Waller Cup 2015

Irish Raven

Anyone riding in the a4 bunch know that there was 4 lads up the road....seemed to me like the lead car was infront of bunch and no time gaps were given?

Also lots of a3 and juniors in bunch on 2nd lap till finish....some a2s also.....one junior in particular was lethal and caused an accident!!

Bad crash also after finish line, hope the two lads are ok!!

Pablo Rubio

A3 was a real crash fest today. I'm being polite when I say it was silly ridng. a lot of guys not concentrating.

wirelessdude01

Was two up the road at one stage, joined by two more and then another two. They never got more than 10seconds up the road.

JK.BMC

Irish Raven wrote: »

Anyone riding in the a4 bunch know that there was 4 lads up the road....seemed to me like the lead car was infront of bunch and no time gaps were given?

Also lots of a3 and juniors in bunch on 2nd lap till finish....some a2s also.....one junior in particular was lethal and caused an accident!!

Bad crash also after finish line, hope the two lads are ok!!

The best thing to say is that the race committee have a serious amount of 'review' to do after today's races.
I felt bad beforehand, got dropped after 10km in A3, thought about abandoning, but went for lap 2, got caught by A4 and let them pass, yet still nearly got taken down by a rider at the back who was riding like a drunkard. Plus the 2 dozen or so gel wrappers that were flung in the ditch and on the road by the A4 group in a 5 minute spell that I followed them for, kinda pxxxxd me off too.
Pulled over after that. Not an enjoyable day, though my clubmates all came home in one piece, in spite of various incidents

Irish Raven

wirelessdude01 wrote:

Was two up the road at one stage, joined by two more and then another two. They never got more than 10seconds up the road.

10seconds.... Strange in some of the long viewing road I never saw a group with a car in front... I think the car in front of our bunch should of been in front of the break away.... Crazy stuff.... If I had of known that n others too, I think I might of chased!!! Instead I thought I crossed the line, thinking I was happy to get the upgrade with where I thought I placed... Only to be told about the breakaway 4... Doh.... Lesson learned for twiddling thumbs at back on first lap 😡

Irish Raven

I think there was carnage in every race.... And a lot of casualties!! I must say, it was a nice circuit though, roads were quiet n decent, gravel swept off course in most places, unlike other races were its swept onto course.... Nice kick at finish...if something like that on circuit, would of split group up nicely each lap!!

colm_gti

I foolishly started halfway down the bunch and had to make a massive effort to get to the front section of the bunch straight away. The A3 bunch was ridiculously big.

Dont know what the story was with the crashes. The first crash happened behind me, and the second in front of me, god knows what happened, we were only rolling along for the second one.

Raymzor

The guys who were 1st and 3rd in a4 race were not off the front so any gap they got was going around the last corner

Irish Raven wrote: »

Anyone riding in the a4 bunch know that there was 4 lads up the road....seemed to me like the lead car was infront of bunch and no time gaps were given?

Also lots of a3 and juniors in bunch on 2nd lap till finish....some a2s also.....one junior in particular was lethal and caused an accident!!

Bad crash also after finish line, hope the two lads are ok!!

Stevieg2009

The crash after the finish in the A4 was caused by an opened car door as far as I know went down just in front of me a couple of the fallers were hospitalised but as far as I know are ok

Irish Raven

Raymzor wrote:

The guys who were 1st and 3rd in a4 race were not off the front so any gap they got was going around the last corner

I went around the corner in 2nd position... Finished in 5th position of the sprint....4 had been across the line before the we turned the corner...I was also on the front or near from 2km out and nobody went off front from group.... They were up road! My sister was at the race and said they were in break from 1st lap!

Raymzor

They must have been caught on the line. First and third were beside me on the straight to corner. Good sprinting lad

Irish Raven wrote: »

I went around the corner in 2nd position... Finished in 5th position of the sprint....4 had been across the line before the we turned the corner...I was also on the front or near from 2km out and nobody went off front from group.... They were up road! My sister was at the race and said they were in break from 1st lap!

wirelessdude01

Irish Raven wrote: »

I went around the corner in 2nd position... Finished in 5th position of the sprint....4 had been across the line before the we turned the corner...I was also on the front or near from 2km out and nobody went off front from group.... They were up road! My sister was at the race and said they were in break from 1st lap!

There was no break at the end. They were well caught before the end and it all came down to the bunch sprint. If you are still in doubt at that look at the podium pictures. The guy in second place had been at the pointy end of the bunch all day and not in the break.

JK.BMC

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

There was no break at the end. They were well caught before the end and it all came down to the bunch sprint. If you are still in doubt at that look at the podium pictures. The guy in second place had been at the pointy end of the bunch all day and not in the break.

True
I stood at the final bend for a while. There was no A4 breakaway; instead a big bunch gallop to the bend at 300m. A rider in yellow (Navan/Wexford?) led around with the hounds chasing him. The confusion may have arisen due to merging of groups. The supposed 'escapees' may well have been a group dropped from A3

It got a bit confusing; at one stage, Martyn Irvine and 4 A1s came thru 40secs ahead of a chasing group of women, headed by that fine filly Brian McCrystal and a few riders with beards, while another 30 secs behind came another group of what looked like A2s

Inquitus

colm_gti wrote: »

I foolishly started halfway down the bunch and had to make a massive effort to get to the front section of the bunch straight away. The A3 bunch was ridiculously big.

Dont know what the story was with the crashes. The first crash happened behind me, and the second in front of me, god knows what happened, we were only rolling along for the second one.

Wonder how many lined up for the A3 race. On the first lap when it was lined out the bunch extended a long way. Reckon it was the biggest field this season for a one day race.

wirelessdude01

Inquitus wrote: »

Wonder how many lined up for the A3 race. On the first lap when it was lined out the bunch extended a long way. Reckon it was the biggest field this season for a one day race.

Bigger than the 200+ that started the A3 Des?

Funnily enough down in Westport the A1/2/3 only had 57 starters between all 3 categories.

JK.BMC

Inquitus wrote: »

Wonder how many lined up for the A3 race. On the first lap when it was lined out the bunch extended a long way. Reckon it was the biggest field this season for a one day race.

Not sure; but at the 3rd junction there was 22 seconds between the leader and myself - and I wasn't last at that stage; more riders behind me. We were all in a very long line. Probably a bit too big, but that's the way A3 racing is this season.

A4droppedalot

Any pictures up from the race???

De Bhál

Biggest A3 bunch i've seen and i don't know how people have to nerve to sit in a bunch that size, ditch to ditch, going 40 average. i got caught behind a crash early on and was almost glad to be out of it. Still completed it with 6 or 7 others.
Probably says more about my nerve than the race.

Thanks to Bohermeen for holding this race - very well run.

keoclassic

Did the A3 bunch reduce considerably in numbers by the finish or am I mistaken? I pretty much sat at the back out of the way for the entire race, which was a bit of a balls because it meant getting caught behind all the crashes and having to chase back on each time.I cant say I enjoyed it much, alot of stupid riding yesterday, the bunch last week was just as big I think and much better behaved!

Stevoog

A couple of guys jumped off the front but nothing stuck for long. I was 4th or 5 th coming around the last corner and got 2nd in the sprint.

onimpulse

As we all know cycle racing has been having some "issues" lately... I was really disappointed yesterday to see the behaviour of some of those racing. The sport is already struggling to get races on, so you'd think when races go ahead everyone racing would make an effort to behave themselves where possible.

Going to the toilet in the gateway of private houses meters from the start / finish line, littering etc don't exactly help the future of the sport. These clowns clearly don't care if complaints are made and future races are canceled. Pity for the rest of us.

butterworth

Can anyone explain to me what happened that caused the first A3 crash? I was towards the back of the pile-up I guess, slowed down enough to not be hurt but not enough to stay upright!

The most likely scenario I can come up with is that whoever got knocked into the ditch was half wheeling, and their wheel was knocked by someone in front possibly trying to move up. Considering the size of the field and the width of the road, if that was the case then it was some very poor decision making.

Inquitus

butterworth wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what happened that caused the first A3 crash? I was towards the back of the pile-up I guess, slowed down enough to not be hurt but not enough to stay upright!

The most likely scenario I can come up with is that whoever got knocked into the ditch was half wheeling, and their wheel was knocked by someone in front possibly trying to move up. Considering the size of the field and the width of the road, if that was the case then it was some very poor decision making.

No idea but by the time I cleared the carnage it was race over.

hammerheadjack

I'm hoping someone that did the A3 race and stayed to the end can answer something for me, because I'm genuinely interested in the answer. The race was over after the first lap. 8 riders motoring away with a 1 minute gap at the end of lap two. No chase from the group. The gap continued to grow in the following laps and still no organised chase despite large numbers or riders from clubs not represented in the break sitting in the bunch happy out. Time gaps were being given out a regular intervals over the loudspeakers as was at one stage a warning that the A4 were closing in and the peleton was in danger of being stopped. Is there a lack of racing knowhow that prevents clubs from sending a few of their guys to the front to drive it on? There were plenty of strong riders there able to chase the two juniors trying all day to join their teammate in the break. Once caught the race would stall again with them unwilling to drag the bunch to their teammate. There was enough organisation to muster a chase for a few lads trying to get away, but not enough to sustain it to chase the break. Just wondering why the larger clubs didnt organise a sustained chase is all.

markusz

hammerheadjack wrote: »

I'm hoping someone that did the A3 race and stayed to the end can answer something for me, because I'm genuinely interested in the answer. The race was over after the first lap. 8 riders motoring away with a 1 minute gap at the end of lap two. No chase from the group. The gap continued to grow in the following laps and still no organised chase despite large numbers or riders from clubs not represented in the break sitting in the bunch happy out. Time gaps were being given out a regular intervals over the loudspeakers as was at one stage a warning that the A4 were closing in and the peleton was in danger of being stopped. Is there a lack of racing knowhow that prevents clubs from sending a few of their guys to the front to drive it on? There were plenty of strong riders there able to chase the two juniors trying all day to join their teammate in the break. Once caught the race would stall again with them unwilling to drag the bunch to their teammate. There was enough organisation to muster a chase for a few lads trying to get away, but not enough to sustain it to chase the break. Just wondering why the larger clubs didnt organise a sustained chase is all.

I've only been in A4 (now up to A3 since yday!) but im baffled by this. Our club racers talk before the race as to who we protect and everyone else chases or paces the peleton back to the break unless we have a man up the road and in which case we sit in.
Every race we go to, usually 5 - 7 of us, we are always patted on the back afterwards for our race craft in controlling races with other clubs wishing they were us. Strong riders can win races, but cute riders & teams win more races. We controlled our race yday (not Waller) and the other big team in the bunch nearly made a hash of it by not chasing our men in breaks. Why would the 2 juniors be trying to go across anyways? To bring the peloton over to the break... eejits. if a 2nd break goes good and well but they shouldn't work in it. Its up to whoever doesn't have a man up the road to bring it back. There are a lot of individuals out there who wear club gear to get a license.
I might be totally naive by what i said but it does work out for us sometimes. Rant over

hammerheadjack

Hi Markuz. Sounds like you have a good club that is interested in racing. The A3 riders yesterday didnt seem to be. The juniors were trying to get across on their own and would get 10 -20 second gaps, they would not drag the peleton hence the stall when they would get caught. They know more than most about racing. There was nothing happening in the bunch except when trying to close them down or the one or two others willing to animate things.

RobFowl

hammerheadjack wrote: »

I'm hoping someone that did the A3 race and stayed to the end can answer something for me, because I'm genuinely interested in the answer. The race was over after the first lap. 8 riders motoring away with a 1 minute gap at the end of lap two. No chase from the group. The gap continued to grow in the following laps and still no organised chase despite large numbers or riders from clubs not represented in the break sitting in the bunch happy out.

Is there a lack of racing knowhow that prevents clubs from sending a few of their guys to the front to drive it on? There were plenty of strong riders there able to chase the two juniors trying all day to join their teammate in the break.

Just wondering why the larger clubs didnt organise a sustained chase is all.

At A3/4 level clubs are just collections of individuals riding int he same colours. Team tactics and dedicated leaders etc simply don't come into it (and really at that level neither should they).
That said at most races I've been in S3/A3/4 and Vet, there has always been a tendency to sit in and wait for someone else to do the chasing. Suspect that's something that's not going to change.

Inquitus

RobFowl wrote: »

At A3/4 level clubs are just collections of individuals riding int he same colours. Team tactics and dedicated leaders etc simply don't come into it (and really at that level neither should they).
That said at most races I've been in S3/A3/4 and Vet, there has always been a tendency to sit in and wait for someone else to do the chasing. Suspect that's something that's not going to change.

Some clubs do ride as teams and they do reap the rewards, Lucan would be a good example of this I see in Leinster each week.

keoclassic

What he said, its about enjoyment at A3/A4 and it should not descend/ascend into that level of tactic...............its a bit like a collection of older young lads all chasing the ball around the pitch! Still..........I enjoy it, there is nothing stopping any man going to the front and trying to round up a few for a chase, Ive often done it myself to boohiss until the break is caught and then the same lads patting you on the back.

hammerheadjack

I kinda agree that there should be no designated leaders etc at that level, and A3/A4 racing has been like that all along, but still baffeled with all the exposure to cycling that people have these days how riders are content to sit in the bunch with everyone expecting everyone else to do the work. At yesterdays race it was very noticable. A flat course, 90K and good sized bunch should have been able to organise themselves. The break formed early with all the prizes taken, and apart from a few riders everyone was happy to ride around together. I was just wondering why bother to run the risk of crashes and sit at the back, why not spend time on the front and blow your lights. At least you would have had a good days training.

hammerheadjack

true about Lucan, and true that it can have its drawbacks. There were 13 of them at Ras Mayo and it kindof controlled things a bit too much :-)

keoclassic

A bottle of good red the night before with a good steak dinner, is as good a reason as any for me to sit at the back : ).

manwithaplan

Bit of a mad race alright. I got caught behind the first crash in A3 but chased back on alright. I think the move had gone when I made contact though - only myself to blame for sitting too far back in the bunch. The second crash was strange as we were only tipping along. I got through that OK.

Agreed on the lack of organisation amongst team mates (my club included). There was no proper chase today and the last 4 laps were like a sportive. Having said that, as a general sniffer out of opportunities to get away, I'm glad that's the case! More broadly, I think the juniors have the bunch totally intimidated/demoralised. All I could hear at the start line were whispers of "NRPT have the whole team here today" etc etc!

All in all, glad in the circumstances to get home in the bunch and in one piece.

Harrybelafonte

But... A4 riders who come on here are told to do as little work as possible? Stay up near the front, never at the front? A3 seems to be the same advice, now people are giving out because they do that? I've been in races where a particular club tries to control a race.. SERC GP last year for example... SERC were blantantly trying to get one of their guys the win. They started blocking lads off and slowing down the peleton while their team mates domintated... as the only rider for my "team" in that race, it got super annoying that they could do it by numbers... thems the breaks I know... but it's just a pain in the arse. I got pretty pissed off in that race and managed my only point because of anger adrenaline, but there's enough putting me off racing without that lark.

keoclassic

Lucan did that in the waller last year, i remember going to the front and telling one of them (with a smile on my face) that they could not keep it up forever and then attacking just for the craic...............when the same lad caught me his reply was "Neither can you" Touche!! He eventually started to work with me when he saw i wasn,t giving up and we got a good chase group going and caught the break, so you never know what can happen when you try!

wirelessdude01

keoclassic wrote: »

Lucan did that in the waller last year, i remember going to the front and telling one of them (with a smile on my face) that they could not keep it up forever and then attacking just for the craic...............when the same lad caught me his reply was "Neither can you" Touche!! He eventually started to work with me when he saw i wasn,t giving up and we got a good chase group going and caught the break, so you never know what can happen when you try!

Well Lucan did get the win in the A4 last year

JK.BMC

hammerheadjack wrote: »

I kinda agree that there should be no designated leaders etc at that level, and A3/A4 racing has been like that all along, but still baffeled with all the exposure to cycling that people have these days how riders are content to sit in the bunch with everyone expecting everyone else to do the work. At yesterdays race it was very noticable. A flat course, 90K and good sized bunch should have been able to organise themselves. The break formed early with all the prizes taken, and apart from a few riders everyone was happy to ride around together. I was just wondering why bother to run the risk of crashes and sit at the back, why not spend time on the front and blow your lights. At least you would have had a good days training.

There can be a tendency in A3/4 that if a break goes, a kind of 'you chase- ah no, you go- ah go on, after you' atmosphere unless a team/club make a concerted effort. It does mean that some riders simply have to sacrifice themselves for the sake of getting a good day of racing with no prize at the end. I have been that soldier a few times and since I don't have a big club/team, then I might as well chase. Unless I have a team mate up ahead, I don't care who is in the break, I may as well ride. And plenty A3s will do the same once an experienced head starts roaring and organising things.

Dillonryan99

I was in the A3 bunch yesterday after the first lap it was very relaxed and no one willing to chase but the crash towards the end happened at the front of the bunch and was a bit strange, does anyone have the video of the finish of the main A3 group yesterday?

hammerheadjack

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

But... A4 riders who come on here are told to do as little work as possible? Stay up near the front, never at the front? A3 seems to be the same advice, now people are giving out because they do that? I've been in races where a particular club tries to control a race.. SERC GP last year for example... SERC were blantantly trying to get one of their guys the win. They started blocking lads off and slowing down the peleton while their team mates domintated... as the only rider for my "team" in that race, it got super annoying that they could do it by numbers... thems the breaks I know... but it's just a pain in the arse. I got pretty pissed off in that race and managed my only point because of anger adrenaline, but there's enough putting me off racing without that lark.

Thats one way of looking at it and not burning matches or whatever other metaphore you care to use. But there is also the fact that yesterday the race was over with the prizes all up the road and even though the break had 2 min with three laps to go it was still salvageable on that flat course if someone had the wherewithal to marshal the troops. There was nothing to loose by contributing to a bit of momentum for a chase. When its lined out everyone is working hard, and all would have had a decent workout at the very least.
Not giving out just curious to hear from those in the race what they thought.

keoclassic

Your right, but sometimes those lads are tired, be it from work, family or whatever and are just as happy to sit in, did you try to rally the troops at any stage yourself? It does not always need to be an experienced rider who directs things, just someone with a bit of fire in their belly at that time!

( Not saying that your not an experienced rider by the way:) )

wirelessdude01

In A3 a lot of the time from what I hear within the club and also on here that unless Lucan do the chasing then there generally is damn all of a chase within the races in Leinster. Problem is this year that Lucan nearly always have one or two in the break and then obviously they aren't going to chase. Last week in Bellewstown Lucan had nobody in the break and thus launched the chase that brought the break back. Worked as Lucan got 3rd in the gallop at the end.

Harrybelafonte

hammerheadjack wrote: »

Thats one way of looking at it and not burning matches or whatever other metaphore you care to use. But there is also the fact that yesterday the race was over with the prizes all up the road and even though the break had 2 min with three laps to go it was still salvageable on that flat course if someone had the wherewithal to marshal the troops. There was nothing to loose by contributing to a bit of momentum for a chase. When its lined out everyone is working hard, and all would have had a decent workout at the very least.
Not giving out just curious to hear from those in the race what they thought.

Ah, I know... I'd agree, but sometimes it's a catch-22

colm_gti

Held off on saying anything too much until someone else kicked off...

I haven't ridden that many road races since I moved away from Ireland in 2013, apart from Bellewstown last weekend and Waller cup this weekend just gone, but it was highly negative.

I followed wheels early on, thought I was being smart trying to land myself in a move with a lucan rider, and in doing so missed the one that stuck, don't blame anyone else for that, but I jumped with 4 others to try and catch back on, we made headway, got within about 4 or 5 bike lengths of the back of the break and lads just started sitting on. There were 2 or 3 of us actually working, a Barrow rider and an Orwell junior. What's the point like, either contribute or f*ck off, so I gave up contributing and let it go back to the bunch. I'd rather miss the break than give a couple of sandbaggers a free ride across.

I tried a few more times, I was with one of the NRPT lads that spent the guts of a lap trying to get across to the move, but low and behold we were closed down by pointless chases again.

That comment "Why would the 2 juniors be trying to go across anyways? To bring the peloton over to the break... eejits." Bridging across to a break is a bit different to dragging the peloton last time I checked, but am open to correction...

The time I spent in the bunch frustrated me, lads were aimlessly going to the front and drilling it when a couple of lads tried to get up the road, dragging the bunch with them. I am sure this is what happened any time I was with others trying to create a gap. They're obviously strong, but why not try and get a gap and THEN use their strength, rather than closing down moves? If it's a workout they want, go and do a training spin, don't race negatively! And then when some of them do get into a move/chase with a gap, they just sit on?! Come on lads!

I am under no illusion that I'm a good rider, if I was I'd be out of A3, but it still baffles me how people call dragging the bunch around and closing down moves aimlessly "racing."

Lucan do it right, but they have the numbers and experience to get away with it. When I raced in Bellewstown a team mate got into the move and I busted myself closing down any chase to let their gap go out, but yesterday lads were just closing down chases, though I'm not sure why.

That's just my view from being in the race yesterday....

colm_gti

Also, blaming steak and wine isn't an excuse, I got a taxi outside sam's bar on dawson street at 4am Saturday night / Sunday morning with a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me, and was able to stick my nose into the wind a few times :pac:

keoclassic

colm_gti wrote: »

Also, blaming steak and wine isn't an excuse, I got a taxi outside sam's bar on dawson street at 4am Saturday night / Sunday morning with a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me, and was able to stick my nose into the wind a few times :pac:

Then you are a stronger man than I. Pity you were out......In the words of declan moffet you probably should have won it! : )

colm_gti

keoclassic wrote: »

Then you are a stronger man than I. Pity you were out......In the words of declan moffet you probably should have won it! : )

My only saving grace was that I was probably still a bit drunk at the start line :rolleyes:

keoclassic

Well at least if you came down it probably wouldn't have knocked a stir out of ya..............was that you with the hip flask in your bottle cage ; )

Arthurdaly

Might the reason for all the crashes be that half the peleton is pissed or hungover?

bcmf

colm_gti wrote: »

.....a bottle of red, 4 pints of beer and 2 gin and tonics in me .....

No wonder nobody would work with ya. The stink of booze of ya :pac:

colm_gti

Arthurdaly wrote: »

Might the reason for all the crashes be that half the peletons is posses or hungover?

Nah it seems most of the crashes happened mid bunch, sure all the hangovers are at the back.

hammerheadjack

To get back to my quest for an understanding of what I saw yesterday, rather than an insight into the pre-race preparation tactics of half an irish A3 peleton. :-)...

"The time I spent in the bunch frustrated me, lads were aimlessly going to the front and drilling it when a couple of lads tried to get up the road, dragging the bunch with them."

I think that is what I am trying to get an answer to. Is it that the riders who are strong enough to chase down an attack just dont know how to jump to the attack without dragging the whole peleton with them?

"I am sure this is what happened any time I was with others trying to create a gap."
Yes it sure was. Riders freewheeling up the drags would flood forward everytime an attack got more than 5 seconds. Dragging the whole peleton in their wake as they rolled forward.

Just to come clean I was driving one of the support cars and saw the race from that vantage point. We had a rider in the break. I guess I was surprised because I expected a chase of some sort at some stage. I don't race anymore, but see a lot of races.

My point is that there were plenty of strong riders there, but they seemed to be totally focused on closing down moves, rather than trying to get into them. This gives the impression of negative racing but I' m sure those riders would feel that they were simply trying to get across to riders trying to escape oblivious to the fact that they were wasting their time and energy by dragging everyone with them.