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Do you "have" to further yourself in work?

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    #62
    InReality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭InReality


    I think there is a place for being blunt/straightforward and not afraid to say things to managers/owners etc.
    If     there is a general perception in a place that there is no point applying for jobs because the boss will only give them to favorites anyway then maybe he/she needs to hear that.


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    #63
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    InReality wrote: »
    I think there is a place for being blunt/straightforward and not afraid to say things to managers/owners etc.
    If     there is a general perception in a place that there is no point applying for jobs because the boss will only give them to favorites anyway then maybe he/she needs to hear that.

    Sometimes the truth hurts but needs to be heard none the less, but would you bet your career at the company on it? The time for OP to say that would be as he/she was about to leave for a new job, then OP could tell the boss that he/she was leaving because of the unfairness in promotion process. You don't say it if you plan to stay though.

    OP was misguided saying what was said, what's even more worrying for future career prospects is that the penny still hasn't dropped. Promotion/progressing is not about just being good at your job, the reality is that some "politics" are also often involved, who you know, how well you get on with somebody, being noticed etc but what OP did was shoot him/herself in the foot on all counts. Maybe in a new company OP can start with a clean slate and remember "to go along, you first have to get along"


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    #64
    SameDiff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 145 ✭✭SameDiff


    seamus wrote: »
    People who refuse to play the game because it's "ball licking" are pessimists, not realists - they believe that playing the game is either pointless or ethically untenable, neither of which are realistic points of view.

    They might just have some integrity.


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    #65
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    SameDiff wrote: »
    They might just have some integrity.

    Which is an important attribute, but for promotion, ambition and good judgement trump it.


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    #66
    yankinlk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    I'm good at what I do therefore I have no reason to be managed out and frankly I don't know what that even means, you either fire someone or not.

    Its not always that black and white. During the recession/downturn years, you always have the threat of redundancy hanging over you. What does a manager do when everyone is good at their job (managers opinion, not your personal one) and yet they have to recommend someone for the chop to higher up Mgmt?

    Every manager would be expected to have ranked every employee from first to last, in case there is a need to give someone the tap... it might surprise you to find yourself in and around the last place finishers on your team, hopefully you wont find out - at least for the next few years as we drag out of recession.


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    #67
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SameDiff wrote: »
    They might just have some integrity.
    Playing the game doesn't require acting without integrity or compromising your own principles.
    Anyone who thinks that playing the game requires being unethical clearly doesn't know how to play the game well.


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    #68
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »
    I dont understand why people come on boards looking for advice when they think they know it all already.

    I can think of a reason. :D

    Can't take this seriously at all


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    #69
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,722 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    OP, something that no one has brought up is technological change.

    Sure, you're good at what you do - today. But how long will that job be around for? Will it be replaced by something else, or transformed totally at some point?

    Now you might say no - but at points in history gas-lamp-lighters, typesetters, typists, switchboard operators, etc might have said the same.

    IMHO this, ensuring your continued employability, is the real reason why you always need to be always learning something new, except perhaps in the last 5 or so years before you're due to retire.


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    #70
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    Thanks for the replies people. I guess the main reason I told my boss what I did was because I dont have any intention of going for any of these promotions, I see how much a$$ licking and politics goes on and how in most cases, these people who love to lick up end up getting the jobs. I could have been much blunter and said to him no way only the backstabbers and ladder climbers get those positions but I didnt and if i had my time over, I still would have said what I said.

    My main query was would a complete lack of ambition be held against you, and i find the replies mixed and interesting. There are a few others like my in the office who just want to do the minimum and get out of there, nothing wring with that In my view. There is nothing in my yearly evaluation about wanting to progress, and our training budget is low so if i dont get extra training thats ok with me.


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    #71
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Have to say I find people who just do the minimum are more annoying than the ass lickers and politics players. Same with the constant moaners too.


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    #72
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Have to say I find people who just do the minimum are more annoying than the ass lickers and politics players. Same with the constant moaners too.

    Agreed. I like to surround myself with ambitious people who will challenge me and challenge each other.

    No company or group of individuals can succeed if its staff have the OP's attitude. I've said if before - If I was the OP's boss, I'd manage him out for two reasons - His lack of ambition and his poor judgement (when implying that I am essentially corrupt or incompetent).


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    #73
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,035 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    My main query was would a complete lack of ambition be held against you, and i find the replies mixed and interesting. There are a few others like my in the office who just want to do the minimum and get out of there, nothing wring with that In my view. There is nothing in my yearly evaluation about wanting to progress, and our training budget is low so if i dont get extra training thats ok with me.

    With that attitude, I expect you'll be tolerated for as long as they need you, but once they have an alternative, they'll find away to kick you to the kerb. You may be good at what you do, but probably not worth the negativity that comes along with it.


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    #74
    Stavro Mueller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    Wanderer2010 I see you have had previous issues in workplaces. I'm wondering do you have the unerring ability to find jobs in places which tick you off?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83795809&postcount=4

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90143974&postcount=1
    Is this the same manager you had this exchange with?


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    #75
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    No company or group of individuals can succeed if its staff have the OP's attitude. I've said if before - If I was the OP's boss, I'd manage him out for two reasons - His lack of ambition and his poor judgement (when implying that I am essentially corrupt or incompetent).

    Why is lack of ambition so terrible? Not everyone wants to advance and they already do an excellent job in their current role. Those people are the engine of any team.

    Does a manager of a team of 10 realy want 10 people gunning to advance at the next opportunity.


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    #76
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Why is lack of ambition so terrible? Not everyone wants to advance and they already do an excellent job in their current role. Those people are the engine of any team.

    Does a manager of a team of 10 realy want 10 people gunning to advance at the next opportunity.

    Yes, they are motivated to do their job well by the possibility of promotion, management positions and wage increases. A more pertinent question would be, do you really want the one who you wish to promote to tell you that he/she can't be arsed applying?


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    #77
    NapoleonInRags
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭NapoleonInRags


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    Em, not really to be perfectly fair. I had a good look at the job spec for the 2 promotions and, with my experience, I would be well able for it. But office politics usually mean these jobs are created for a desired person rather than most qualified etc. Im not really sure where the bad attitude comes from. It wouldnt be unambitious to not turn down extra hours in my view. Plus my boss when coming to me and saying he was surprised I didnt apply was a bit false, he probably knows who ends up getting the job, these promotions always go like that in the end!


    I work in HR and I'm constantly amazed that people outside of a selection process think they know so much more than the panel!


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    #78
    sillysmiles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭sillysmiles


    seamus wrote: »
    Why would they go to the trouble and waste of holding a beauty contest when they've already picked the winner?

    I know of more than one company that does it.


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    #79
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    sillysmiles wrote: »
    I know of more than one company that does it.
    Companies under the union whip often have a "every job must be advertised" policy, but the vast majority of companies don't recognise any unions and so don't hold interviews for internal positions unless they're not 100% sure who they're giving it to.

    Interviews are a pain in the hole. Nobody in their right mind would hold a full set of interview unless they had to.


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    #80
    Martin567
    Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭Martin567


    davo10 wrote: »
    Yes, they are motivated to do their job well by the possibility of promotion, management positions and wage increases. A more pertinent question would be, do you really want the one who you wish to promote to tell you that he/she can't be arsed applying?

    That seems like a very narrow minded & blinkered view of what motivates people.

    Not everyone is the same. Different people have different personal circumstances. Some people may have a very high earning spouse, others may have a family member requiring long term care. There are many other possibilities. The point being, career advancement may not be a high priority for some people and that should be perfectly valid.

    So long as that person is conscientious about their work and doing all that is required of the position, the fact that they may be content to remain in the same role indefinitely should not represent a problem for anyone. It's a very depressing viewpoint to hold that only the possibility of promotion or management positions would motivate someone to do a job well. While everyone would be happy with a wage increase, some people (quite rationally) would not be prepared to accept the downside of the extra hours or responsibility that may go with the greater pay. There are people whose primary motivation is simply a job well done and who have no great ambitions beyond that.


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    #81
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Martin567 wrote: »
    That seems like a very narrow minded & blinkered view of what motivates people.

    Not everyone is the same. Different people have different personal circumstances. Some people may have a very high earning spouse, others may have a family member requiring long term care. There are many other possibilities. The point being, career advancement may not be a high priority for some people and that should be perfectly valid.

    So long as that person is conscientious about their work and doing all that is required of the position, the fact that they may be content to remain in the same role indefinitely should not represent a problem for anyone. It's a very depressing viewpoint to hold that only the possibility of promotion or management positions would motivate someone to do a job well. While everyone would be happy with a wage increase, some people (quite rationally) would not be prepared to accept the downside of the extra hours or responsibility that may go with the greater pay. There are people whose primary motivation is simply a job well done and who have no great ambitions beyond that.

    A fair point Martin, and if you don't want to advance, then just say that. But do you think it wise to say what the OP said?, that is the situation we are discussing.

    Incidentally, if you asked most employers who they would prefer to employ, an ambitious go-getter whose desire to succeed drives them on, or someone who is just happy to do the job they are required to do and no more, I suspect most would take the more highly motivated employee, particularly if the work is forward looking, technology or sales based.


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    #82
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    davo10 wrote: »
    Yes, they are motivated to do their job well by the possibility of promotion, management positions and wage increases. A more pertinent question would be, do you really want the one who you wish to promote to tell you that he/she can't be arsed applying?

    Management positions aren't for everyone. Especially when it means you do less of the work that you actually enjoy, and have deal with all the crap that people management involves.

    As I said before in this thread, having an employee who's happy doing their work and not going for promotion all the time isn't always a bad thing at all.

    But really, the thread was never about that, once the OP mentioned his reply to the manager (and still can't see what's wrong with it).
    seamus wrote:
    so don't hold interviews for internal positions unless they're not 100% sure who they're giving it to.

    I'm not sure that's actually all that rare - or at least the company may be 99% sure that they're going to give it to person X, but don't want other staff thinking that they had no chance to go for it. Even in non-union companies, this can happen.


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    #83
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Eoin wrote: »
    Management positions aren't for everyone. Especially when it means you do less of the work that you actually enjoy, and have deal with all the crap that people management involves.

    As I said before in this thread, having an employee who's happy doing their work and not going for promotion all the time isn't always a bad thing at all.

    But really, the thread was never about that, once the OP mentioned his reply to the manager (and still can't see what's wrong with it).


    n.

    Agreed, lack of ambition is not a failing, but telling your boss you think he is part of a corrupt process and then expecting any further career advancement, is.

    But sure look, it's a non issue if the OP just wants to stay where he/she is, doing the same job indefinitely. It only becomes an issue if OP ever harboured any ambition to advance in that company.


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    #84
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    davo10 wrote: »
    Agreed, lack of ambition is not a failing, but telling your boss you think he is part of a corrupt process and then expecting any further career advancement, is.

    But sure look, it's a non issue if the OP just wants to stay where he/she is, doing the same job indefinitely. It only becomes an issue if OP ever harboured any ambition to advance in that company.

    Thankfully I have no desire for career advancement! The main purpose of the thread was to get some feelers about was a lack of ambition generally held against you in a company. I guess it depends on the company- some people believe its a bad thing, others not so bad. Fair enough. I do think its strange though that its a point worth being "managed out" over. I do what I have to do, never anything over that, and thats the way it is. The boss hasnt mentioned the job since and wont mention another one I suspect.


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    #85
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    Thankfully I have no desire for career advancement! The main purpose of the thread was to get some feelers about was a lack of ambition generally held against you in a company. I guess it depends on the company- some people believe its a bad thing, others not so bad. Fair enough. I do think its strange though that its a point worth being "managed out" over. I do what I have to do, never anything over that, and thats the way it is. The boss hasnt mentioned the job since and wont mention another one I suspect.

    I think we find it strange that you purposely pidgeon-holed yourself as someone who will never be interested on advancement. You might feel that way now but in the years to come your attitude to advancement may change. You intentionally sabotaged any hope of future promotion because you are pissed off with work now, that is strange.

    Lack of ambition won't be held against you, telling your boss about it will be though. Do you see a time in the future when you will wonder why your career is stagnant, your wages the same, your job monotonous and your juniors now your boss?


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    #86
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,719 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    To be fair to the OP, I've worked in companies where it obvious where the next promotion would be going based on who was kissing whose ass.

    I've also seen the whole dance of going through an interview process done so it looks fair and open when the winner has already been chosen.

    These were big companies too.

    But you'd want to be mad to call them on it in the way the OP did. Depending on how serious his manager took it, he's potentially set himself up to be managed out, but he certainly won't be offered advancement again - so in that sense, "mission accomplished" I guess for the OP

    It would be very unusual for someone to not want to move up - if not for the extra money or responsibility, then at least for the change of pace and doing something new and different - but I've seen it happen though. In one of the companies I mentioned above, there was a girl who was still doing the same basic job 7 years later whereas all her friends and colleagues had long since moved up and elsewhere in the business.

    Onwards and upwards for me though :)


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    #87
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I suppose a lot depends on the nature/industry of your employer. Some employers would be more suited to having "worker bee" type jobs and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Personally though, even if you don't want to progress upwards, as a manager I'd still want to see some sparks of initiative, whether it's leading the Sports & Social, charity, improving a process etc. Something that shows you're not just going through the motions.


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    #88
    sillysmiles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭sillysmiles


    I suppose though it really comes down to whether you live to work or work to live. I think there is too much focus placed on the "loyalty" to the corporation. When in reality if you died in the morning the company you work for would just hire someone else.

    I don't think it is good for anyones mental health to hate their job or the work you do (it is a significant chunk of your day) but I do think it is perfectly ok to go to work, do your job and leave and forget about it and do what interests you in the evening/weekend and not give a toss about work until you set foot in the door again the next morning.


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    #89
    Tiger Mcilroy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭Tiger Mcilroy


    Wanderer2010 wrote: »
    Thankfully I have no desire for career advancement! The main purpose of the thread was to get some feelers about was a lack of ambition generally held against you in a company. I guess it depends on the company- some people believe its a bad thing, others not so bad. Fair enough. I do think its strange though that its a point worth being "managed out" over. I do what I have to do, never anything over that, and thats the way it is. The boss hasnt mentioned the job since and wont mention another one I suspect.

    In fairness OP you asked a question in the thread title but then went on to describe a scenario where you openly criticized your boss and the promotion system within your company, these are two very different things.

    Its one thing to have a lack of ambition and be happy in our position/role and communicate that to management while its a completely different thing to sabotage your future promotions/advancement like you may have.

    A few posters have tried to get you to see that you boss most likely does not appreciate the way you called out the process and this could have a negative impact further down the line. Just because he hasnt brought it up dont think for a second it hasnt been registered.

    Hopefully it wont of course but its naive to think his silence on the subject is the end of it.


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