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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Target Pistols return to Ireland

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24

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    #32
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    I reckon the large amount of interest is a good thing, as long as the gob****es are kept at bay.

    I understand in 1972 there were around 300 licenced pistol shooters, small number like that make for an easy target. Organisations like the NARC have a lot of political lobby power because of their membership numbers.


    By the way, do you know if the people who had their firearms illegally retained in 1972 have sought or received damages?


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    #33
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    They've never received damages civ, because the firearms technically still belong to them and so the state technically never took away their property. I'm sure someone will at some point sue on the grounds of being denied the use of their property, but I wouldn't be holding my breath on them winning - and I'm not sure it'd be in the best interests of target shooters today to be honest.

    And the 300 licenced shooters figure seems desperately small. Hell, the Irish Pony Club would have more air pistols than than in a week if they got the green light.


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    #34
    fiacha
    Registered Users Posts: 779 ✭✭✭fiacha


    civdef wrote:
    By the way, do you know if the people who had their firearms illegally retained in 1972 have sought or received damages?

    I think the chap who writes about rifle shooting in Irish Shoters Digest (Cal Ward??) was trying to get reunited with his air pistol. stopped buying the mag, so I don't the outcome.


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    #35
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Cal Ward and air pistol? That would surprise me greatly fiacha, he seems to be all about praising those who shoot at rabbits from 700 yards away. Something as sane as air pistol probably wouldn't interest him.

    But then, there's little love lost between me and Ward so I may be wrong - I just don't have the motivation to go check. Somehow I doubt that he'd have done much good though.


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    #36
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Incidentally, I was speaking to the Department today. We'd had a question submitted to the NTSA asking if you could buy a pistol in N.Ireland, have it put on your FAC there, get a licence for it from the Gardai and then cross the border with it without needing an importation order.

    The offical word is that you can't - this would be illegal and they'd prosecute.
    So in case anyone out there was thinking they could, you now know better!


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    #37
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Whats the story then with the EU firearms passport??
    It is supposed to do away with all this import/export liscenses.
    From what I understand if I have the gun added to my firearms passport and am liscensed in my home country.I can collect in person from the dealer in Europe,or they will ship it to me with a certified copy of the passport.

    I have tried to get clarity on this;required are 2 passport pics,the gun serial nos,and most odd when you are going and returning.?The whole idea would be that you can head off to the continent when you fancy.Takes about a month to issue. Yet the gardai still claim you need the DOJ import/export cert.?
    Doubling up on paperwork?DOJ /gardai out of sync not knowing what the EU directive is,or just an Irish govt solution to pesky shooters?


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    #38
    entropy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 54 ✭✭entropy


    this firearms euro pass thing is a load of rubbish, the brits wont recognise it, last time i was there for dtl shoot they wouldnt accept it and looked for a visitors permit, funny enough i had a northern ireland licence and argued with them that should be enough for them. when they started to act the mick over it i told them thet the irish governtment would love to know that the british governtment wouldnt accept a northern ireland licence as they were claiming it was an irish licence. that shut him up fairly quick and they kicked us through fairly quick. dont know about importing guns but this thing looks like another piece of euro trash.


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    #39
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    The Europass doesn't get accepted in the UK, as entropy says. It was supposed to be an EU-wide firearms visitors permit sort of thing, but it would appear that it was never fully implemented. Still have one myself, but I've never had the chance to actually use it in anger (so to speak).


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    #40
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Entrophy,
    It sounds like you just ran into a thick bollix in a uniform who wanted to give you a very hard time.From what I have on this thing it works effectively on the continent.wonder has it possibly got somthing to do with the UK and IRL not signing up to Shengen[sic].Or is it just another hassle the shooters DOJ thing?


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    #41
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Glock, I suspect it's more to do with the UK's euro-sceptical attitude. And I've yet to see proof that the DoJ is actually maliciously out to get shooters - all I've ever seen from them suggests a lack of knowlege of firearms and a lack of willingness to have their names on the paper trail leading from a Dunblane/Hungerford/Abbylara incident: and believe me, if you were in their place, with their knowlege, you would act in the same manner, as would I. Namecalling isn't doing any good for anyone, and merely gets people pissed off and defensive - and therefore does a great deal of harm.


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    #42
    Pull!theother1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Pull!theother1


    entropy wrote:
    this firearms euro pass thing is a load of rubbish, the brits wont recognise it, last time i was there for dtl shoot they wouldnt accept it and looked for a visitors permit, funny enough i had a northern ireland licence and argued with them that should be enough for them. when they started to act the mick over it i told them thet the irish governtment would love to know that the british governtment wouldnt accept a northern ireland licence as they were claiming it was an irish licence. that shut him up fairly quick and they kicked us through fairly quick. dont know about importing guns but this thing looks like another piece of euro trash.

    I may be wrong but the Euro Pass was to do away with a removal order as prior to that even though you were in posession of a UK permit you still needed a removal order from the Gardai to take the gun out of the country.
    The Euro pass permits cross border travel but only when the destination countries requirement for certification has been met. Total value? Zero.

    The N.I. certificate is the only one to have as it is by law recognised by the constabulary in England, Scotland and Wales (even if a reminder is sometimes necessary). An English, Scottish or Welsh permit is not however acceptable in N.I. and a visitors permit is needed.


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    #43
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    Funny thing that EU passport it is accepted anywhere in the EU as your right to posses,use,import,export and purchase once it is on the passport the described guns therein.Apart from the British isles[Yes,we know ireland is seperate etc,etc].The contient has and had much stricter import/export laws than ireland ever had.Yet it is now as easy as anything to move your firearms around europe.Apart from here that is.I think it comes down to the"selective EU " mentality our govts display on matters they find awkward,annoying or dont or want to comprehend.


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    #44
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Setting the scene.

    The Government now and in the past have no interest in shooting sports, look at the amount of money collected each year in licence fees and consider how much is re invested in facilities for shooters. None.
    Firearms Acts only affect legitimate shooters, criminal have no regard for the law ergo they are not bothered by how severe the laws are as they do not comply anyway.
    To the best of my knowledge, no other sport contributes so much financially to the Government for zero return.
    Shooters are probably the only group in Ireland who do NOT have a right to their sport.
    Ramblers seem to have a right to go where they like while contributing nothing (other than litter) to the country but want further access to private lands which would have the knock on effect of reducing land available for shooting. Yes, that would also include land available for ranges as we could not be allowed disturb the peace of the countryside with noisy gunfire!
    If shooting is a minority sport, how come there are approx. 230,000 licensed firearms in this country? I doubt if there are 230,000 canoeists or track athletes in this country yet they receive TV coverage and Government funding, without contributing a licence fee.
    The Gardai do not approach the companies who run competitions for cars to ask them not to publish the names or addresses of people who win flash cars in competition in case they might be stolen. The NARGC has been approached to ask clubs not to publish the names and addresses of club competition winners in local media as it could identify the houses which have guns, thereby increasing the risk of the house being burgled. Funny, I thought the Gardai were supposed to protect us from crime not the NARGC.
    On the face of it this seems sensible, nobody wants their house burgled .However, it further reduces clubs ability to promote their sport at local level. Imagine asking the GAA not to publish pictures or names and addresses of victorious teams. Again rather than the Gardai protecting us, they want us to keep our heads down and pretend we don’t exist. All clubs should be causing uproar over this.
    The NRPAI and affiliated bodies (including NTSA,NSA,NASRC etc) should learn from the NARGC, a much younger organisation than the NRPAI but with a lot more credibility. Why? Because they organised on a REGIONAL/COUNTY basis, included all shooting disciplines (though mainly shotgunners, not exclusively so). They do NOT discriminate between different disciplines. Pity the NRPAI didn’t recognise that there were a lot of shooters outside Dublin and Wicklow/Wexford and beyond the walls of the Universities. Perhaps things are changing, there is now Wilkinstown and Fermoy and MRC. Isn’t it strange that with only 10% of shooters being members of the NARGC they can have a Compensation Fund, permanent offices a full time CEO and a relatively happy and peaceful ship? Why don’t the NRPAI chase the other 90% and see what they can achieve? At least they should look at setting up County bodies to help promote the sport. I know quite a lot of people who do not realise that the NRPAI exist. Wonderful job of PR, keep it up and we won’t need the Government to prevent us from having our sport, we can obliterate it ourselves. It’s funny when I speak to people about joining the NRPAI, they seem to think that the NRPAI has nothing to offer them. I find it difficult to contradict them, as there are no ranges nearby, or competitions nearby. Also as they would mainly be rabbit hunters, having to use subsonic ammunition on ranges does not appeal to them, particularly as they are aware that subsonic .22 ammo is far more likely to ricochet than high velocity. The argument about subsonic being more accurate does not hold water as they would like to be able to compete with what they would use normally and improve their skills with this. Sounds reasonable as I cannot see target shooters changing to high velocity ammo when they need to be proficient with subs for their chosen discipline, rabbit shooters will not want to change to subs when they mainly use high velocity. Perhaps this could be looked at? I know ISSF disciplines use subs but perhaps sports shooters could have their own competitions with high velocity ammo. This would be seen as being inclusive rather than exclusive and perhaps some of these shooters would take up ISSF disciplines as well, who knows? I believe it is because existing rules in clubs prohibit high velocity .22 ammo that it has done more towards dividing shooters rather than uniting them and this continued rift is furthering the view of an “us and them” mentality with regard to sports shooters and target shooters. We all shoot and enjoy our sport, why can we not enjoy it together? In the UK Practical Shotgun, Practical Rifle, Gallery Rifle,.22 Target, .22 Sporting (High Velocity) Muzzle Loaders (pistol and rifle) Archery, Crossbow, Air Pistol, Air Rifle can all be enjoyed in the same venue without any difficulty and I understand there has been some crossover from one discipline to another as people can see what the other sports are like and can then try them out. I can see no reason why we cannot do the same here; in fact it would ease the financial burden on clubs as building/insurance costs would be spread over a larger number of members. It will never happen so long as this “us and them” attitude continues. Times are changing and the only way to protect the sport long term is to adopt a radical new approach. This is not to say that all which has happened previously was wrong but we are in an age when a fresh approach from the ground up is possibly the only way to ensure our sport is there for future generations to enjoy.
    With land for ranges hard to come by, combining with other clubs to develop a multi use facility makes sense, it is only one planning application, one venue for public liability insurance, one venue to be heated, one venue to be secured and will be more appealing to the community if a variety of activities can take place there other than shooting. What a wonderful way to promote our sport, include the local community not exclude. How many clubs hold open days or run family fun days? I am only aware of two BRC and MRC. Both events are very successful and run annually. What about NRPAI on tour? A few air rifles, permission from schools to use their halls/playing fields or the local GAA hall or pitch, insurance, approval from and possibly endorsement from Dept of Education? No need for major licences as the local Superintendent can issue permits for Air Rifles as he does for funfair air rifle ranges. Perhaps it is a loser but we will never know until we try.
    Who knows, it may even lead to schools setting up rifle clubs as happens in some UK schools. Now there is a novel way to promote the sport and also win over some of the 3.8 million people on this Island. Word of caution, this would only work if it was rolled out on a National basis i.e. beyond Dublin. Perhaps a trial run in a number of selected schools would be a good place to start. If schools do not appeal there is also the Scouts and Foroige to be considered. I can almost hear clubs saying ” we tried it locally and it did not work”. Fine, let’s look at why it didn’t work and improve it and try again. After all, failure is the best incentive to try harder next time.
    We have a number of National shooting bodies but unfortunately National seems to mean “my club only”. We need to forget personal differences and inter discipline rows and pull together on this or we will soon have nothing to fight over as we will have nothing. Let’s get proactive rather than reactive and stop the in fighting about what disciplines we approve of or disapprove of. If we go down that road we are doomed to failure, witness the example of the UK in 1987 (Hungerford and Michael Ryan). The NRA told the UK government they could see no reason for a civilian to have a full bore semi-auto rifle. Thousands of COMPETITIVE shooters lost their sport. Dunblane, .22 target shooters told the UK Government that they had no difficulty with a large calibre handgun ban. One month later they lost their .22 Target pistols also. Learn the lesson. Be careful what you say about disciplines other than your own. We have never had a Hungerford or Dunblane here so we should not adopt or even consider adopting similar attitudes to those of the NRA (UK) or UK .22 Target shooters. We are legitimate shooters, we pay for our sport, we are safe in our sport, we enjoy our sport, and our sport includes ALL classes of firearms whether we like it that way or not.


    Regards
    Gouda


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    #45
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Well said.


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    #46
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    gouda wrote:
    If shooting is a minority sport, how come there are approx. 230,000 licensed firearms in this country?
    Because most of those are not used for sports shooting but for hunting and/or vermin control, I'd imagine. I've applied to the Gardai for the actual statistics for last year, we may know soon enough.
    I doubt if there are 230,000 canoeists or track athletes in this country yet they receive TV coverage and Government funding, without contributing a licence fee.
    We do receive TV coverage and government funding, just not much of either by comparison.
    The NARGC has been approached to ask clubs not to publish the names and addresses of club competition winners in local media as it could identify the houses which have guns, thereby increasing the risk of the house being burgled. Funny, I thought the Gardai were supposed to protect us from crime not the NARGC.
    Funnier, the NTSA (who run nothing but competitions and get a little publicity for doing so) have never been approached over this.
    All clubs should be causing uproar over this.
    Which clubs have been actively prevented from publishing details?
    The NRPAI and affiliated bodies (including NTSA,NSA,NASRC etc)
    Don't make the mistake of thinking the NRPAI is a governing body. It isn't - it's basicly a lobbying group comprised of the four groups - the NTSA, NSAI, NASRC and the pony club tetrathlon people, set up so that the Sports Council had one group to talk to instead of four. The NRPAI's constitution forbids it from interfering in the organisation of the sports the constituent bodies run, and it's recognised only by the Sports Council. I put an organisational chart up on the board about this here.
    Pity the NRPAI didn’t recognise that there were a lot of shooters outside Dublin and Wicklow/Wexford and beyond the walls of the Universities.
    Actually, the college clubs aren't NRPAI - they're NTSA. Same goes for WTSC, RRPC and a fair few others. Clubs are meant to affiliate to the governing bodies, not the lobby group. (That's not to say there aren't NRPAI-affiliated clubs out there, but that's a bit on the murky side).
    Perhaps things are changing, there is now Wilkinstown
    Wilkinstown is most assuredly not NRPAI. They are, however, perhaps one of the best clubs in the country for promoting the sport, because they take in juniors like it was going out of fashion (which it may well be with this new Garda policy on U-16s shooting).
    Isn’t it strange that with only 10% of shooters being members of the NARGC they can have a Compensation Fund, permanent offices a full time CEO and a relatively happy and peaceful ship?
    Well, the NTSA charges €15 per year for membership. Our members have individual insurance (most with Countryside Alliance) - that's not included with the membership fee, mind! So a Compensation Fund is both unaffordable and unnecessary. We don't have paid staff either, so permanent offices wouldn't be of use. As to happy and peaceful... well, relative is the important word there, for all shooting associations!
    Why don’t the NRPAI chase the other 90% and see what they can achieve?
    Because the NRPAI shouldn't have individual members, it's contrary to it's purpose.
    At least they should look at setting up County bodies to help promote the sport.
    There aren't enough NTSA-affiliated clubs to warrant it, alas. It's something we're working on.
    I know quite a lot of people who do not realise that the NRPAI exist. Wonderful job of PR, keep it up and we won’t need the Government to prevent us from having our sport, we can obliterate it ourselves.
    Yes. Well. If I got into that, I'd be sued. Not kidding.
    It’s funny when I speak to people about joining the NRPAI, they seem to think that the NRPAI has nothing to offer them.
    For an individual, they're right - it's the governing bodies that people should be affiliating to!
    I find it difficult to contradict them, as there are no ranges nearby, or competitions nearby. Also as they would mainly be rabbit hunters, having to use subsonic ammunition on ranges does not appeal to them, particularly as they are aware that subsonic .22 ammo is far more likely to ricochet than high velocity.
    Why couldn't they use subsonic on the range and supersonic off the range, assuming that the rifle can take it?
    The argument about subsonic being more accurate does not hold water as they would like to be able to compete with what they would use normally and improve their skills with this.
    Well, if that's the case, then they can go ahead and use supersonic ammo on the ranges, subject of course to the decision of the range officer (whom even the governing bodies won't try to overrule).
    There's no actual ISSF rule against supersonic ammo that I can think of off the top of my head (must go check), it's about the weight of the bullet so far as I remember. Shooters just choose subsonics because supersonic is much less accurate thanks to the increased wind drift (higher for super than subsonic because of the physics) and the tumble if they go subsonic before the target line.
    I believe it is because existing rules in clubs prohibit high velocity .22 ammo that it has done more towards dividing shooters rather than uniting them and this continued rift is furthering the view of an “us and them” mentality with regard to sports shooters and target shooters. We all shoot and enjoy our sport, why can we not enjoy it together?
    I can only speak to two or three clubs here on this particular rule, but I understand it's for health and safety as the backstops in DURC and RRPC won't deflect high velocity ammo properly (too much kinetic energy - and as you know, K.E. goes up by the velocity squared, so even small increases in velocity ramp up the kinetic energy at target quite a bit) and in some cases it will punch right through the backstop - I've seen it happen (or more accurately, I've seen the result of it happening - I generally try to avoid watching the backstop when bullets are going through it as you have to be behind the targets to do so :D )

    In the UK Practical Shotgun, Practical Rifle, Gallery Rifle,.22 Target, .22 Sporting (High Velocity) Muzzle Loaders (pistol and rifle) Archery, Crossbow, Air Pistol, Air Rifle can all be enjoyed in the same venue without any difficulty
    Er, where exactly? I don't know of anywhere where ISSF 10m Air Rifle and UKPSA Practical Shotgun get within an ass's roar of each other, especially not when ISSF and the IPSC are not the best of friends!
    and I understand there has been some crossover from one discipline to another as people can see what the other sports are like and can then try them out.
    While I'm not saying that crossover's not a good idea (I think it's one of the best), I've only really seen it work in a few cases. Pony Club to NTSA is a common one as we both shoot 10m air rifle. I've seen Nick Flood try NSAI to NTSA, and he did reasonably well at it, though nowhere near the level he was at in silhouette. And there are shooters like those in FSC who seemed to be interested in just about anything that went bang, pop, whoosh or sproing :D
    I can see no reason why we cannot do the same here; in fact it would ease the financial burden on clubs as building/insurance costs would be spread over a larger number of members.

    To be honest, financial burdens aren't the main problem in setting up clubs, legal burdens are - planning permission, being allowed to shoot on the range, and so on.
    Financial is a pretty solid second place.


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    #47
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Times are changing and the only way to protect the sport long term is to adopt a radical new approach. This is not to say that all which has happened previously was wrong but we are in an age when a fresh approach from the ground up is possibly the only way to ensure our sport is there for future generations to enjoy.
    Last time I said that, I needed a kevlar suit and a helmet afterwards :D
    With land for ranges hard to come by, combining with other clubs to develop a multi use facility makes sense, it is only one planning application, one venue for public liability insurance, one venue to be heated, one venue to be secured and will be more appealing to the community if a variety of activities can take place there other than shooting.
    And for most disciplines, you're correct - but as I've said, in public, more than once, if you have a discipline like IPSC taking place, and the press got one look at it, we'd all be in the can by the end of the week. They'd have a field day with us and even the best PR operation wouldn't help. And we don't have the best PR operation, we have a few volunteers, even fewer of whom have any kind of formal training.
    How many clubs hold open days or run family fun days? I am only aware of two BRC and MRC.
    Family fun days? Well, WTSC's juniors are usually strongly supported by their parents who travel to watch little Jimmy or whomever at the National Championships or whatever shoot it happens to be. And they've run charity events as well - but actual "open days" are a bit tough from insurance and legal viewpoints.
    Both events are very successful and run annually. What about NRPAI on tour?
    The NRPAI did a stand in the midlands fair for a while - it resulted in very few members joining, and virtually no PR outside of Countryside Alliance Ireland's newsletter.
    A few air rifles, permission from schools to use their halls/playing fields or the local GAA hall or pitch, insurance, approval from and possibly endorsement from Dept of Education? No need for major licences as the local Superintendent can issue permits for Air Rifles as he does for funfair air rifle ranges. Perhaps it is a loser but we will never know until we try.
    Well, the midlands fair did see this being tried at a major event where most of the people present were into field sports and a fair percentage would have owned firearms - turns out that air rifle (ISSF air rifle anyway) is just not that popular. :(
    Who knows, it may even lead to schools setting up rifle clubs as happens in some UK schools. Now there is a novel way to promote the sport and also win over some of the 3.8 million people on this Island. Word of caution, this would only work if it was rolled out on a National basis i.e. beyond Dublin. Perhaps a trial run in a number of selected schools would be a good place to start. If schools do not appeal there is also the Scouts and Foroige to be considered. I can almost hear clubs saying ” we tried it locally and it did not work”.
    Wilkinstown tried it locally and it worked very well indeed - right up until the school board had a fit and demanded insurance that would cover anyone within an ass's roar of the school who got injured in any way at all, even though this was air rifle indoors...
    Recently they were asked to come back and run it again - but now they can't, because the Attorney-General has given notice that under-16s shooting is illegal under the Firearms Act, even if it's with daddy's air rifle.
    We have a number of National shooting bodies but unfortunately National seems to mean “my club only”. We need to forget personal differences and inter discipline rows and pull together on this or we will soon have nothing to fight over as we will have nothing.
    Some of those interdiscipline rows weren't interdisciplinary, but interpersonal and should be dropped faster than a hot potato. But some of the differences were more, well, professional in nature (for lack of a better term) and have real basis in fact, rather than being just a clash of egos. Those are more serious and cannot just be dropped, but need actual work to resolve - and some may not even be resolvable but may boil down to a complete conflict of interests!
    Let’s get proactive rather than reactive
    In part, that's one of the reasons to have this forum, so definitely, we have to.
    Learn the lesson. Be careful what you say about disciplines other than your own.
    Ah, but the lesson also includes policing our own lest we be policed! Remember, part of the reason pistol shooting got shafted in the UK was that the lunatic fringe of the fullbore pistol shooters there (a tiny, tiny minority, I'll point out) gave the worst interviews and the worst public image that was possible to give without actually shooting someone. We're talking here about people driving to the shooting range with a 9mm tucked into their belt, walking up to the firing point and unloading several magazines into the sandbank, sans target, and then sticking the 9mm back in the holster and driving off. Idiots like that need to be severely sanctioned by the clubs they drag down. Note that this isn't discipline-bashing - this is a case of unsafe individuals with firearms. The discipline is irrelevant. And the lesson's not been learnt so far - I see the BASC hasn't called for the prosecution of the idiots who killed and wounded three people in the UK in lamping accidents over the past few weeks because they shot at a target they couldn't see. That is a mistake you expect a responsible group to condemn because it's so serious and so preventable at the same time. It's just plain irresponsible to pull the trigger if you can't see your target, plain and simple.
    We are legitimate shooters, we pay for our sport, we are safe in our sport, we enjoy our sport, and our sport includes ALL classes of firearms whether we like it that way or not.
    Hand in hand with that, however go two things;
    1) We cannot afford at this point in time to go about acting like we're in a position of strength, not while there are amendments to the firearms act being sent to Committee (the second reading of the CJB is number 14 on todays Order Papers for the Dail, by the way). The fact is that we don't have a right to our sport, as you pointed out, and we have to act accordingly - that doesn't mean acquiese, but it does mean to act like it's a negotiation, not a civil rights case.
    2) While we may want all classes of firearm, we may not want all classes of people - just those who behave responsibly with firearms. Dunno about you, but I don't want my name tied up with someone who knocks back six beers then heads off to the fields to fire a shotgun in the air in the middle of the night...


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    #48
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    Any word on how applications for imports/firearms certs have been going lately?


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    #49
    les45
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭les45


    Civ, I applied for a permit for a .22 Target pistol on the 27/July and picked up permit mid September, I have also applied for a permit for my .45 Practical Pistol , and following a meeting with my local firearms officer was informed that this permit would also be issued. I am a member of a target/practical pistol club in N.I and such membership was sufficent for the applications to be sucessful, I have applied for import licenece from D.O.J, by the way practical pistol is alive and well on the island of Ireland!!, and we dont run around in combats. In my dealings with the local firearms officer he has being most helpful, I will keep you posted.


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    #50
    Chipboard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭Chipboard


    I have been interested in handguns for years and now that the ground seems to have shifted in my favour I was wondering if anyone could advise as to how I should proceed. I own a .22 and 12 guage and I am extremely safety conscious. I am a member of a range which currently only has clay pidgeon shooting and a rifle range but I'd say they would be favourably disposed to allowing handguns in. I've gone to the States to shoot but obviously I cant afford to do that on an ongoing basis. I'm a bit confused by all this talk of importation certs and its seems to be a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'd like to start off with a .22 pistol and obviously I would like to keep on the good side of my local firearms officer. Can anyone give me any pointers.


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    #51
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    The import cert thing seems to have been overstated. Import certs have been granted, and firearms dealers are able to order them in from Irish wholesalers like other types of firearm.


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    #52
    les45
    Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭les45


    Chip, if you contact the Midland club, or City of Dublin pistol club, they will advise you on your best course of action, your local firearms dealer will also advise you on pistols etc, at the moment I gather that Beretta ,CZ are available ,personally the Beretta 87 is a fine pistol and one that I would go with the Beretta, best of luck, by the way where did you shoot in the States???


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    #53
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    I know the Midland Rifle Club are setting up pistol firing points, have other ranges plans in place to do similar to facilitate pistol shooting?

    Also, it seems to me there will be a need for setting up some competitions in short order to allow people to compete. What comps do people forsee?


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    #54
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    civdef wrote:
    The import cert thing seems to have been overstated. Import certs have been granted, and firearms dealers are able to order them in from Irish wholesalers like other types of firearm.

    Ok,can you state exactly which wholesalers HAVE received import licencesi.e Ardee Sports,Gowen and Bradshaw,Millards,Ballymount Sports,Kendall Monson etc; not rumour or hearsay or third hand. Also it would be helpful if you could state how many individuals have RECEIVED import licences and the countries from which they imported them. Also please state ,if possible, whether these pistols were licensed in the North or Isle of Man etc. Calibre info and other relevant info highly desirable i.e. circumstances surrounding applications. It would also be useful to state which dealers are CURRENTLY stocking pistol ammunition and actual pistols. Gossip needs to be stopped so 100% factual information only,please. It would be a great help if someone who has been granted/refused import licence would comment,other than shooters with Northern Ireland licensed pistols. Civdef, please don't take offence, I am just trying to nail the mis information going around and would like to clarify the situation for all concerned.

    Gouda


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    #55
    civdef
    Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    No offence Gouda, I'm going on information given to me by a firearms dealer, I was as surprised as anyone to hear it.

    I'm not going to name names as of yet, as i believe that would be unfair to those concerned - as you point out, I can't confirm it definitely.

    The situation as I have been led to understand it is that at least one wholesaler has received an import licence, and is awaiting a delivery this week, which will then be passed on to dealers as per usual. These would be new from the manufacturer.

    I'll know for certain later in the week and will pass on the info then.


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    #56
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    civdef wrote:
    No offence Gouda, I'm going on information given to me by a firearms dealer, I was as surprised as anyone to hear it.

    I'm not going to name names as of yet, as i believe that would be unfair to those concerned - as you point out, I can't confirm it definitely.

    The situation as I have been led to understand it is that at least one wholesaler has received an import licence, and is awaiting a delivery this week, which will then be passed on to dealers as per usual. These would be new from the manufacturer.

    I'll know for certain later in the week and will pass on the info then.

    No offence taken,it seems you are being told the same unconfirmed info. It needs to be clarified as I have gone to a lot of hassle trying to confirm the info,unsuccessfully to date. It is because of the rumours that people are going around chasing ghosts. Some solid info is required, shooters using larger than .22 should be able to say where they are getting ammo without upsetting anyone. Can only be good for the dealers. Look forward to confirmation.


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    #57
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    On that ammo point - I've heard myself that a few people were buying the ammo up north on their NI FAC and then bringing it across the border on their ROI Cert - but I've checked with the DoJ and they specifically prohibit that. So it's a really bad idea for anyone who's wondering if it's legal...


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    #58
    gouda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭gouda


    Sparks wrote:
    On that ammo point - I've heard myself that a few people were buying the ammo up north on their NI FAC and then bringing it across the border on their ROI Cert - but I've checked with the DoJ and they specifically prohibit that. So it's a really bad idea for anyone who's wondering if it's legal...
    Not sure if it's a good idea to go running to DoJ on these issues, they are following a particular agenda which is not always compatible with legit shooters requirements. If the individual has a European Firearms Pass, I fail to see how they would be causing any difficulty for DoJ. Euro Pass permits 500rds for any calibre specified on it. On what grounds specifically do DoJ prohibit this. Perhaps another example of DoJ making their own rules contrary to Government legislation, if so there is nothing new there. Sparks, I do not mean to sound like a pain in the $%^ but I believe you should really post the exact reason for the DoJ's position or if you are not 100% certain, do not post until you can verify 100%. Otherwise the board will become a haven for rumour and gossip when it should be a board for facts rather than speculation. Problem with the post definitely NOT with the poster.


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    #59
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Gouda, your first sentence implies asking direct questions of the DoJ is a bad idea; your last few say that you need to ask them before posting here! For the record, if you have a query regarding the legality of an act, I believe you are well advised to ask the firearms unit of the DoJ, or the Gardai - because sooner or later you'll have to ask them anyway, and the practicalities of human relations means that asking sooner will get you a much more hassle-free process. If you receive an answer you don't want to receive, then you are free to challange it - but if you just ignore them, you're looking at a lot more trouble for yourself, and you'll be bringing bad PR on every other shooter out there as well.

    As to the DoJ's position, I don't believe we'll ever be able to learn the reason for the position, but a simple question verifies the position itself - if you're bringing firearms or ammunition into the country for the first time, regardless of whether you have those firearms or that ammunition on another firearms licence in another jurisdiction, then you must have an importation order. That's right from the DoJ now, not from me. The grounds on which they make that determination are irrelevant if you're caught - if you want to challange the policy you really want to do so prior to bringing in ammunition, not after the fact!

    Believe me, the last thing we want now is someone to get caught making the mistake of thinking that they're legal when they're not, and being arrested for illegal possession of a firearm!


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    #60
    Irishglockfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Irishglockfan


    And this is precisely the core point of this import arguement.
    If you are liscensed by our leo[gardai] to posses a firearm in Ireland,that means you are entitled to posses it and ammo in this state.
    Why then is DOJ insisting on an import certificate?AND why are they supposedly obfusticating the issue for two months?AND not giving one coherent answer to all applicants?AND do we have any figures as to how many applications /liscenses granted are coming thru within the usual 12 week[seemingly] liscense renewal period??
    By rights if I am entitled to own the gun in this state ,it should be irrevlent if i have bought it in Ireland,England or Jalabad.It is now my liscensed property and i should be able to bring it into ireland without any further ado.If Doj insist on the import cert clause ,fine.But then on issuance of my firearms cert i should be able to get this import cert fastracked thru DOJ.

    If it is a car i simply re register it [and pay an illegal fee under EU law].Go to my local motor tax office and pay an[exhorbitant]road tax fee,then go and [be fleeced again] by the NCT I dont have to apply for an import cert from the revenue before i go over to the UK or wherever to buy it.

    This brings me onto the further point of the import cert/EU firearms passport.
    The firearms passport was desinged to do away with all the import/export paperwork between member states.As the firearms laws were so varied on continental europe this was logical,EG as it was likely that an Irish cert would be incomprehensible to a Danish police officer and vise versa.

    The firearms passport is exactly that.you register your legally held guns on it or the one you want to buy via your local firearms authorithy.if you havent got it on the passport it cant travel or be bought.
    This works all over Europe except here and the UK apprently in some cases being not undestood ?Why not here??

    Is this a case of DOJ worrying that their area is being upsurped by European law?
    Not knowing the European directive?
    DOJ seemingly doesnt give an explanation[which usually says around here, we dont know,and we will hide behind the decline to comment or not at liberty to say excuse]
    What does this import cert actually DO?Apart from the obvious of course.Is it a further revenue gatherer?
    Now what some of the others who vangaurded this affair of returning the pistols have simply said is;get it liscensed and simply go and collect it yourself in Europe,or the USA. you are liscensed to own it here so you are simply bringing your own property home. CAVET EMPTOR on this !!!
    the only place i could see this being anyway revelent would be if you were importing from outside the EU from the US and you were dealing with the State dept on large quantities of weapons.

    Usually the US dealers who handle international shipments are State dept Class 3[I think] liscensed and will only ship to another liscensed dealer in the reciving country.[your local gun dealer here].both dealers do a FFL transfer AFIK,so they regulate the paperwork,you as the customer are not involved again in requiring the import cert.So i am at a compleate loss as to why DOJ import/and peversely export certs are still required???
    Anyone got some coherent ideas on this??

    it seems to me to be a joint Garda /DOJ buckpassing enterprise.Gaurds;talk to DOJ ,they are our bosses. DOJ ;talk to the Gardai they are the deciders on firearms liscenseing and imports
    This seems to happen alot on various matters relating to these two forces here. The garda cheif says the min of justice and the doj is his boss.yet the min of justice says he does not get involved in the day to day running of the gaurds,nor will comment on their policies!!!
    S o it seems you could end up with a liscensed firearm,yet without an import cert to legally bring it in?what then?who do you turn to? you could be doing a PTO written on both sides of a sheet of paper between these two depts forever if they wanted to do so to you.


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    #61
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Irishglockfan wrote:
    Why then is DOJ insisting on an import certificate?
    Because the licence allows you to have the firearm inside the state. To bring it into the state, the law says you need an importation order. Whether or not that makes sense to us is irrelevant. If a law doesn't make sense, you change it then do what it was preventing.
    AND why are they supposedly obfusticating the issue for two months?AND not giving one coherent answer to all applicants?AND do we have any figures as to how many applications /liscenses granted are coming thru within the usual 12 week[seemingly] liscense renewal period??
    We don't know, basicly. We could make educated guesses given the proximity of the release of the amendments to the Firearms Acts, but frankly it doesn't strike me as expending energy in the right direction - better to concentrate on the amendments themselves, not what's happening prior to their release since whatever does happen before they come out will be rendered irrelevant by their release.
    By rights if I am entitled to own the gun in this state ,it should be irrevlent if i have bought it in Ireland,England or Jalabad.It is now my liscensed property and i should be able to bring it into ireland without any further ado.
    The correct course of action then is for you to challange that in the courts; not to break the law because it seems inconvienent to you.
    If Doj insist on the import cert clause ,fine.But then on issuance of my firearms cert i should be able to get this import cert fastracked thru DOJ.
    True, and usually that's what happened - but right now we're in a rather odd time with regard to firearms legislation in that we know it's about to change and outside the DoJ we suspect those changes may render whole classes of firearms illegal - and if that's right, then it makes sense that they'd be reluctant to issue importation orders for them (it does make sense, just not sense we might particularly like ourselves, you understand).
    If it is a car i simply re register it [and pay an illegal fee under EU law].Go to my local motor tax office and pay an[exhorbitant]road tax fee,then go and [be fleeced again] by the NCT I dont have to apply for an import cert from the revenue before i go over to the UK or wherever to buy it.
    If it's a car, you also have to pay mandatory insurance (of quite a bit more than the countryside alliance shooting insurance or the NARGC's compensation fund) and pass state tests to get a licence and have a much larger body of legislation pointed in your direction! Swings and roundabouts...
    Now what some of the others who vangaurded this affair of returning the pistols have simply said is;get it liscensed and simply go and collect it yourself in Europe,or the USA. you are liscensed to own it here so you are simply bringing your own property home. CAVET EMPTOR on this !!!
    I'll just point out that this is highly illegal and tends to be called gun-running. Comment past that appears tautological, other than to say that I'd be interested in a quiet chat with the people saying this. :mad: :mad: :mad:
    Anyone got some coherent ideas on this??
    My coherent idea is that it's a red herring, and by wasting time worrying about it now, you'd be putting energy into ancillary legislation when the primary legislation is about to be changed - and that primary legislation is where we need to be focussed.
    talk to the Gardai they are the deciders on firearms liscenseing and imports
    Not quite - the Gardai decide on actual firearms licences. The DoJ decide on actual importation orders. And the Minister works on the legislation.
    This seems to happen alot on various matters relating to these two forces here. The garda cheif says the min of justice and the doj is his boss.yet the min of justice says he does not get involved in the day to day running of the gaurds,nor will comment on their policies!!!
    That's in effect correct. The Minister decides on overall direction and policy, not day-to-day operations. The Commissioner decides on policies to achieve what the Minister wants. And the Deputy Commissioners handle the more day-to-day operations. Otherwise, you'd have one person trying to do everything and do long-term stuff as well. This means that if your licence is refused, it's not clear if it's the Minister's problem - it might be a systemic problem or an individual one, so there's no clear answer to give.
    So it seems you could end up with a liscensed firearm,yet without an import cert to legally bring it in?
    Precisely. And if you bring it in illegally, you could be arrested for it and then all target shooting gets its name blackened.
    what then?who do you turn to? you could be doing a PTO written on both sides of a sheet of paper between these two depts forever if they wanted to do so to you.
    Yup. Which is why confrontational tactics are in the end, self-destructive when it comes to dealing with government bodies.


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