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Waller Cup 2015

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    #32
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    A bottle of good red the night before with a good steak dinner, is as good a reason as any for me to sit at the back : ).


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    #33
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    Bit of a mad race alright. I got caught behind the first crash in A3 but chased back on alright. I think the move had gone when I made contact though - only myself to blame for sitting too far back in the bunch. The second crash was strange as we were only tipping along. I got through that OK.

    Agreed on the lack of organisation amongst team mates (my club included). There was no proper chase today and the last 4 laps were like a sportive. Having said that, as a general sniffer out of opportunities to get away, I'm glad that's the case! More broadly, I think the juniors have the bunch totally intimidated/demoralised. All I could hear at the start line were whispers of "NRPT have the whole team here today" etc etc!

    All in all, glad in the circumstances to get home in the bunch and in one piece.


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    #34
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    But... A4 riders who come on here are told to do as little work as possible? Stay up near the front, never at the front? A3 seems to be the same advice, now people are giving out because they do that? I've been in races where a particular club tries to control a race.. SERC GP last year for example... SERC were blantantly trying to get one of their guys the win. They started blocking lads off and slowing down the peleton while their team mates domintated... as the only rider for my "team" in that race, it got super annoying that they could do it by numbers... thems the breaks I know... but it's just a pain in the arse. I got pretty pissed off in that race and managed my only point because of anger adrenaline, but there's enough putting me off racing without that lark.


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    #35
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    Lucan did that in the waller last year, i remember going to the front and telling one of them (with a smile on my face) that they could not keep it up forever and then attacking just for the craic...............when the same lad caught me his reply was "Neither can you" Touche!! He eventually started to work with me when he saw i wasn,t giving up and we got a good chase group going and caught the break, so you never know what can happen when you try!


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    #36
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,418 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    keoclassic wrote: »
    Lucan did that in the waller last year, i remember going to the front and telling one of them (with a smile on my face) that they could not keep it up forever and then attacking just for the craic...............when the same lad caught me his reply was "Neither can you" Touche!! He eventually started to work with me when he saw i wasn,t giving up and we got a good chase group going and caught the break, so you never know what can happen when you try!

    Well Lucan did get the win in the A4 last year :p


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    #37
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    hammerheadjack wrote: »
    I kinda agree that there should be no designated leaders etc at that level, and A3/A4 racing has been like that all along, but still baffeled with all the exposure to cycling that people have these days how riders are content to sit in the bunch with everyone expecting everyone else to do the work. At yesterdays race it was very noticable. A flat course, 90K and good sized bunch should have been able to organise themselves. The break formed early with all the prizes taken, and apart from a few riders everyone was happy to ride around together. I was just wondering why bother to run the risk of crashes and sit at the back, why not spend time on the front and blow your lights. At least you would have had a good days training.

    There can be a tendency in A3/4 that if a break goes, a kind of 'you chase- ah no, you go- ah go on, after you' atmosphere unless a team/club make a concerted effort. It does mean that some riders simply have to sacrifice themselves for the sake of getting a good day of racing with no prize at the end. I have been that soldier a few times and since I don't have a big club/team, then I might as well chase. Unless I have a team mate up ahead, I don't care who is in the break, I may as well ride. And plenty A3s will do the same once an experienced head starts roaring and organising things.


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    #38
    Dillonryan99
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Dillonryan99


    I was in the A3 bunch yesterday after the first lap it was very relaxed and no one willing to chase but the crash towards the end happened at the front of the bunch and was a bit strange, does anyone have the video of the finish of the main A3 group yesterday?


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    #39
    hammerheadjack
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭hammerheadjack


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    But... A4 riders who come on here are told to do as little work as possible? Stay up near the front, never at the front? A3 seems to be the same advice, now people are giving out because they do that? I've been in races where a particular club tries to control a race.. SERC GP last year for example... SERC were blantantly trying to get one of their guys the win. They started blocking lads off and slowing down the peleton while their team mates domintated... as the only rider for my "team" in that race, it got super annoying that they could do it by numbers... thems the breaks I know... but it's just a pain in the arse. I got pretty pissed off in that race and managed my only point because of anger adrenaline, but there's enough putting me off racing without that lark.

    Thats one way of looking at it and not burning matches or whatever other metaphore you care to use. But there is also the fact that yesterday the race was over with the prizes all up the road and even though the break had 2 min with three laps to go it was still salvageable on that flat course if someone had the wherewithal to marshal the troops. There was nothing to loose by contributing to a bit of momentum for a chase. When its lined out everyone is working hard, and all would have had a decent workout at the very least.
    Not giving out just curious to hear from those in the race what they thought.


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    #40
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    Your right, but sometimes those lads are tired, be it from work, family or whatever and are just as happy to sit in, did you try to rally the troops at any stage yourself? It does not always need to be an experienced rider who directs things, just someone with a bit of fire in their belly at that time!

    ( Not saying that your not an experienced rider by the way:) )


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    #41
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,418 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    In A3 a lot of the time from what I hear within the club and also on here that unless Lucan do the chasing then there generally is damn all of a chase within the races in Leinster. Problem is this year that Lucan nearly always have one or two in the break and then obviously they aren't going to chase. Last week in Bellewstown Lucan had nobody in the break and thus launched the chase that brought the break back. Worked as Lucan got 3rd in the gallop at the end.


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    #42
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    hammerheadjack wrote: »
    Thats one way of looking at it and not burning matches or whatever other metaphore you care to use. But there is also the fact that yesterday the race was over with the prizes all up the road and even though the break had 2 min with three laps to go it was still salvageable on that flat course if someone had the wherewithal to marshal the troops. There was nothing to loose by contributing to a bit of momentum for a chase. When its lined out everyone is working hard, and all would have had a decent workout at the very least.
    Not giving out just curious to hear from those in the race what they thought.

    Ah, I know... I'd agree, but sometimes it's a catch-22


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    #43
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    Held off on saying anything too much until someone else kicked off...

    I haven't ridden that many road races since I moved away from Ireland in 2013, apart from Bellewstown last weekend and Waller cup this weekend just gone, but it was highly negative.

    I followed wheels early on, thought I was being smart trying to land myself in a move with a lucan rider, and in doing so missed the one that stuck, don't blame anyone else for that, but I jumped with 4 others to try and catch back on, we made headway, got within about 4 or 5 bike lengths of the back of the break and lads just started sitting on. There were 2 or 3 of us actually working, a Barrow rider and an Orwell junior. What's the point like, either contribute or f*ck off, so I gave up contributing and let it go back to the bunch. I'd rather miss the break than give a couple of sandbaggers a free ride across.

    I tried a few more times, I was with one of the NRPT lads that spent the guts of a lap trying to get across to the move, but low and behold we were closed down by pointless chases again.

    That comment "Why would the 2 juniors be trying to go across anyways? To bring the peloton over to the break... eejits." Bridging across to a break is a bit different to dragging the peloton last time I checked, but am open to correction...

    The time I spent in the bunch frustrated me, lads were aimlessly going to the front and drilling it when a couple of lads tried to get up the road, dragging the bunch with them. I am sure this is what happened any time I was with others trying to create a gap. They're obviously strong, but why not try and get a gap and THEN use their strength, rather than closing down moves? If it's a workout they want, go and do a training spin, don't race negatively! And then when some of them do get into a move/chase with a gap, they just sit on?! Come on lads!

    I am under no illusion that I'm a good rider, if I was I'd be out of A3, but it still baffles me how people call dragging the bunch around and closing down moves aimlessly "racing."

    Lucan do it right, but they have the numbers and experience to get away with it. When I raced in Bellewstown a team mate got into the move and I busted myself closing down any chase to let their gap go out, but yesterday lads were just closing down chases, though I'm not sure why.

    That's just my view from being in the race yesterday....


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    #44
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    Also, blaming steak and wine isn't an excuse, I got a taxi outside sam's bar on dawson street at 4am Saturday night / Sunday morning with a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me, and was able to stick my nose into the wind a few times :pac:


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    #45
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    colm_gti wrote: »
    Also, blaming steak and wine isn't an excuse, I got a taxi outside sam's bar on dawson street at 4am Saturday night / Sunday morning with a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me, and was able to stick my nose into the wind a few times :pac:

    Then you are a stronger man than I. Pity you were out......In the words of declan moffet you probably should have won it! : )


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    #46
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    keoclassic wrote: »
    Then you are a stronger man than I. Pity you were out......In the words of declan moffet you probably should have won it! : )

    My only saving grace was that I was probably still a bit drunk at the start line :rolleyes:


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    #47
    keoclassic
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭keoclassic


    Well at least if you came down it probably wouldn't have knocked a stir out of ya..............was that you with the hip flask in your bottle cage ; )


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    #48
    Arthurdaly
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭Arthurdaly


    Might the reason for all the crashes be that half the peleton is pissed or hungover?


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    #49
    bcmf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    colm_gti wrote: »
    .....a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me .....
    No wonder nobody would work with ya. The stink of booze of ya :pac:


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    #50
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    Arthurdaly wrote: »
    Might the reason for all the crashes be that half the peletons is posses or hungover?

    Nah it seems most of the crashes happened mid bunch, sure all the hangovers are at the back.


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    #51
    hammerheadjack
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭hammerheadjack


    To get back to my quest for an understanding of what I saw yesterday, rather than an insight into the pre-race preparation tactics of half an irish A3 peleton. :-)...

    "The time I spent in the bunch frustrated me, lads were aimlessly going to the front and drilling it when a couple of lads tried to get up the road, dragging the bunch with them."

    I think that is what I am trying to get an answer to. Is it that the riders who are strong enough to chase down an attack just dont know how to jump to the attack without dragging the whole peleton with them?

    "I am sure this is what happened any time I was with others trying to create a gap."
    Yes it sure was. Riders freewheeling up the drags would flood forward everytime an attack got more than 5 seconds. Dragging the whole peleton in their wake as they rolled forward.

    Just to come clean I was driving one of the support cars and saw the race from that vantage point. We had a rider in the break. I guess I was surprised because I expected a chase of some sort at some stage. I don't race anymore, but see a lot of races.

    My point is that there were plenty of strong riders there, but they seemed to be totally focused on closing down moves, rather than trying to get into them. This gives the impression of negative racing but I' m sure those riders would feel that they were simply trying to get across to riders trying to escape oblivious to the fact that they were wasting their time and energy by dragging everyone with them.


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    #52
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    colm_gti wrote: »
    I jumped with 4 others to try and catch back on, we made headway, got within about 4 or 5 bike lengths of the back of the break and lads just started sitting on. There were 2 or 3 of us actually working, a Barrow rider and an Orwell junior. What's the point like, either contribute or f*ck off, so I gave up contributing and let it go back to the bunch. I'd rather miss the break than give a couple of sandbaggers a free ride across.


    I am under no illusion that I'm a good rider, if I was I'd be out of A3

    Thats a bit harsh Col but thats your perspective, myself and the young orwell guy struck out to get across and were after giving it all when you guys came up to us i was blowing out my hole I'm 53 fff, so your sandbagging was my hanging on for dear life do think i wouldn't have give it if had it to close that last 20m ,i would have then recovered and contributed to the group as i always do but we will never know now

    As to the current state of A3 imo it has become the junior race with A3 just making up the numbers look at the different it made at the Drogheda Wheelers race when the top kids were at the visit nenagh

    You Meddling Kids


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    #53
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    We can all agree that 'chasing after the chasers' if you don't have a team mate up the road is fairly pointless and can be described as negative.


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    #54
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    killalanerr wrote: »
    Thats a bit harsh Col but thats your perspective, myself and the young orwell guy struck out to get across and were after giving it all when you guys came up to us i was blowing out my hole I'm 53 fff, so your sandbagging was my hanging on for dear life do think i wouldn't have give it if had it to close that last 20m ,i would have then recovered and contributed to the group as i always do but we will never know now

    As to the current state of A3 imo it has become the junior race with A3 just making up the numbers look at the different it made at the Drogheda Wheelers race when the top kids were at the visit nenagh

    You Meddling Kids

    Haha sorry man, was just going away on a bit of a rant. Didn't realise you were there, are you not with Swords anymore? As far as I can remember there was a barrow wheeler, orwell junior, chap in red/white kit, and maybe one more?

    I get that people get tired and skip turns, but there was definitely one or two sitting on and contributing nothing, and then when everyone starts to skip turns it just goes to sh1t.


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    #55
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    hammerheadjack wrote: »
    My point is that there were plenty of strong riders there, but they seemed to be totally focused on closing down moves, rather than trying to get into them. This gives the impression of negative racing but I' m sure those riders would feel that they were simply trying to get across to riders trying to escape oblivious to the fact that they were wasting their time and energy by dragging everyone with them.

    I think this is it in essence, a lot of super strong riders don't actually realise what it takes to create a gap. And I think this is why a lot of people resort to sitting in, because the above riders will do the work to reel anything back in.

    I'll stop ranting before I offend anyone else...


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    #56
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,418 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    I look at the juniors in our club and week after week they just keep attacking until a break sticks. None of this going and then looking behind to see what is happening behind them. Head down, empty the tank for a few mins to see what break/lead they can establish. If they get caught then the next one goes. Awesome to see them in action after the savage training they put in over the winter. Lads who were climbers are now well able to win inn sprints and the lad who is mainly a sprinter can now climb and stay in the group. Senior lads trying to bridge start looking over their shoulder rather than basically getting into time trial mode for a few mins. Once the bridge has been made then you can sit on and recover for a few minutes.


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    #57
    wav1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭wav1


    hammerheadjack wrote: »
    true about Lucan, and true that it can have its drawbacks. There were 13 of them at Ras Mayo and it kindof controlled things a bit too much :-)
    But didn't place a single rider in top 10 GC
    Cant really blame the majority of A3s TBH as the strong men of the race are the juniors and if like y/day there are 4 of them up the road,they would feel very little point in chasing,as if the junction was made there were at least another four ready to take their place up the road.
    I really hope that we are nearing a scenario when we can have stand alone Jun races.This will improve the A3 racing as the real A3 riders will feel they are on more of a level playing field,and be prepared to give it a lash maybe a bit more,with the knowledge that there are no strong juniors towing the bunch up to them.Until we get to that stage I still feel its the best place for lads of that age,as the alternative is A1 racing for them.From now on Nat Coaches etc will be putting them in to some A1 races and others will be going off to do exams etc,and you will probably have more open A3 races.
    As I said I really hope we get to the jun only races in the next few yrs.Nearly 70 U16s with us last week,so they will move up if they can be retained in the sport.
    I reckon 70 plus Irish riders in JT this year.


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    #58
    Raymzor
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Raymzor


    Video of A4 finish on clonard facebook page
    Irish Raven wrote: »
    Anyone riding in the a4 bunch know that there was 4 lads up the road....seemed to me like the lead car was infront of bunch and no time gaps were given?

    Also lots of a3 and juniors in bunch on 2nd lap till finish....some a2s also.....one junior in particular was lethal and caused an accident!!

    Bad crash also after finish line, hope the two lads are ok!!


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    #59
    colm_gti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭colm_gti


    On that note wav1, contrary to most people being unhappy with the junior presence in A3, I actually quite like racing against them. In fact, in most cases their eagerness to get into moves makes the race. If only points could be awarded to top 10 A3's as opposed to top 10 overall we'd be laughing.

    I understand that the issue lies with creating more work and not being able to be accurate with placing A3 riders in the event of a sprint, but I'd rather see them try, and make mistakes, than not try at all. And how is it that there can be a list of top 10 unplaced A2's in an A1/2 event, yet it's too hard to capture to 10 A3's in an A3/junior event?

    But I guess this is the age old discussion and doesn't belong in this thread :)


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    #60
    Raymzor
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Raymzor


    Sean Rowe facebook page

    A4droppedalot wrote: »
    Any pictures up from the race???


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    #61
    wav1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭wav1


    colm_gti wrote: »
    On that note wav1, contrary to most people being unhappy with the junior presence in A3, I actually quite like racing against them. In fact, in most cases their eagerness to get into moves makes the race. If only points could be awarded to top 10 A3's as opposed to top 10 overall we'd be laughing.

    I understand that the issue lies with creating more work and not being able to be accurate with placing A3 riders in the event of a sprint, but I'd rather see them try, and make mistakes, than not try at all. And how is it that there can be a list of top 10 unplaced A2's in an A1/2 event, yet it's too hard to capture to 10 A3's in an A3/junior event?

    But I guess this is the age old discussion and doesn't belong in this thread :)
    For what its worth I fully agree


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