner be covered if they are driving alone and have an accident???


  • #99
    starlit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,344 ✭✭✭✭starlit


    No a learner driver isn't insured to drive on their own they are only insured to drive as long as they have an accompany driver holds a 2 year full drivers licence. It be part of the policy as far as I know not just for rules of the road purposes. You get no money or no compensation if you have an accident while driving on your own without an accompany driver if the insurance is only in your name if its on the name of the full licence/accompany holder then you might be ok and get some claim, you'd have to clarify with the insurance company.


  • #100
    Speedy199
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Speedy199


    doovdela wrote: »
    No a learner driver isn't insured to drive on their own they are only insured to drive as long as they have an accompany driver holds a 2 year full drivers licence. It be part of the policy as far as I know not just for rules of the road purposes. You get no money or no compensation if you have an accident while driving on your own without an accompany driver if the insurance is only in your name if its on the name of the full licence/accompany holder then you might be ok and get some claim, you'd have to clarify with the insurance company.

    Actually i would say its the other way around if you crash on your own insurance you will get compensation but if you crashed while driving alone under the full licenced drivers insurance you will get none.


  • #101
    Alanstrainor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,157 ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    doovdela wrote: »
    No a learner driver isn't insured to drive on their own they are only insured to drive as long as they have an accompany driver holds a 2 year full drivers licence. It be part of the policy as far as I know not just for rules of the road purposes. You get no money or no compensation if you have an accident while driving on your own without an accompany driver if the insurance is only in your name if its on the name of the full licence/accompany holder then you might be ok and get some claim, you'd have to clarify with the insurance company.

    THIS IS NOT TRUE!

    This is being covered over in motors at the minute. Have a read. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056584325


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