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Problems with Direct Debit

123468

Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Its a very sobering thought that the Central Bank may be complicit in the Irish public being mislead (to put it kindly!) in respect of the dd system and the absence of the controls etc that are supposed to be there to protect the public.



    The IPSO board has a broad membership so as to represent fairly, the different types and size of IPSO’s members and other payment stakeholders. The board of directors includes three independent non-executive director positions as well as an independent non-executive chairman. The decision of the Board to appoint a wholly independent chairman demonstrates the board’s commitment to transparency and recognition of the increasing need to involve non-bank interests in IPSO decision making. The Central Bank of Ireland, as regulator of payments systems in Ireland, has been represented at IPSO board meetings since IPSO was established in 1997.

    Surely the Central Bank are failing in their role if they are allowing controls which are required by scheme rules to be conveniently dropped on a "cost effective" basis? Who decides what is cost effective anyway?

    Also surely there are questions to be asked about the independent directors? What exactly are they doing if there are so many failings in the dd scheme?

    One could also legitimately ask who if anyone represents the bill payers interests in all of this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Cushie Butterfield


    It's disheartening that none of the journalists or broadcast media that regularly read boards for material for articles of public interest haven't found this issue newsworthy enough to report on, especially considering how quick they can be to report on other important newsworthy issues e.g a recent front page article in the Metro Herald claiming that ''The Irish web community got its knickers in a knot yesterday after a woman claimed she lost her dole - because she was selling her used knickers to fetishists online.'' A boards.ie thread which contained all of 15 posts.

    Surely, a more mainstream issue such as this, a thread containing 252 posts, considering that it could potentially at any stage affect hundreds of thousands of bank account holders, would be something that any decent journalist (print, tv, radio or internet) would be only delighted to get their teeth into?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    It's disheartening that none of the journalists or broadcast media that regularly read boards for material for articles of public interest haven't found this issue newsworthy enough to report on, especially considering how quick they can be to report on other important newsworthy issues e.g a recent front page article in the Metro Herald claiming that ''The Irish web community got its knickers in a knot yesterday after a woman claimed she lost her dole - because she was selling her used knickers to fetishists online.'' A boards.ie thread which contained all of 15 posts.

    I agree. But the truth is many fold...
    • This is not a sexy story
    • There are very few investigative journalists out there anymore. They are mostly reporters. They just report as many stories as they can, in as little time as they can, to make up their quota for print / TV / Radio.
    • It's cut throat out there. It costs too much for actual investigation work. This story needs investigation. It's not worth their while.

    It has always been my intention, when I'm done here, to document all I've done in the Scheme and hand it to as many Journalists / Reports as I can find. I'll have done most of the investigation, they just need to verify it and report. However, this may bring it to the public eye for ... a day, maybe a few days. Then it will be forgotten about when the next big story hits. I am VERY skeptical, with all I've experienced in this, that anybody in power has the will to change this.

    People don't care about most things until it affects them. I've spoken about this issue to friends over the past year. They fein interest. I'm not sure if it's because they don't believe me, think I'm over reacting or just don't care. It pains me but it is a fact of life. Generally [and it is a sweeping generalisation] people don't care if it doesn't affect them or invoke some form of emotion [selling used knickers anyone???]. It's as simple as that.

    However, as I said, it has always been my intent and that hasn't changed.

    I've also sort of decided to approach one of the power players at #ccven to see if I can be put into contact with someone who is passionate about this sort of thing and who can actively assist. There has to be someone in politics who fits the bill. I'm a proud man. I hate asking for help from anyone. I might make an exception on this occasion.

    Surely, a more mainstream issue such as this, a thread containing 252 posts, considering that it could potentially at any stage affect hundreds of thousands of bank account holders, would be something that any decent journalist (print, tv, radio or internet) would be only delighted to get their teeth into?
    We've also got well over 10,000 thread views so there are a lot of people watching this but staying very quiet. It seems to be the same 5 or 6 people showing their faces here. There are many, many more but are silent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Watchdog on the BBC last week had a little about direct debits just stating how companies say they love them because of control:
    Companies love us to pay by direct debit because they are then in control…What company wouldn’t like that?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00zkz1k/features/payment-methods

    I have friends who dont even check their bills and have no idea how much is going out of their account each month. One friend was on the 15euro meteor plan for a year and after the year was up they didn't notice the plan had increased to 30 a month (all perfectly above board). They were puzzled how meteor hadn't bothered to contact them or put them on another discounted plan. Sure why would they when people dont even notice the change in the monthly bill.

    I suspect there are more people like my friend who dont monitor their bills or bank accounts as much as they should. I remember when I was with O2. At one point I was ringing up every month for almost 6 months to get my bill adjusted due to "errors". Unlike monopoly though, the errors were never in my favour. Funny that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    We've also got well over 10,000 thread views so there are a lot of people watching this but staying very quiet. It seems to be the same 5 or 6 people showing their faces here. There are many, many more but are silent.
    Actually, since mid yesterday to now, we've had over 400 views. We're now up to 11,050.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    My heart goes out to you RangeR, you have had one hell of a rough ride with the lot of them. You would think RTE would have got in touch with you for a prime-time investigates slot in relation to a serious issue like this.

    I'm above shocked after reading this thread in full.
    It's as if the system doesn't want to be found out.

    This is exactly the case without doubt, in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    zenno wrote: »
    I'm above shocked after reading this thread in full.

    This thread isn't even the full story. It started back in January 2012, I believe. This was split from a Three [the mobile network] thread I started about being charged twice in a month. That's how it all started, for me anyway. After it became more about the "System" rather than Three, I requested Dav to split it to it's own thread.

    It was split to Consumer Issues and then to Banking and Insurance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    My intention is to snail mail this to as many journalists and politicians as I can.

    I hope you do this, as you have come so far. Let it not be in vain, as this already public issue could force changes within the system. I would like to think that this would be the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    zenno wrote: »
    could force changes within the system. I would like to think that this would be the case.

    Unfortunately, it won't. Nothing will change in the Scheme. We know that for fact. The Direct Debit Scheme is due to not exist at all in or around February 2014. It is being replaced by SEPA, the EU equivalent.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    Unfortunately, it won't. Nothing will change in the Scheme. We know that for fact. The Direct Debit Scheme is due to not exist at all in or around February 2014. It is being replaced by SEPA, the EU equivalent.


    The only thing that matters now in Ireland in terms of getting anything done is public embarrassment. Once the spotlight looms people suddenly "take their responsibilities very seriously"

    The simple fact is that there is no will on the part of all of those "responsible" for the running of the dd scheme to run it in accordance with the "rules".

    The direct debit "guarantee" is and always has been a lie - read it - it is unenforcable. It's only function is to lull bill payers into a false sense of security.

    The direct debit scheme rules are a lie - there is absolutely no will on the part of the responsible parties to implement them so they are a charade. Key requirements such as a system to detect cancelled direct debits being presented again are not in place.

    There are no systems in place to monitor compliance with the rules of the scheme.

    Companies can do what they like and they do. Bank staff laugh at the "usual suspects" who regularly reinstate cancelled direct debits - in my view an attempt at theft - yet there is no requirement on bank staff to report this activity. And no consequences for companies who do so.

    The only ones who ever suffer for not complying with the scheme are bill payers.
    Miss a direct debit and it can cost you up to €25 (instantly)if you happen to be with UPC. Of course there are no problems on the companies' or banks' part in having a system in place to catch this "non compliance"!!

    Facilitate taking a considerable amount of money from Ranger's account and absolutely nothing happens to those responsible.

    We know that IPSO monitors boards.ie but they haven't the courage to come on here and answer the criticism put forward.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I'm quite literally speechless.
    On 11 June 2013 19:42, Keith Burke <my.email@address.com> wrote:
    FSO Agent,


    Pursuant to your email dated June 6, 2013, I fear you may not be in possession of all the facts. You say that after a full review of all submissions that it would appear that the basis for my complaint relates to my business account.

    This couldn't be further from the truth. This started in January 2012. My business account only got involved in April 2012. I also mentioned similar in my previous email to which you mention.

    This confusion probably stems from the fact that you are the third FSO agent to deal with this complaint.

    I've attached all submissions again.

    Could you also please confirm why there is a need for audited accounts in which to pursue the Bank? I mean, other than to state that those are just the rules. What is the reason for that rule? It seems exceptionally unfair that the Financial Services Ombudsman is willing to dismiss this case of facilitated fraud on a technicality. This is a proven case of fraudulent transaction that went unchecked by the bank.

    EDIT : Actually, I'm so pissed off at the FSO I'm reconsidering getting my Audited Accounts from my accountant and fighting full force. FSO probably won't let me, know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    RangeR wrote: »
    I'm quite literally speechless.



    EDIT : Actually, I'm so pissed off at the FSO I'm reconsidering getting my Audited Accounts from my accountant and fighting full force. FSO probably won't let me, know.

    Are you a sole trader or limited company?

    Can a sole trader produced "audited" accounts? I thought certified accounts would be more appropriate.

    Somebody else from an accountancy background might be able to clarify


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    Are you a sole trader or limited company?

    Can a sole trader produced "audited" accounts? I thought certified accounts would be more appropriate.

    Somebody else from an accountancy background might be able to clarify

    Limited Company, albeit a very small 2 person limited company. However, a month ago, I lost the will to fight this. I'm starting to get that will back. Going to ring my accountant this week and get the audited document. and send to FSO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    RangeR wrote: »
    Limited Company, albeit a very small 2 person limited company. However, a month ago, I lost the will to fight this. I'm starting to get that will back. Going to ring my accountant this week and get the audited document. and send to FSO.

    It's worth one last effort as you've put so much into it now. Still there for moral support!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    On 14 June 2013 16:01, Keith Burke wrote:
    FSO Rep,

    Thank you for your update. I note that there is no answer to why the audited accounts are required. To this end, I tore my house apart and found them. Please find attached audit accounts for 2011. I hope you take this into account and pursue all complaints against Bank of Ireland Group.





    Keith Burke
    --


    On 13 June 2013 14:58, Desmond Butler <fsorep@financialombudsman.ie> wrote:
    Dear Keith,

    Thank you for your mail.

    Please note that further information has been requested from the Bank.

    We will be in contact in due course.

    Regards,
    FSO Rep.
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,567 ✭✭✭delta_bravo


    dub45 wrote: »
    Given you were the victim in this why do they require audited accounts?

    Just after reading this epic thread I can only feel sympathy for you RangeR. The only reason I think they might be looking for accounts is to see if your complaint is valid. I work in a similar sector and from doing a bit of study into the FSO you generally need to be a person or company with a turnover of less than 2 million to be covered within some of the powers of the FSO. Thats the only thing I can think why they want your turnover statements. At the very least your story will definitely show people the merits of keeping a close eye on their accounts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Just after reading this epic thread I can only feel sympathy for you RangeR. The only reason I think they might be looking for accounts is to see if your complaint is valid. I work in a similar sector and from doing a bit of study into the FSO you generally need to be a person or company with a turnover of less than 2 million to be covered within some of the powers of the FSO. Thats the only thing I can think why they want your turnover statements. At the very least your story will definitely show people the merits of keeping a close eye on their accounts.

    I gave them a P&L. That should suffice. IF that is the reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    On 24 June 2013 16:32, FSO Agent <fso.agent@financialombudsman.ie> wrote:
    Hi Keith,

    I will have a formal letter out to you tomorrow.

    Regards,
    FSO Agent.

    From: Keith Burke [mailto:ranger.email.address]
    Sent: 14 June 2013 16:01
    To: FSO Agent
    Subject: Re: Ref : 12/69845

    FSO Agent,

    Thank you for your update. I note that there is no answer to why the audited accounts are required. To this end, I tore my house apart and found them. Please find attached audit accounts for 2011. I hope you take this into account and pursue all complaints against Bank of Ireland Group.





    Keith Burke
    --
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Was dreading this email back from FSO but ... Happy days. Full steam ahead on all complaints.
    On 26 June 2013 16:00, Keith Burke <email.address.of.the.RangeR@gmail.com> wrote:
    FSO Agent,

    Brilliant and thank you for your help so far.





    Keith Burke
    --

    On 26 June 2013 15:53, FSO Agent <fso.agent@financialombudsman.ie> wrote:
    Dear Mr Burke,

    Please see attached document(s) in relation to the above complaint.

    If you are unable to open the PDF file format, you can download Adobe Reader from the link below.
    http://get.adobe.com/uk/reader/


    Kind regards

    FSO Agent
    Case Officer

    Financial Services Ombudsman's Bureau
    3rd Floor
    Lincoln House
    Lincoln Place
    Dublin 2


    Main Phone: +353 (1) 6620899
    26 June 2013
    Please quote the reference below in all correspondence to this office and refrain from using staples as all documents received are scanned.

    Re: Your dispute with Bank of Ireland Reference number: 12/69845


    Dear Mr Burke

    Thank you for your recent correspondence.

    I note that it is now your intention for the Bureau to investigate both of your accounts, business and personal.

    In light of same, please note that clarification has been sought from the Bank. We will be in contact in due course.


    Yours sincerely


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Looking good now. At least they're proceeding with the investigation.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Congrats and well done for keepin' on keepin' on:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭zynaps


    I did a double-take when I read that.... they're actually doing it? Thank jaysus something's starting to move!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Second "Final Response" letter from BOI. This time for my business account. It's not worded as derisively as the first one but it's substantively the same. I'm sure that this is just a formality. I won't be responding to it. I'll be telling FSO that I reject that as a response. Not quite sure how I'll phrase it. Might wait a few days and compose myself. Ideas welcome.

    Page 1
    Page 2
    Page 3


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    It's (sadly) funny how they trust the company making the unauthorised direct debit but they dont trust the customer (who might be a little forgetful!!! groan) who says it's an unauthorised one until they've undertaken a full investigation. Go figure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭Baked.noodle


    RangeR,

    Just want to say fair play to you. I will not use Direct Debit until this issue is addressed.


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    It really makes grim reading even for one as cynical as myself about the direct debit system.

    Just some random musings:

    From the IPSO website:
    The Irish Retail Electronic Payments Clearing Company (IRECC) Ltd. manages a sound and trust worthy Direct Debit Scheme, in association with its members, who are the sponsoring banks in the Scheme. We strive to offer the best possible service in order to deliver a high level of trust and confidence to you, the payer.

    A high level of trust and confidence? Quite honestly in the light of the information outlined in this thread and many other postings here how could anyone even semi-sane have trust and confidence either in the scheme or anyone institution associated with it in any way? It really is hard not to find that paragraph offensive to bank customers and bill payers.

    Was anything as ever so wrongly named as direct debit "plus"?

    How can the auditors of the banks (or whoever the appropriate people are internally) allow them to run a system which allows money to be taken from customers accounts without the banks holding any authority from the customer for such deductions? (as we all know it can be difficult enough to get money from your own account yet others can do it with no problems)

    How can the banks "delegate" checks which are undeniably their responsibility to business over which they have no control whatsoever? And it is perfect reasonable to assume that nobody checks to see if the businesses are carrying out any checks - who is there to do such checks?

    One of the major banks describes the total lack of knowledge of the dd system (a system which which must impact on a huge percentage of their customers) as regrettable!!!

    The very people who you would contact on finding your bank account emptied (imagine being on holiday and finding all your funds gone) the front line people have no authority to make a refund??????

    The entire thrust of that letter is that it doesn't matter really what goes on as under the so called dd guarantee you will get your money back (eventually!)

    So an account can be ravaged with no consequences for anyone except the owner of the account. Imagine being on holiday and finding 800 euros plus gone and maybe not being able to pay your way home or not having money for food. Or perhaps cheques you had issued bouncing. The onus is on the account holder to prove the account has been wrongly debited...

    The banks seem to have lost all sense of their responsibilities to protect the integrity of customers' accounts.

    Initially it seemed that the dd plus non system was a sort of subset of the main scheme but as far as I can see it has now become the default scheme for the companies - nobody as far as I am aware is told when they are signing up for the dd scheme that they are being put on the dd+ plus scheme.

    Also the default notice under the dd scheme is 14 days and this cannot be varied without the consent of the bill payer. The default under the dd + scheme is 7 days which is a joke. How can this conflict be reconciled?

    Originators must give advance notice of the date and the amount of each direct debit. The advance notice period is generally fourteen days, or in some cases seven days or less if agreed by all parties, before the direct debit is applied

    Also this is an excerpt from the dd scheme rules and does not appear to allow any deviation for dd+

    Paying Banks:
    o must adhere to the Rules of the Scheme
    o must put in place processes which will ensure that unauthorised, refused and/or cancelled
    Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation


    Where are these processes? Who is supposed to make sure they are in place?

    Here is another very interesting obligation on the originator:
    Where no signed DDI is in place, then within 3 days of the
    agreement at 3 above, the Originator issues a written Direct
    Debit confirmation to the Payer.

    How many originators comply with this important step?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I have only just found this thread again after it was m moved from three.I an so impressed with the progress made.
    anyone working in Billing or cc will they'll you the issues with dd can be unbelievable.

    you'd think the central bank would be trying to reclaim their good name! But no they are once again proceed not fit for purpose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Ok, As I thought, the second Final Response letter was just a formality. I didn't even have to contact FSO to reject it. eMail from FSO today acknowledging [more or less] my refusal of the Final Response :) They've also split out my two complaints. The personal account complaint is the initial reference. The business complaint now has a new reference.
    Dear Mr Burke

    Please note that the above complaint reference number relates to conduct complained of relevant to the account of <REDACTED> only.

    Conduct relevant to your personal account is to be examined under complaint reference number 12/69845.

    I note that the complaint has not been resolved, even after the matter was referred to the internal complaints procedure of the Provider and the Provider issued its Final Response. Before it is decided to investigate the complaint in detail I now wish to invite you to consider mediation of this dispute.

    Mediation is an informal process, whereby a mediator in this office would be assigned to engage with the parties to try to facilitate an agreed settlement of the complaint. Mediation is independent of the adjudication process, confidential and without prejudice. The Mediator is provided by this office, free of any charge to the parties and nothing is binding unless both parties agree to the outcome (Mediation Guidelines are attached for your information).

    Participation in the mediation by the parties to a complaint is entirely voluntary and to enable mediation to proceed, both parties must be willing to engage in the process. I should state that any costs for travel, professional fees, etc incurred by you in the mediation process cannot be borne by this office.

    I would therefore be grateful if you would reply in writing or by email within ten days indicating whether or not you wish to participate in such mediation. If I do not hear from you by that time, then the matter will be referred to investigation. At this stage, I would be obliged if you would also submit all relevant documentation not previously submitted in support of your complaint.
    Emphasis theirs.

    Financial Services Ombudsman’s Bureau Mediation Guidelines

    1. Where appropriate, Mediation is an alternative method of trying to resolve complaints.

    2. It is a process where the parties to the complaint try to reach a solution through agreement with the assistance and support of a mediator rather than through an immediate investigation of the complaint and a decision from this Office on the complaint.

    3. If a mediation is to take place, BOTH parties to the complaint must be willing and elect to participate in mediation. If one party wants to mediate the complaint and the other party does not, then no mediation will take place and the matter will proceed to investigation and adjudication.

    4. Mediation is an option that is available to both parties. It is a voluntary stage in the handling of a complaint by this Office. Parties to a complaint are not obliged to partake in mediation if they do not wish to.

    5. If BOTH parties decide to attempt mediation, the complaint will be assigned to a mediation officer (the “Mediator”) whose participation is free of any charge.

    6. The Mediator will then contact both parties to schedule the mediation.

    7. Generally speaking, mediation typically involves meeting(s) between the Mediator and both parties. The venue for any mediation meeting will be decided by the Mediator and the date and time of any meetings will be decided by the Mediator, having consulted with both parties.

    8. Mediation is an informal process. It is also confidential and is conducted in private.

    9. The Mediator’s role is to try to facilitate an agreed resolution of the complaint between the parties. The Mediator is not a decision-maker (unlike a Judge).

    10. The Mediator is independent. He/she does not act for (or side with) either party to the dispute. His/her role is to independently assist both parties in reaching an agreed resolution of their differences.

    11. Participation in a mediation by the parties to a complaint is voluntary and a party may withdraw from the mediation at any time.

    12. If either party chooses not to engage in mediation, then the complaint will be dealt with by the Office by way of investigation and adjudication.

    13. If both parties agree to mediation, but during the course of a mediation, either or both of the parties withdraw from a mediation or if the Mediator forms the view that the attempt is not likely to succeed or if the attempt to resolve the complaint by mediation is unsuccessful, then the mediation will come to an end. Both parties will be informed by the Mediator that the mediation is at an end and the complaint will then be subject to investigation and adjudication by this Office.

    14. If, during the course of a mediation, the parties reach an agreement to resolve the complaint and both parties agree the resolution/outcome, then that agreement will be recorded in writing, signed by both parties and will become legally binding on the parties. The complaint will be at an end and so it will not be referred to investigation and adjudication (final decision) by this Office.

    15. It should be remembered that in a mediation, a party cannot be forced to accept a settlement/outcome. The Mediator will not impose a decision on the parties. Both parties must voluntarily agree the outcome.

    16. The Mediator has no authority to settle the dispute himself/herself or to act on either party’s behalf.

    17. Evidence of anything said or admitted during a mediation (or an attempted mediation) and any document prepared for the purposes of the mediation, are not admissible in any subsequent investigation of the complaint or in any proceedings before a Court. If however during the mediation an agreement is reached between the parties, that agreement will be recorded in writing, signed by both parties and will then be legally binding.

    18. It is not possible to advise how long a mediation might last. It will depend on a number of factors, including the attitude of the parties involved in the mediation and the progress (if any) being made at a mediation.

    19. Any costs or expenses incurred by either party to a complaint by participating in the mediation process will not be paid for by the Mediator or this Office. Any such costs/expenses are a matter for the party who incurs the costs/expenses to bear himself/herself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    And seconds later, an eMail requesting Mediation on my personal account. Not going to post it here as it's substantially the same.

    I replied to both emails separately
    Thank you for your email. I am willing to enter into the Mediation process relating to the complain on my <insert bank type here> bank account

    eMail was acknowledged to say they would be in touch in due course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Good luck. Will be interesting to hear how it goes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    Good luck. Will be interesting to hear how it goes.

    Yeah, me too. Bit nervous now, actually:)

    When [IF] mediation comes around, IF BOI have more than one person at the table, I'm going to ask for a "Phone a friend" or can I bring someone too. Who wants to come? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Count me in if you like. To be honest the balls in their court to explain things.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Happy to go along too:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Any updates?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    None at all. As per last update, Mediation process has started. I don't know if the Bank agreed to this process or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Two Snail Mail letters from FSO yesterday. Both identical except one was for personal account adn the other for business account.

    BOI poo poo'd mediation. This was expected but upsetting. They were never going to facilitate publicising the huge gaping holes in Direct Debit Scheme.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Apologies. Messed up the sharing option again. Should be viewable now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Working now. At least it's not a total dead end. They'll investigate and report back soon enough. Will be interesting to see the results.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Great thread, and fair play to you for pursuing this. I expect I would have let it go as soon as they refunded the money. I'm interested to see where this goes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Financial services ombudsman says banks are not doing enough when complaints are made to them. Most complaints now about MARP and Direct Debits. He was speaking on Morning Ireland today and said that they were too slow to act on complaints and they appear completely undermanned in their complaints department.
    Mr Prasifka said there was a need for banks, in particular, to resolve more cases before ending up with his office. There has been a massive increase in complaints about bank accounts, involving direct debits not being paid or money going to the wrong accounts.

    New powers are due to be granted to the ombudsman from September that will allow him to name and shame the worst banks and insurance companies when it comes to dealing with complaints. A league table listing the worst offenders is likely to be issued by next February, Mr Prasifka said.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/banks-not-listening-to-customers-ombudsman-29515189.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    A league table listing the worst offenders is likely to be issued by next February, Mr Prasifka said.

    A league table? How many financial institutions do we have?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    When you include the insurance providers, quite a few.

    My refuse collection uses direct debit plus and when I refused to sing up to it the company admitted that more and more people refuse to and the lady had to provide sort code and account so the customer can set up a standing order.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    My refuse collection uses direct debit plus and when I refused to sing up to it the company admitted that more and more people refuse to and the lady had to provide sort code and account so the customer can set up a standing order.

    If you refuse DD+, would they not then offer standard vanilla DD?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    RangeR wrote: »
    If you refuse DD+, would they not then offer standard vanilla DD?

    I totally take that back and can't believe I even suggested it. I'll take the slaps like a man. And cry like a woman.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I also refused that then I said I'd move providers.

    This company raised prices by 25 percent Christmas week last year and did not in any way tell any one.

    When I called to complain they offered to return to the old price for 6 months, but for any one who didn't notice, they got nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    And now it's official
    Finance Minister Michael Noonan has given the Financial Services Ombudsman the power to ''name and shame'' financial service providers who have at least three complaints against them substantiated.

    The Minister said he had today signed a Statutory Instrument commencing section 72 of the Central Bank (Supervision and Enforcement) Act 2013.
    Mr Noonan said that this additional provision will mean that financial service providers who are failing their customers will be publicly identified and incentivised to make real improvements.

    The section will come into effect on September 1.

    The Financial Services Ombudsman, Bill Prasifka, has made repeated calls for the power to name and shame financial service providers.
    In the past he had said that naming banks that are the subject of complaints to his office would create a "virtuous competition" in the institutions' behaviour towards customers.

    He said making the complaints record of individual banks public would influence how they behave.

    Mr Prasifka said the measure would be in the public interest, could be done at no cost to the exchequer, and should have been introduced a long time ago.

    In a statement today, Mr Noonan said he understands that the Ombudsman intends to publish his first report with the names of those offending financial services providers early next year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Will there be any institution, without a complaint against it lodged to the ombudsman?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Pablo Sanchez


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Will there be any institution, without a complaint against it lodged to the ombudsman?

    I think they can only name institutions who have had at least 3 complaints upheld against them. That said, in their recent report, the Ombudsman's office confirmed that they only fully uphold 8% of complaints made against the institutions they oversee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Snail Mail in

    Page 1 Redacted
    Page 2
    Page 3 Redacted

    In short, FSO have advised that formally initiated the complaint to BOI. BOI have 20 business days to reply. I will then have right to reply to their reply.......


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    Looks great! As always, fair play for sticking with this.


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