Seen & Found

Odelay · 29-01-2017 11:43pm

It's fair to say the man that made it has no toothache now, as the saying goes.

Hotei · 31-01-2017 2:15pm

Hi

An acquaintance with an interest in history has, what we think, is a brooch that was found by his mother (in the 1970s) when cleaning out the grate from a turf fire. It has what appears to be a common double motif from the 17th C onwards, namely, an Acanthus leaf and Bear's Paw. There may have been an iron pin on the back judging by some rust, but it appears to be a copper alloy in the main. It measures approximately 60mm. in length (not including the attached five link rings) and approx. 30mm. wide.

Any thoughts?

Coles · 31-01-2017 11:54pm

A bit of reading shows that the name of the plant Acanthus is derived from 'brank-ursine', Latin for bear's claw. This might explain the combination for the brooch.

Hotei · 01-02-2017 12:59am

Coles wrote: »

A bit of reading shows that the name of the plant Acanthus is derived from 'brank-ursine', Latin for bear's claw. This might explain the combination for the brooch.

Thanks Coles.
Yeah, that's something I've already discovered in my research so far.
The acanthus and animal paw combination seems to be quite an early motif - it appears in the classical period in Greece and Rome more often as a lion's paw with acanthus leaf. Acanthus apparently symbolises enduring life and immortality. The leaf decoration on this brooch appears to be in the rococo style, which could date it to some time in the 18th century. It would also appear to have been made by way of the repoussé and chasing methods (rather than by casting), which was also a popular way of creating jewellery in the 18th century. I'm suggesting a mid to late 18th century date for the brooch, but am unsure. I'd be more than happy to hear other opinions.
It's really intriguing how it ended up in a sod of turf though!

* By the way, this post is a collaborative effort between myself and another Archaeology forum member who first brought this artefact to my attention, so I can't take all the credit for the research done so far!

Coles · 01-02-2017 10:14am

The chain is an interesting aspect of it in trying to figure out how it might have been used. Obviously 60mm is quite small so it's definitely not robust enough to be from a horse's halter or bit. I wonder could it be a military brooch? Maybe from the Yeomanry or something like that?

Great find.

Hotei · 01-02-2017 10:48am

Coles wrote: »

The chain is an interesting aspect of it in trying to figure out how it might have been used. Obviously 60mm is quite small so it's definitely not robust enough to be from a horse's halter or bit. I wonder could it be a military brooch? Maybe from the Yeomanry or something like that?

Great find.

We were just wondering if the chain was an original part of the piece? It may have been a later addition after the pin on the back broke, perhaps? If it was an original attachment, why solder it to the claw end?
When I first saw the back of it, I immediately assumed it was a brooch, but I could be wrong. The bridle/halter attachment may not be a bad guess either, if it was merely for decoration.
So many possibilities!

cfuserkildare · 01-02-2017 12:33pm

capethingy.jpgIf memory serves me correctly,
Would there not be 2 of these broach type items, 1 at each end of a chain, both with a short pin to hold a cape or overcoat together?

Like the attachment?

baaba maal · 01-02-2017 9:14pm

I,ll declare my interest as the other researcher! I would wonder if bridle pieces would be a bit bigger than this object? That is a lot of detail for something that wold be seen from a distance....
The (double) fastener idea looks interesting too!!

Fries-With-That · 03-02-2017 6:45pm

I've been looking at this and winding out my neck here a little, the two loops type arrangement on the back look typical to me of the way a badge might be mounted on material.

The two loops would be pushed through two holes in the material, and a felt or leather backing washer (usually a large square) would be placed inside the garment/hat/tunic or whatever and a split pin pushed through both loops to hold the item in place.

The idea behind this was the badge could be removed for cleaning (think copper/brass alloys).

Now looking at it 6cm appears to be very large for a hat for a human head, so you have to consider something else, I can't get the idea out of my head that it was used for ornamentation on a circus animals fancy headdress, elephant, horse or on a cloak for a bear.

Its a nice find, my googling can't find anything in a military line where a bear claw/paw was used.

Any hints on where it was found ?

Tiercel Dave · 03-02-2017 7:42pm

Fries-With-That wrote: »

Now looking at it 60cm.......

It's only 60mm long, mentioned in 1st post, so you might still be right........

Fries-With-That · 04-02-2017 9:25am

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

It's only 60mm long, mentioned in 1st post, so you might still be right........

lol, Thanks for that, 60cm would be huge, I meant 6cm.

baaba maal · 06-02-2017 8:57pm

Fries-With-That wrote: »

I've been looking at this and winding out my neck here a little, the two loops type arrangement on the back look typical to me of the way a badge might be mounted on material.

The two loops would be pushed through two holes in the material, and a felt or leather backing washer (usually a large square) would be placed inside the garment/hat/tunic or whatever and a split pin pushed through both loops to hold the item in place.

The idea behind this was the badge could be removed for cleaning (think copper/brass alloys).

Now looking at it 6cm appears to be very large for a hat for a human head, so you have to consider something else, I can't get the idea out of my head that it was used for ornamentation on a circus animals fancy headdress, elephant, horse or on a cloak for a bear.

Its a nice find, my googling can't find anything in a military line where a bear claw/paw was used.

Any hints on where it was found ?

It was found by the mother of the person who owns it- she was cleaning the grate from the fire and there it was in the ashes- the speculation is that it was lost on the bog a number of years ago and brought in inadvertently (I know it was common to start fires with the light-brown turf found at the top of the bog- this would fit in with a relatively late deposition date).
It is a very elaborate piece to end up in the grate of a fire, but that is part of the mystery/enjoyment of it!

Hotei · 30-04-2017 2:05pm

Found in plough soil. 40mm. long.

GY A1 · 30-04-2017 2:32pm

What's that hotei

Hotei · 30-04-2017 2:59pm

GY A1 wrote: »

What's that hotei

A prehistoric (Mesolithic - Neolithic - Bronze age) man or woman would have struck this core using a hammerstone (by direct or indirect percussion) producing flakes which could then be used to create tools such as blades and scrapers. It originally would have been a riverine or beach flint pebble (cortex still visible on this piece).

Aelfric · 01-05-2017 10:30am

I think that's a bit fanciful Hotei. Your flake would be around 2cm long, OK for a Microlith, I agree, but the Flint pebble is pretty poor quality, especially at the distal end. I'm sure there were better pebbles to be had.

Hotei · 01-05-2017 6:15pm

Aelfric wrote: »

I think that's a bit fanciful Hotei. Your flake would be around 2cm long, OK for a Microlith, I agree, but the Flint pebble is pretty poor quality, especially at the distal end. I'm sure there were better pebbles to be had.

I'm confused! You don't think it's a core, or you don't think it has been worked at all? Most of the cores I've found on this site have been less than 30mm. long, and well worked out. These cores have had similar sized flakes removed. The late Peter Woodman examined some of the cores and believed one to be almost certainly Early-Mesolithic in date. Another Mesolithic scholar suggested the flint was of poor quality too.

Mountainsandh · 17-09-2017 12:40am

My daughter picked up a stone today at the beach that I think looks interesting, could be completely natural but I thought I'd post it here for opinions anyway, thanks. I've stuck lots of pics onto my Flickr stream so just click on this one for more (of the same stone) if interested.

[IMG][/img]

hook (1 of 1)-5 by Anne L., on Flickr

edit : the pics are all stickered with "Hook" but they've nothing to do with it, the stone was found on the Cunnigear, Dungarvan, co Waterford.

Wibbs · 17-09-2017 1:17pm

Might be a hammer stone/re finisher? The numerous dimples at one end could be as a result of that. I have a couple of Neandertal examples that look kinda similar though they're not weathered so hard to say. Gun to my head I'd probably think "natural".

That neck of the woods, the sunny south east seems to have some nice quality flint/chert washing up on beaches. Years ago I was on a weekend away down there and found a few nice nodules that when knapped were of nice enough quality and predictable enough in fracture. Now not like the buttery smooth French stuff, but pretty good. Maybe an underwater source? The local geology doesn't really lend itself to decent flint sources.

Mountainsandh · 17-09-2017 2:49pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Might be a hammer stone/re finisher? The numerous dimples at one end could be as a result of that. I have a couple of Neandertal examples that look kinda similar though they're not weathered so hard to say. Gun to my head I'd probably think "natural".

That neck of the woods, the sunny south east seems to have some nice quality flint/chert washing up on beaches. Years ago I was on a weekend away down there and found a few nice nodules that when knapped were of nice enough quality and predictable enough in fracture. Now not like the buttery smooth French stuff, but pretty good. Maybe an underwater source? The local geology doesn't really lend itself to decent flint sources.

There's a good few bits of flint/chert alright, mostly tiny nodules though. I found a really really dark inside flint (?) pebble yesterday, it's black glass sort of but tiny. I think it's the ice sheets retreating that brought along stuff and also scraped some source somewhere on the sea floor, if I recall right (Reading the Irish Landscape, author : some great guy I don't remember the name of).
This stone is very weathered alright, and it looks like something that someone started working and then gave up, to my very uneducated eye, or just spoil, or nothing. But I don't have a clue.

edit : actually, talking about whatever quality it may be, there is an area where the black marks are that is a bit rough, I wonder would that make it worthless after all for someone trying to get something out of it.

JJayoo · 19-01-2018 12:23am

Some bog Oak with what appears to be axe marks.

There is a huge amount of big Oak in this area, and giant mounds of it were but t when land owners father was digging drains with digger.

Could these marks be very old and perhaps done when chopping the tree down?

Just to the left of this chunk is a long narrow length of big Oak

mocmo · 19-01-2018 9:52am

I don't think these are axe marks but rather the trunk is splitting along the natural lines (medullary rays) within the oak, which are straight and so give the impression of being cut marks.

I've seen this before on bog oak which breaks along these lines into what look like planks and/or cut pieces of wood but are in fact totally natural.

Felled and worked tree trunks or stumps are occasionally found along bog margins though.

slowburner · 31-01-2018 11:08am

Does anyone know if the oblique imagery on Bing is going to be available in future for non-urban areas, or is it is a thing of the past?

slowburner · 31-01-2018 11:11am

Great resource for the aerial enthusiast...https://www.cambridgeairphotos.com/
AKA the CUCAP collection.

slowburner · 29-04-2018 10:06am

The Geological Survey of Ireland made (some) LIDAR data sets available on the 24th of April. Over 200 'new' sites have already been identified by one enthusiast in one county. Hopefully more data sets will be added in future.
The mapviewer is available here

12 element · 29-04-2018 8:52pm

slowburner wrote: »

The Geological Survey of Ireland made (some) LIDAR data sets available on the 24th of April. Over 200 'new' sites have already been identified by one enthusiast in one county. Hopefully more data sets will be added in future.
The mapviewer is available here

Does this look like a new find:

(circle in the middle!)

bogwalrus · 29-04-2018 10:53pm

12 element wrote: »

Does this look like a new find:

(circle in the middle!)

Only circle I see is the "O" in the "Osi" watermark on the map.

jmcc · 01-05-2018 2:55am

12 element wrote: »

Does this look like a new find:

(circle in the middle!)

Not in any way an expert on this but it looks unusual. The other circles seem to be natural features or pits or quarries.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 02-05-2018 3:05pm

slowburner wrote: »

Looks very much like a barrow. Worth notifying the NMS.

Yep. There also seems to be an older field/boundary system (or tracks) in the lidar image. Some of the more recent fields follow the older lines the field/region with what could be a barrow also has a few linear ridges/tracks. Most of the other fields don't have that same concentration. It could just be an older field system but there's a depression/pit. If that was dug or quarried historically, then there might have been evidence of it being worked.

There's also a feint trace of the possible barrow in the visual spectrum/colour image.

Regards...jmcc

slowburner · 05-05-2018 7:10pm

12 element wrote: »

Does this look like a new find:

(circle in the middle!)

Yes it does. It looks like a ring barrow and should be notified to the NMS.

Wildlife Actor · 26-05-2018 1:20pm

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/permission-granted-for-office-development-at-screen-cinema-site-1.3335731%3fmode=amp

I think the planning is appealed to an bord pleanala but if its granted they will be digging up where it's reputed the long stone may be buried. Locals of this parish will probably be more familiar with the long stone than me but as far as I know it disappeared around the time the land in that area was made up for the quays in the 17th century.

Are the archaeological surveys done on behalf of developers done with as much rigour as "normal" ones?

slowburner · 27-05-2018 3:26pm

Love nor Money wrote: »

Are the archaeological surveys done on behalf of developers done with as much rigour as "normal" ones?

By 'normal', I assume you mean research excavation.
Research excavations differ from professional excavations in a number of ways. For example; research excavations usually have a major teaching element, or community involvement. This usually means that a number of the diggers have no experience in excavation. Things generally move along at a much slower pace because people need to be taught how to do the work.
The fact that professional archaeologists are excavating and recording every working day means that they are also capable of meeting the strenuous physical and intellectual demands, and they are capable of excavating at a pace that far exceeds the abilities of non-professionals.
Your concerns are understandable, but the short answer is yes - the excavation will be carried out with every bit as much rigour.

forgottenhills · 29-05-2018 12:00pm

I often trek around Coillte woods in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains and keep my eyes open for anything unusual.

Last month I was walking on a hillside looking down a slope to a river in a scenic area where there are various walking paths. At the top of the slope the rough overgrown field leading down to the river meets up with a wood and levels off. There are a lot of stones under the trees at the edge of this wood where it meets the field. There was one stone sticking up out of the ground at an angle that caught my eye. It is obviously an old carved stone with a round hole made all the way through it near the top of the stone.

Now my first thought was that this is an old carved gate post as I have seen a few of these here and there up the Wicklow hills. But usually they occur in pairs and on this occasion I could only see one. Also their edges are usually sharper which might suggest that either the stone I came across is older and its edges have been rounded by age or was carved from a softer stone than other posts.

Within 20 yards of this stone, almost completely hidden by the wood are old stone walls that are very roughly built and don’t look like the ruins of an old cottage or church (unless a very makeshift construction without windows), more like rough walls built to hold sheep or for some similar use. I don't see any archaeology marked on the maps in this exact area although there is something marked less than half a mile away.

I have attached a link to 2 pics of this leaning stone. You can see the field boundary near to the stone with a bit of old netting wire under the stone. What do people think? Is this simply an old gate post? I don't have any great knowledge of archaeology but I have a vague memory of reading sometime that some standing stones have been recorded that had a hole through them like the one that I came across.

aqxiVaD

https://imgur.com/a/aqxiVaD

slowburner · 29-05-2018 1:13pm

forgottenhills wrote: »

I often trek around Coillte woods in the Dublin/Wicklow mountains and keep my eyes open for anything unusual.

Last month I was walking on a hillside looking down a slope to a river in a scenic area where there are various walking paths. At the top of the slope the rough overgrown field leading down to the river meets up with a wood and levels off. There are a lot of stones under the trees at the edge of this wood where it meets the field. There was one stone sticking up out of the ground at an angle that caught my eye. It is obviously an old carved stone with a round hole made all the way through it near the top of the stone.

Now my first thought was that this is an old carved gate post as I have seen a few of these here and there up the Wicklow hills. But usually they occur in pairs and on this occasion I could only see one. Also their edges are usually sharper which might suggest that either the stone I came across is older and its edges have been rounded by age or was carved from a softer stone than other posts.

Within 20 yards of this stone, almost completely hidden by the wood are old stone walls that are very roughly built and don’t look like the ruins of an old cottage or church (unless a very makeshift construction without windows), more like rough walls built to hold sheep or for some similar use. I don't see any archaeology marked on the maps in this exact area although there is something marked less than half a mile away.

I have attached a link to 2 pics of this leaning stone. You can see the field boundary near to the stone with a bit of old netting wire under the stone. What do people think? Is this simply an old gate post? I don't have any great knowledge of archaeology but I have a vague memory of reading sometime that some standing stones have been recorded that had a hole through them like the one that I came across.

https://imgur.com/a/aqxiVaD

It’s quite definitely a gate post. They don’t necessarily have to occur in pairs. Often, one or both are re-used.

forgottenhills · 29-05-2018 1:44pm

slowburner wrote: »

It’s quite definitely a gate post. They don’t necessarily have to occur in pairs. Often, one or both are re-used.

It probably is just an old post but the curiosity I had about it was fueled by the following:

the stone is in a highly scenic/strategic hillside area overlooking a river approx 100 metres below
it seems to be located on a mound of stones
it doesn't look to be in a natural place to be an opening to a field or a laneway unless these boundaries were very long ago and have long disappeared. Also it seems a little shorter than I would expect for a gate post.
there is the curious cluster of roughly built stone walls close by in the shape of old shed or house walls, semi-collapsed but with no evidence of windows and or roofs. It was these that first drew my attention as I was walking on an ascending path in the woods close by and could see them half -hidden below me in the trees at the edge of the wood.

slowburner · 29-05-2018 7:25pm

forgottenhills wrote: »

It probably is just an old post but the curiosity I had about it was fueled by the following:
the stone is in a highly scenic/strategic hillside area overlooking a river approx 100 metres below

it seems to be located on a mound of stones

it doesn't look to be in a natural place to be an opening to a field or a laneway unless these boundaries were very long ago and have long disappeared. Also it seems a little shorter than I would expect for a gate post.

there is the curious cluster of roughly built stone walls close by in the shape of old shed or house walls, semi-collapsed but with no evidence of windows and or roofs. It was these that first drew my attention as I was walking on an ascending path in the woods close by and could see them half -hidden below me in the trees at the edge of the wood.

If you look closely, you will notice a scalloped effect on the arris of the post. This is known colloquially as ‘stone stitching’. This effect is the remaining evidence for how the stone was initially shaped. This kind of stone-cleaving is typically associated with post-Medieval activity.
I can assure you that this is a gate post. It received the bolt. Much of it may be below ground now but if not, its size does not matter: gates can be a variety of dimensions.
The post does however, hint that the surrounding stones were once part of a structure. Possibly a sheep fold.
It would be worthwhile to check the historic mapping on the OSI website for C.19th buildings.

bogwalrus · 29-05-2018 9:36pm

This symbol is carved into a stone that is part of a very old stone building in the countryside of macroom. Across the road there is a dolmen in a field. Any ideas as to what the symbol is for and how old it might be? I'll try get a better pic when I am up there again.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1okUKVSnQ7BPhdlVnoz2lavWWtW_C0nSW/view?usp=drivesdk

slowburner · 29-05-2018 9:52pm

bogwalrus wrote: »

This symbol is carved into a stone that is part of a very old stone building in the countryside of macroom. Across the road there is a dolmen in a field. Any ideas as to what the symbol is for and how old it might be? I'll try get a better pic when I am up there again.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1okUKVSnQ7BPhdlVnoz2lavWWtW_C0nSW/view?usp=drivesdk

It’s an Ordnance Survey benchmark.
The survey started around 1837. If you check the historic maps, you will see it depicted at the precise location.
If it’s on the historic 6”, then it’s from the first survey (circa 1838 - 1843). If it’s on the historic 25”, then it’s circa 1860 - 1911.

slowburner · 29-05-2018 9:58pm

OS benchmarks were precise points recording height over datum (above the ordinary low water mark at sea level).
They are still useful today.
The accuracy of the two surveys is still remarkable and reliable. Most of the measurements were taken by two sappers laying out chains. Not much room for error there!

bogwalrus · 29-05-2018 10:27pm

slowburner wrote: »

OS benchmarks were precise points recording height over datum (above the ordinary low water mark at sea level).
They are still useful today.
The accuracy of the two surveys is still remarkable and reliable. Most of the measurements were taken by two sappers laying out chains. Not much room for error there!

Awesome. That's all very interesting. It was my neighbour who told me about it and has no clue what it is. He will love this piece of info as I'd say it has bothered him for years.

slowburner · 25-08-2018 9:29am

An archaeologist (Ivor Kenny) working for Archaeology & Built Heritage in Dublin recovered an intact Medieval jug earlier this month.
The jug is classed as Dublin Ware, and it dates from the late 13th to early 14th centuries. The find site was close to Dublin Castle, I understand.
The discovery is remarkable because the jug remained intact for upwards of seven hundred years at the base of a refuse pit in one of the most active, and densely populated parts of the city.
To put it in perspective; the jug was probably contemporary with the establishment of Ireland's first parliament (1297) and the Black Death (1314).

Coles · 02-11-2018 12:09am

Some possibly Mesolithic tools found in Co. Wicklow.

86a87869-ce01-4a32-9455-a7de8582cad1-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

slowburner · 02-11-2018 9:46am

The lower two have some of the diagnostic elements of struck lithics but I would not be convinced. The upper two are more doubtful.
What is the lithology and what are the dimensions?

Thargor · 02-11-2018 10:16am

Coles wrote: »

Some possibly Mesolithic tools found in Co. Wicklow.

[IMG][/img]

You found them? Just lying on the ground or at some site?

Coles · 02-11-2018 11:33am

slowburner wrote: »

The lower two have some of the diagnostic elements of struck lithics but I would not be convinced. The upper two are more doubtful.
What is the lithology and what are the dimensions?

Thanks for the reply.

Here's some more detail of the two blades. Both have nice bulbs of percussion, reworkings etc. The pointed one is 88mm x 42mm, the parallel edged blade is 70mm x 32mm.

6fbe49b1-5ef3-41b6-8c59-725262eda1a2-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

6fbe49b1-5ef3-41b6-8c59-725262eda1a2-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

96407893-fff4-47a6-b85c-7b689ca60c39-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

bd9753ad-e554-4419-ad84-891ff1e85f22-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

b0c938f2-1bdc-428c-a449-97213ccc8b9e-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

A nearby location has also turned up some nice neolithic convex scrapers, sharpening stones etc.

70401d51-6c93-4fcc-a388-eea1840726ad-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

70401d51-6c93-4fcc-a388-eea1840726ad-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

cbec96fe-cc46-4d9c-8aa2-045e9f206166-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

I won't be revealing the location on a public forum.

slowburner · 02-11-2018 12:00pm

You are quite right to keep the location private but I am very familiar with it.

Coles · 02-11-2018 12:30pm

@slowburner. Yes, I suspected you might. My collection is available whenever a study is done of the area.

Aelfric · 02-11-2018 4:30pm

At least three of these lithics are diagnostically late Mesolithic, so you should report the finds, and their location, to the Duty Officer at the National Museum of Ireland if you haven't done so already.

Thargor · 02-11-2018 6:21pm

Wasn't asking for a location but whats the nature of the site? Is it well known? Cave or bog or something?

slowburner · 03-11-2018 2:13am

Aelfric wrote: »

At least three of these lithics are diagnostically late Mesolithic, so you should report the finds, and their location, to the Duty Officer at the National Museum of Ireland if you haven't done so already.

What late Mesolithic diagnostic features do you see?
I’m seeing maybe silicified limestone but definitely not chert.

Seen & Found

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