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Teacherslookup.com & Data Protection legislation

124

Comments

  • #152
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    You must be a special case katydid and as you've already said you aren't worried about your information appearing on teachers lookup then there's probably nothing I can help you with.

    If you're curious, try some of the links gaiscioch posted here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96659352&postcount=138
    Hardly a special case. I use google.ie, and, like other people on this tread, I got results that make no mention whatsoever of this teacherlookup website.

    It's nothing to do with me; personally I don't care about this publicly available information being easily available.

    What I do care is misinformation. And that is what is going on here. A simple search of google.ie, involving total fifteen different names, did not result in one single link to this website. Other people have done the same, with the same result. So to imply that when any teacher puts their name into google it will be linked with the website is simply untrue.

    I looked up the links Gaiscioch posted, and, as I said, the phrase in the search box appears as "site: ie.teacherslookup.com Mary O'Brien". That is not a simple search of a person's name. Of course the name will turn up in connection with teacherslookup.com if you type that into the search box!


  • #153
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    Hardly a special case. I use google.ie, and, like other people on this tread, I got results that make no mention whatsoever of this teacherlookup website.

    It's nothing to do with me; personally I don't care about this publicly available information being easily available.

    What I do care is misinformation. And that is what is going on here. A simple search of google.ie, involving in total fifteen different names, did not result in one single link to this website. Other people have done the same, with the same result. So to imply that when any teacher puts their name into google it will be linked with the website is simply untrue.

    I looked up the links Gaiscioch posted, and, as I said, the phrase in the search box appears as "site: ie.teacherslookup.com Mary O'Brien". That is not a simple search of a person's name. Of course the name will turn up in connection with teacherslookup.com if you type that into the search box!

    ok, glad you worked it all out.


  • #154
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    ok, glad you worked it all out.

    Yep, I worked it out that a simple google search does NOT bring up the person's name in connection with the website. This claim is untrue and misleading.


  • #155
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    Hardly a special case. I use google.ie, and, like other people on this tread, I got results that make no mention whatsoever of this teacherlookup website.

    It's nothing to do with me; personally I don't care about this publicly available information being easily available.

    What I do care is misinformation. And that is what is going on here. A simple search of google.ie, involving total fifteen different names, did not result in one single link to this website. Other people have done the same, with the same result. So to imply that when any teacher puts their name into google it will be linked with the website is simply untrue.

    I looked up the links Gaiscioch posted, and, as I said, the phrase in the search box appears as "site: ie.teacherslookup.com Mary O'Brien". That is not a simple search of a person's name. Of course the name will turn up in connection with teacherslookup.com if you type that into the search box!

    OK, you don't believe us. Can't you just leave it at that though?

    Did other people contact the TC, and get an email saying they'd get back to you?I'd be a bit less fretful if I knew i was on a medium-sized list of numbers they're going to ring, at least then I wouldn't worry that they've just forgotten me. I wonder if it would do any good if I rang them.


  • #156
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Graham wrote: »
    Googles rankings algorithms change the positions/visibility of those pages on a continuous basis. Once the page containing your details is in the Google index, it is likely to appear in basic searches over time.

    This is a very relevant post. In other words, those people who aren't in the first page now of a Google search - but who we've established, via a Google search today, are further down in Google at the moment - will appear higher up the Google search as the site grows (as it's doing).

    Will people take even a medium-term view of this control of, and publication of, information given to the TCI in good faith that is now held by a private commercial US firm which, unlike the Teaching Council of Ireland, is not governed by Irish data protection legislation.


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  • #157
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    beveragelady wrote: »
    OK, you don't believe us. Can't you just leave it at that though? at they've just forgotten me. I wonder if it would do any good if I rang them.


    I'm saying that when I log on to google.ie and type in someone's name, the person's name does NOT come up in connection with the site. I did it fifteen times.

    I have provided evidence of this. You haven't provided evidence of what you claim. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying that for some reason when you log on to google.ie and type in someone's name, the person's name comes up in connection to this site. Can you provide a link to what the result of your search is, so we can compare both searches? That might clear up the mystery.
    We've cleared up the mystery with Gaiscioch - he's typing in
    "site: ie.teacherslookup.com Mary O'Brien", so naturally the link will appear in his search results.

    No, I won't "leave it at that". If you claim that a simple google search of the kind I described brings a certain result, and if several searches disprove that claim, the onus on those making the claim is to qualify it.


  • #158
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Graham wrote: »
    EDIT: I stand corrected, there are now 54,800 pages indexed. The number of pages has almost tripled over the last two days.

    The one or two people here whose names have still not come up on that US website via a simple Google search can rest assured that if the above rate of growth continues, they'll be up before the end of the week.


  • #159
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,263 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Google in many cases returns personalised results, so what I get on searching for 'John Byrne' will be different from what katydid gets, or anyone else for that matter.


  • #160
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    I'm saying that when I log on to google.ie and type in someone's name, the person's name does NOT come up in connection with the site. I did it fifteen times.

    I have provided evidence of this. You haven't provided evidence of what you claim. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying that for some reason when you log on to google.ie and type in someone's name, the person's name comes up in connection to this site. Can you provide a link to what the result of your search is, so we can compare both searches? That might clear up the mystery.
    We've cleared up the mystery with Gaiscioch - he's typing in
    "site: ie.teacherslookup.com Mary O'Brien", so naturally the link will appear in his search results.

    No, I won't "leave it at that". If you claim that a simple google search of the kind I described brings a certain result, and if several searches disprove that claim, the onus on those making the claim is to qualify it.

    It happens in my case. If you've been paying attention you'll understand why I'm not going to tell you my name so you can look it up. What you believe doesn't matter.
    I get that you don't believe me, and I understand why. I don't see why somebody for whom this is a non-issue is spending so much time on the thread.


  • #161
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    beveragelady wrote: »
    It happens in my case. If you've been paying attention you'll understand why I'm not going to tell you my name so you can look it up. What you believe doesn't matter.
    I get that you don't believe me, and I understand why. I don't see why somebody for whom this is a non-issue is spending so much time on the thread.

    It also now happens for my name. A simple Google search returns only one perfect match (as opposed to just my first name or just my surname) - my listing on this website.


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  • #162
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    beveragelady wrote: »
    It happens in my case. If you've been paying attention you'll understand why I'm not going to tell you my name so you can look it up. What you believe doesn't matter.
    I get that you don't believe me, and I understand why. I don't see why somebody for whom this is a non-issue is spending so much time on the thread.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen in your case. I'm saying it doesn't happen in the fifteen cases I tried. Which is rather strange.

    You don't need to use your own name to give me an example. I haven't given an example using mine, the six names I posted were made up and the nine I tried of names known to me included my own. I was wondering how you were searching. Gaiscioch, for example, was searching specifically for this site so obviously it's going to come up. When you enter a name, any name, do you do so directly in the normal google.ie search engine? I am going to do it randomly now with another name I've pulled out of a hat...here goes:
    I type "teacherlookup Jennifer Power" and the first, entry is in her name and linked with the teacherlookup site.
    https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=pIdTVZviKcWp7AbHw4OQBA#q=teacherlookup+Jennifer+Power

    I type in "Jennifer Power" and the first four entries are to LinkedIn, with no mention of the teacherlookup website anywhere on the page
    https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=pIdTVZviKcWp7AbHw4OQBA#q=Jennifer+Power

    No matter what name I put in, the same result happens. That's sixteen different searches now. This is why I think you're not doing a simple google search but are adding something.

    It is not a non-issue that people are posting misleading and untrue information here. YOU are, for some reason, getting a direct link to this site; it may be your search method or there may be some other explanation. I just take exception to the implication that it is the norm that you will be linked to this site when you type in your name in a direct google search.


  • #163
    derb12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭derb12


    Putting in really common typical Irish names proves nothing. If I google Mary Murphy or similar, there are hundreds of links because there are hundreds of people around the world with this name and all their linkedin pages, facebook accounts etc (and in this case one Ms Murphy is a prominent choreographer!) clutter up the first few pages of google search results, with a ratemyteachers link on page 4. You are actually less likely to find someone with a really common name on the site.

    I put in the slightly unusual name of a colleague and up pops her teacherslookup entry on the first page returned. No comments as yet. I tried 5 teachers and myself and found 2 out of the 6 on teacherslookup. I now know that the other guy who had an entry on the site only has conditional (H&S?) registration, which is none of my business. I could have found this out with an additional click on the teachers look-up on the TC site, but I can find it more easily on the new site. A person doesn't even need to know that my colleague is a teacher in order to find her workplace.

    I'm fully with those who think this is a complete disgrace. The teaching council have allowed information about some of their paid-up members to be taken from their database and held on servers abroad. It adds no new information to the world but gives students another opportunity to comment on their teachers anonymously.

    The bit about us being public servants with nothing to hide? Yes that's fine as long as every other person paid by the state also has a website I can search, find out their reg no, address of their place of work and status of registration and leave a comment if say, a nurse is a bit rough with a needle taking a blood sample, or a garda keeps me waiting too long for my passport photo or a clerical officer makes a mistake while getting copies of my kids' birth certs.

    You get one shot at your privacy. If you decide to put up tagged photos of yourself all over the place and chart the progress of your life openly through facebook, then this new website will seem like no big deal. You've decided to abandon your privacy yourself. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to live their life that way.

    And by the way, searching google.ie doesn't mean that the results are resources which are located in Ireland.


  • #164
    RealJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    katydid wrote: »
    No, I won't "leave it at that". If you claim that a simple google search of the kind I described brings a certain result, and if several searches disprove that claim, the onus on those making the claim is to qualify it.
    Didn't you claim that, as public servants, the public have a right to know the details being provided on that site? Have you provided any evidence of this yet or is the onus only on other people to back their claims up while you are exempt?

    This whole thing doesn't bother me much personally as I have a very common name but it is worrying that this sort of thing is going on. People absolutely are not entitled to know where I work, what my TC registration number is (which is part of the data that comes up on the site), my registration status etc. The people who are entitled to some of that data are my students, their parents, maybe the parents of prospective students and, of course, my employers (or future employers). They can access all of that from the TC's website if they're looking for me specifically in my professional capacity.

    Some bunny boiler I meet on a night out should not be able to turn up at the school gate thanks to a simple google search.


  • #165
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »
    It also now happens for my name. A simple Google search returns only one perfect match (as opposed to just my first name or just my surname) - my listing on this website.
    Strange. Only one perfect match? No FB or LinkedIn references? Nobody else with your name at all? You must have a really unusual name... :-)

    Mine is relatively unusual, the only one of that name on the TC register, but when I google it, two other people of the same name, of two different professions, come up before mine. Mine comes up way down the page in connection with my college's Moodle site.

    Just tried another name of someone I know who's a teacher. For the first time I got a hit with the teacherlookup link, but it's fourth down the page. No other hits from Ireland comes up - his name is fairly unusual - but there are other hits referring to people from New Zealand and the States. Weird that you get only one hit for your name and it's yours.


  • #166
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Didn't you claim that, as public servants, the public have a right to know the details being provided on that site? Have you provided any evidence of this yet or is the onus only on other people to back their claims up while you are exempt?

    This whole thing doesn't bother me much personally as I have a very common name but it is worrying that this sort of thing is going on. People absolutely are not entitled to know where I work, what my TC registration number is (which is part of the data that comes up on the site), my registration status etc. The people who are entitled to some of that data are my students, their parents, maybe the parents of prospective students and, of course, my employers (or future employers). They can access all of that from the TC's website if they're looking for me specifically in my professional capacity.

    Some bunny boiler I meet on a night out should not be able to turn up at the school gate thanks to a simple google search.

    No, I didn't provide any evidence for it. It's just common sense; as a public servant, working in a capacity where you are interacting with the public on a daily basis, I see no reason not to have one's basic details in relation to one's job listed.

    If your students, their parents etc. have the right to have access to that information, why not future prospective students and their parents? Why not the general public? You are in a job with a public profile - you stand up in front of hundreds of people every day.

    If a bunny boiler wants to find you, she will...


  • #167
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    derb12 wrote: »
    Putting in really common typical Irish names proves nothing. If I google Mary Murphy or similar, there are hundreds of links because there are hundreds of people around the world with this name and all their linkedin pages, facebook accounts etc (and in this case one Ms Murphy is a prominent choreographer!) clutter up the first few pages of google search results, with a ratemyteachers link on page 4. You are actually less likely to find someone with a really common name on the site.

    I put in the slightly unusual name of a colleague and up pops her teacherslookup entry on the first page returned. .

    Most teachers have fairly common names...there are 24 Mary O'Briens on the TC register, for example. Statistically, someone searching for names would be searching for common names.

    As for uncommon names, in my first search, I specifically picked names of teachers I know, who have uncommon names. I checked on the TC register, and in each case, they were the only ones of that name listed. NONE of those came up on a simple google search with any connection to the teacherlookup website.

    It all seems very arbitrary and random.

    I don't disagree with anyone that this website is unethical and probably illegal. I do disagree, however, that the norm is for a teacher's name to come up.


  • #168
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    katydid wrote: »
    Strange. Only one perfect match? No FB or LinkedIn references? Nobody else with your name at all? You must have a really unusual name... :-)

    Mine is relatively unusual, the only one of that name on the TC register, but when I google it, two other people of the same name, of two different professions, come up before mine. Mine comes up way down the page in connection with my college's Moodle site.

    Just tried another name of someone I know who's a teacher. For the first time I got a hit with the teacherlookup link, but it's fourth down the page. No other hits from Ireland comes up - his name is fairly unusual - but there are other hits referring to people from New Zealand and the States. Weird that you get only one hit for your name and it's yours.

    Yes I have a very unusual name - the combination of first name and surname particularly. As I said already, no Google links at all other than this. No need for your incredulous questions or condescending smiley - I was quite clear in what I said.


  • #169
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »
    Yes I have a very unusual name - the combination of first name and surname particularly. As I said already, no Google links at all other than this. No need for your incredulous questions or condescending smiley - I was quite clear in what I said.
    I never said I didn't believe you. Hence the smiley - to show I wasn't being passive aggressive.

    But you have to admit that for the vast majority of people, a google search will bring up more than one entry for their name.


  • #170
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Any chance we could quit arguing about Google searches and go back to discussing the leak itself? Particularly since it's already been said that google results differ depending on your site history, particularly if you happen to be logged into your gmail account.

    More info here: http://themetaq.com/articles/reasons-your-google-search-results-are-different-than-mine

    Back to the teaching council. Can't believe they still haven't responded on this. Has anyone contacted the data commissioner?

    And on a different tack, is there any other branch of the public service where employment status and place of work are publicly available on a website?

    Edit: just checked the medical council and they only have the county as an address. Nurses have no addres whatsoever. Seems bonkers for the TC to have the school.


  • #171
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    And on a different tack, is there any other branch of the public service where employment status and place of work are publicly available on a website?

    There's quite a few websites where personally identifiable information is available but most of them have a flag set to ask search engines not to index the content.

    Although none of these are public service, I think the law society holds something similar, same for chartered accountants and the medical council. The difference appears to be they've all (by luck or planning) managed to prevent the registers leaking wholesale to the internet at large.

    Data is available for councillors and TDs but they all hold public office rather than being public servants.


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  • #172
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    Most teachers have fairly common names...


    I'm a bit bereft of words at this.


  • #173
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Graham wrote: »
    There's quite a few websites where personally identifiable information is available but most of them have a flag set to ask search engines not to index the content.

    Although none of these are public service, I think the law society holds something similar, same for chartered accountants and the medical council. The difference appears to be they've all (by luck or planning) managed to prevent the registers leaking wholesale to the internet at large.

    Data is available for councillors and TDs but they all hold public office rather than being public servants.

    Medical council has no addresses. Both the law society and chartered accountants have addresses but actually no registration status! However I would argue that because they are publicising their business it makes sense for them whereas that's not necessary for us.


  • #174
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Derb12's point was absolutely spot-on and incisive, and possessed a long-term perspective regarding our privacy. Very well said in a "why did none of us think of that beforehand?" way.

    Perhaps if some teachers don't mind their private work details like occupation and place of employment being in the control of a private foreign firm that is not subject to Irish privacy laws they could tick a box, and those of us who do not tick the box can be assumed to have not given our consent? I have absolutely no problem with that. However, nobody has a right to impose their openness to having an online profile for the world to see on my aspiration for a quiet, fairly anonymous life outside of school with no online profile.

    Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, on my contract of employment with the Irish state was this invasion of privacy part of the deal. If I want to become a public representative, that becomes part of the deal and I would be financially compensated accordingly.

    Finally, as has been said here ad nauseam, the idea that personal details attached to the 300,000 public servants of this state must be made publicly available on a website controlled by a private business (and one beyond Irish data protection law at that), simply because the Irish state pays their salaries, is risible. It really is abjectly ill-informed drivel that gloriously ploughs into a plethora of civil rights.


  • #175
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    D



    Finally, as has been said here ad nauseam, the idea that personal details attached to the 300,000 public servants of this state must be made publicly available on a website controlled by a private business (and one beyond Irish data protection law at that), simply because the Irish state pays their salaries, is risible. .
    Who on this thread is in favour of such a thing?


  • #176
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    I'm a bit bereft of words at this.

    Why? Statistically speaking, you will find more Murphys, O'Neills and McCarthys in any given cohort of Irish people than fFeatherstonehaugs and Cholmondleys.


  • #177
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    Why? Statistically speaking, you will find more Murphys, O'Neills and McCarthys in any given cohort of Irish people than fFeatherstonehaugs and Cholmondleys.

    First, you have to define what you consider to be a "fairly common name" - I want the entire list - and second you have to present evidence of 50% plus 1 teacher ("most") having one of those names. Good luck.


  • #178
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Finally, as has been said here ad nauseam, the idea that personal details attached to the 300,000 public servants of this state must be made publicly available on a website controlled by a private business (and one beyond Irish data protection law at that), simply because the Irish state pays their salaries, is risible. It really is abjectly ill-informed drivel that gloriously ploughs into a plethora of civil rights.

    katydid wrote: »
    Who on this thread is in favour of such a thing?

    Maybe this person?
    katydid wrote: »
    It's a case of reality - the public has a right to know who works in publicly funded institutions.
    katydid wrote: »
    A school is a publicly funded institution. Show me evidence that the public does NOT have the right to know who is employed by them in a publicly funded institution...
    katydid wrote: »
    it's about the public knowing who the staff of an educational establishment are. Hardly unreasonable, given that the taxpayer pays our wages?

    katydid wrote: »
    It's just common sense; as a public servant, working in a capacity where you are interacting with the public on a daily basis, I see no reason not to have one's basic details in relation to one's job listed.

    And, I especially note the "get out of your job if you don't accept my views on privacy" lecture to a poster in this one:
    katydid wrote: »
    This is what I'm taking issue with - you are a public servant, in a public job. You can't expect your workplace not to be named on a professional register.

    If that's a problem for you, you're in the wrong job.

    PS: Any chance you'll answer the questions about the legal basis for all of your views on rights to privacy among Irish public servants? You've been asked several times now.


  • #179
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Maybe this person?

    And, I especially note the "get out of your job if you don't accept my views on privacy" lecture to a poster in this one:



    PS: Any chance you'll answer the questions about the legal basis for all of your views on rights to privacy among Irish public servants? You've been asked several times now.

    What has anything I said got to do with the unethical taking of information by this commercial website? All I ever said was that I see no problem with this information being in the public domain. Which it is, and was long before this site came along.

    You are reading A and understanding B.


  • #180
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    What has anything I said got to do with the unethical taking of information by this commercial website? All I ever said was that I see no problem with this information being in the public domain. Which it is, and was long before this site came along.

    You are reading A and understanding B.

    No, you are creating strawmen in full knowledge that the issue here is that a state database has so incompetently handled private information that it has been pilfered by a commercial organisation beyond Irish law, which now controls it. That is why this thread exists; the thread was not established in reaction to the database per se. Assuming that English is your first language you are fully cognisant of what this is all about. Yet you proceed with your strawmen. Why?

    Even with your strawmen, you haven't presented any legal defence for your decidedly strange idea that all 300,000 public servants do not have a right to privacy regarding their place of employment, profession, and other details. Despite numerous requests, you refuse to answer this. Why?


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  • #181
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    No, you are creating strawmen in full knowledge that the issue here is that a state database has so incompetently handled private information that it has been pilfered by a commercial organisation beyond Irish law, which now controls it. That is why this thread exists; the thread was not established in reaction to the database per se. Assuming that English is your first language you are fully cognisant of what this is all about. Yet you proceed with your strawmen. Why?

    Even with your strawmen, you haven't presented any legal defence for your decidedly strange idea that all 300,000 public servants do not have a right to privacy regarding their place of employment, profession, and other details. Despite numerous requests, you refuse to answer this. Why?

    No, it's quite simple.

    I have no problem with teachers' details being publicly available on the TC website.

    I have a problem with them being available unautorised on a commercial website.

    Some people objected to the information being available at all. I don't.


  • #182
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    No, you are creating strawmen in full knowledge that the issue here is that a state database has so incompetently handled private information that it has been pilfered by a commercial organisation beyond Irish law, which now controls it. That is why this thread exists; the thread was not established in reaction to the database per se. Assuming that English is your first language you are fully cognisant of what this is all about. Yet you proceed with your strawmen. Why?

    Even with your strawmen, you haven't presented any legal defence for your decidedly strange idea that all 300,000 public servants do not have a right to privacy regarding their place of employment, profession, and other details. Despite numerous requests, you refuse to answer this. Why?

    It's not private information. Anyone can go to the TC website and get that information at any time, and they have been able to do so for years. They have been handling this information in much the same way for a long time, it's causing ructions now because another website is copying the information.

    Why is there no kerfuffle about the fact that the TC database has been publicly searchable for years? There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.


  • #183
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    it's causing ructions now because another website is copying the information.

    Why is there no kerfuffle about the fact that the TC database has been publicly searchable for years? There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.

    We've been through this many times now. The difference, once again, is that the TC results did not appear in a Google search. These do. Somebody had to know your profession, and the existence of the TC website before. Now, for most people here a simple google will find their profession, place of employment and other details in the control of a US firm with a comments section underneath for any anonymous person to make comments about an identifiable teacher - none of which is covered under Irish privacy laws thanks to TCI incompetency with our personal information. None of this was the case before. That is the very understandable reason why there is a kerfuffle now.


  • #184
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    I have no problem with teachers' details being publicly available on the TC website.

    After this negligence, you've got to be kidding. Anybody else who now has a problem with trusting the Teaching Council would be very easy to understand. It's one thing the data being tucked away on their website, quite another when they allow it to be mined by a private foreign company beyond Irish law which has a comments section for anonymous people to attack named Irish teachers' reputations. This was never in any deal.
    katydid wrote: »
    I have a problem with them being available unautorised on a commercial website.

    It's impossible not to connect the incompetency of the Teaching Council with the control of this data by a private US company. One cannot object to the latter, while supporting the former given that the latter would never have the data without the ineptitude of the Teaching Council.


  • #185
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    We've been through this many times now. The difference, once again, is that the TC results did not appear in a Google search. These do. Somebody had to know your profession, and the existence of the TC website before. Now, for most people here a simple google will find their profession, place of employment and other details in the control of a US firm with a comments section underneath for any anonymous person to make comments about an identifiable teacher - none of which is covered under Irish privacy laws thanks to TCI incompetency with our personal information. None of this was the case before. That is the very understandable reason why there is a kerfuffle now.

    I can't honestly see why it's TC incompetency. The method of looking for information hasn't changed for years. Why haven't you had a problem with being searchable on their database since 2007? Granted it didn't come up in a google search, but it was still public information.


  • #186
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.

    There is a world of difference between somebody visiting the Teaching Council of Ireland website for the purpose of checking an individuals credentials and someone casually searching for anything at all relating to the same individual.


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  • #187
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    After this negligence, you've got to be kidding. Anybody else who now has a problem with trusting the Teaching Council would be very easy to understand. It's one thing the data being tucked away on their website, quite another when they allow it to be mined by a private foreign company beyond Irish law which has a comments section for anonymous people to attack named Irish teachers' reputations. This was never in any deal.



    It's impossible not to connect the incompetency of the Teaching Council with the control of this data by a private US company. One cannot object to the latter, while supporting the former given that the latter would never have the data without the ineptitude of the Teaching Council.

    I would really appreciate if you would read what I write and not extrapolate things from it which I did not say.

    I said I have no problem with the TC publishing the information. I did NOT say that I don't have a problem with the TC not securing this information so it can't be mined wholesale.


  • #188
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    There is a world of difference between somebody visiting the Teaching Council of Ireland website for the purpose of checking an individuals credentials and someone casually searching for anything at all relating to the same individual.

    Indeed. And the chances of a person casually searching for anything relating to an individual coming across a reference to this website is fairly unlikely.


  • #189
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I can't honestly see why it's TC incompetency. The method of looking for information hasn't changed for years. Why haven't you had a problem with being searchable on their database since 2007? Granted it didn't come up in a google search, but it was still public information.

    First, it's TC incompetency because it did not protect our data from being mined by a private foreign corporation - something it could, and should, have done technically. Second, the data was only breached recently by this firm, which now controls it beyond Irish data protection legislation. It was not breached in 2007 or any other year. The difference for one's privacy between coming up in a Google search and not coming up in a Google search can be massive, which is why there have been very many high profile privacy cases against Google across Europe. That is why.


  • #190
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    The initial query to the Data Protection Office was answered and they said they can't do anything about the data now as this new site is outside Irish law.

    It would be interesting to hear the Data Protection Commissioners position on the Google indexing of this data. Even if the data is on a site outside of Irish Law, I would imagine Google results returned within Ireland are well within the remit of the DPC.

    This data is only of value to the 3rd party site because Google is including it within its search results. If Google were to remove all references to this 3rd party site the site instantly becomes almost worthless.

    Rather than a Data Protection complaint about TCI or Teachers Lookup, it might be worth submitting a data protection complaint about Google making this data available.


  • #191
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    First, it's TC incompetency because it did not protect our data from being mined by a private foreign corporation - something it could, and should, have done technically. Second, the data was only breached recently by this firm, which now controls it beyond Irish data protection legislation. It was not breached in 2007 or any other year. The difference for one's privacy between coming up in a Google search and not coming up in a Google search can be massive, which is why there have been very many high profile privacy cases against Google across Europe. That is why.
    So let's get this clear. You have had no problem with the date being available on the TC website for the past 8 years, right? But you have a problem with them not ensuring no one else could mine the information.

    Is that correct?

    I agree with you so far, if this is the case.


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  • #192
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    has anyone here looked up the data protection commission site yet?

    1. We know the data is public. Is there such a thing as 'more' or 'less' public? Google search vs' TC site search is still public. So I think the privacy issue is lost... and believe me, google won't do nothing going on crazy cases I've heard. So lets just assume that ratemyteachers has set the bar and move on, that ain't goinna change.

    2. Look at how the data was 'handled' by the TC... is there a transfer abroad issue maybe? See here.

    If a data controller can point to one or more of the following eight alternatives, then the transfer of personal data to the third country may proceed:

    (viii) the personal data to be transferred are an extract from a statutory public register, i.e. a register established by law as being available for public consultation, or as being available for consultation by persons with a legitimate interest in its contents. In the latter case, the transfer must be made to a person having such a legitimate interest, and subject to compliance by that person with any relevant conditions

    Comment: It is permissible to make personal data, derived from a public register, available in a third country. It is not permissible to transfer the whole of such a register to a third country. If a statutory register is available for inspection by persons demonstrating a legitimate interest, then this condition – and any other conditions – must be fully complied with before the personal data can be made available.

    3 Maybe the data has been altered in some way! HERE
    3. Where an incident gives rise to a risk of unauthorised disclosure, loss, destruction or alteration of personal data, in manual or electronic form, the data controller must give immediate consideration to informing those affected.[3] Such information permits data subjects to consider the consequences for each of them individually and to take appropriate measures.In appropriate cases, data controllers should also notify organisations that may be in a position to assist in protecting data subjects including, where relevant, An Garda Síochána, financial institutions etc.

    Dunno folks, I think the best anyone can do is make a complaint to the DPC but backed by the relevant Breach of Practice. Forget about contacting google.


  • #193
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    has anyone here looked up the data protection commission site yet?

    1. We know the data is public. Is there such a thing as 'more' or 'less' public? Google search vs' TC site search is still public. So I think the privacy issue is lost... and believe me, google won't do nothing going on crazy cases I've heard. So lets just assume that ratemyteachers has set the bar and move on, that ain't goinna change.

    2. Look at how the data was 'handled' by the TC... is there a transfer abroad issue maybe? See here.


    3 Maybe the data has been altered in some way! HERE

    I'm still looking through past cases to see how this particular rule has been implemented in the past:

    1.9 What is the position in relation to personal data already in the public domain?

    Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts provides that the Acts do not apply to personal data consisting of information that the person keeping the data is required by law to make available to the public. A key point here is that the exemption from data protection requirements only relates to the information in the hands of those public bodies that are obliged to make it available. Any other entity seeking to use such information once in the public domain must comply with the standard requirements of data protection.

    I do know (first-hand) that the DPC has advised organisations to block content from being indexed by Google, I suspect it is at least partly because of this section of the DP Acts.


  • #194
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Graham wrote: »
    I'm still looking through past cases to see how this particular rule has been implemented in the past:

    1.9 What is the position in relation to personal data already in the public domain?

    Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts provides that the Acts do not apply to personal data consisting of information that the person keeping the data is required by law to make available to the public. A key point here is that the exemption from data protection requirements only relates to the information in the hands of those public bodies that are obliged to make it available. Any other entity seeking to use such information once in the public domain must comply with the standard requirements of data protection.

    Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

    I think the only thing left for the TC to redeem themselves is to put in a truckload of false info to poison the well.


  • #195
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

    I think the only thing left for the TC to redeem themselves is to put in a truckload of false info to poison the well.

    That might be the only option but it's not very reassuring. Unless they add forty nine Beverageladies, all of whom work at different schools, a quick search will still give somebody my work address.


  • #196
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

    I'm not sure where ratemyteachers got its initial data from, do you know if it came from the same source or is the data (specifically the teachers names) contributed by the users?


  • #197
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Graham wrote: »
    I'm not sure where ratemyteachers got its initial data from, do you know if it came from the same source or is the data (specifically the teachers names) contributed by the users?

    It's contributed by the users. Names are regularly misspelled or totally wrong. They often don't know first names. Students names are also often listed as teachers


  • #198
    RealJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    katydid wrote: »
    No, I didn't provide any evidence for it. It's just common sense; as a public servant, working in a capacity where you are interacting with the public on a daily basis, I see no reason not to have one's basic details in relation to one's job listed.
    No, I'm not having that. You don't get to claim that "It's just common sense", especially when you've already asserted that when someone else made a claim that they should have to back it up. You're failing to meet your own standard here. Either back up your claim or state that it is your own (largely valueless) opinion with no basis in law (or common sense for that matter).
    katydid wrote: »
    If your students, their parents etc. have the right to have access to that information, why not future prospective students and their parents? Why not the general public? You are in a job with a public profile - you stand up in front of hundreds of people every day.
    I've already said that prospective students and their parents (probably) are. Let them go into the school and ask.
    As for the general public, explain to me why they should be entitled to this information. If they have no connection with the school, either currently or in the fairly immediate future, what possible reason does Mary McGrath next door have for knowing where I work?
    Also, I am not in a job with a "public profile". I'm in a job where I "stand up in front of" the same "hundreds of people every day" in what is absolutely not a public setting. The school has CCTV. Do you think that should be streaming live online every day too, since you seem to think that the school is a public place which should be accessible to the general public? Maybe I should have a live webcam feed in my classroom too so that the general public can sit in on my lessons, unless it's convenient for them to pop in in person and take part in the classes, since I'm public property after all?
    katydid wrote: »
    If a bunny boiler wants to find you, she will...
    So why should we be making things easier?


  • #199
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »
    It's contributed by the users. Names are regularly misspelled or totally wrong. They often don't know first names. Students names are also often listed as teachers

    Thanks Alaia Gifted Rodeo, that's what I was hoping as it may mean Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts applies for Teacherslookup even if it doesn't apply to ratemy teacher.


  • #200
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    RealJohn wrote: »
    No, I'm not having that. You don't get to claim that "It's just common sense", especially when you've already asserted that when someone else made a claim that they should have to back it up. You're failing to meet your own standard here. Either back up your claim or state that it is your own (largely valueless) opinion with no basis in law (or common sense for that matter).

    I've already said that prospective students and their parents (probably) are. Let them go into the school and ask.
    As for the general public, explain to me why they should be entitled to this information. If they have no connection with the school, either currently or in the fairly immediate future, what possible reason does Mary McGrath next door have for knowing where I work?
    Also, I am not in a job with a "public profile". I'm in a job where I "stand up in front of" the same "hundreds of people every day" in what is absolutely not a public setting. The school has CCTV. Do you think that should be streaming live online every day too, since you seem to think that the school is a public place which should be accessible to the general public? Maybe I should have a live webcam feed in my classroom too so that the general public can sit in on my lessons, unless it's convenient for them to pop in in person and take part in the classes, since I'm public property after all?

    So why should we be making things easier?
    Just because your job isn't streamed live on tv doesn't mean it's not a job with a public profile. The fact that you stand up in front of hundreds of people a day means you are visible and in the public eye. Not to the same degree as, say, a politician, but nevertheless in the public eye. Your name is known, your workplace is known, your gender is known. So establishing these facts from a professional register is hardly a breach of your privacy.

    I don't disagree that the website teacherlookup is unethical; it is not acceptable that a person searching for you can just type in your name and the first - and apparently only - result in some cases is a link to this kind of information. But there is a clear distinction between information being available on the TC website and the same information being available elsewhere.


  • #201
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    beveragelady wrote: »
    That might be the only option but it's not very reassuring. Unless they add forty nine Beverageladies, all of whom work at different schools, a quick search will still give somebody my work address.
    So your problem is not with teacherlookup.com but with the TC. So why are you complaining now, when this information has been in the public domain for the past eight years?


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