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What do you think of Dublin Bus?

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24

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    #32
    lounakin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 699 ✭✭✭lounakin


    bk wrote: »
    No it isn't it is quiet normal for most transport systems around the world and considered best practice. Most cyclists are just as fast and in many cases a good bit faster then most buses on city streets, so really not an issue.

    Where else does this happen? I haven't seen that in cities with proper bike lanes like Paris for instance.... They shouldn't be sharing a lane because they can't both fit on it considering you need to leave at least 50 cm between the bus and the cyclist. It's not about going slow or fast but buses need to make their stops and cyclists shouldn't have to go into the traffic to overtake them, nor should they have to stop every time.

    edit: what I mean is not that the lanes are occasionally shared but that in Dublin city centre they are almost always shared.


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    #33
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    lounakin wrote: »
    It's not about going slow or fast but buses need to make their stops and cyclists shouldn't have to go into the traffic to overtake them, nor should they have to stop every time.

    Happens everywhere. London if you want a specific example. Why can't buses and bikes share lanes, sure cars and bikes and trucks and buses share lanes everywhere anyway!


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    #34
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lounakin, you must not be a regular cyclist. Cyclists don't really like cycle lanes unless they are really good, high quality ones like in Amsterdam or Copenhagen.

    Generally cycle lanes are terrible here and cyclists much prefer to be on the road which is well maintained, plenty of space and has priority, rather then some crappy small, narrow, badly maintained cycle lane that has zero priority.

    Bus lanes are great for cyclists as you get all the benefits of a proper road, with much less traffic in it.

    A lot of people who aren't cyclists seem to think cyclists like cycle lanes. The reality is most cycle lanes are terrible and most cyclists hate them.


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    #35
    lounakin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 699 ✭✭✭lounakin


    Bk, I was a cyclist but it just go too scary for me. I totally agree with you that in Dublin, cycle lanes are terrible... you are illustrating my point for me! They are terrible because you can't use them. Taxis are parked, buses are stopped, delivery vans hang around, people are just standing there etc...
    Dublin either needs better cycling lanes or it the gardai have to come down harder on people who don't observe the rules of the road.
    I've been here 12 or 13 years and I have seen Dublin change radically since then. 10 years ago, people would always stop at lights, there was less jay-walking, cars would let pedestrians cross the road etc. Now, people run red lights all the time (in most countries that's the highest offence of the kind!) and stop signs (like the one that gives onto Mary Street, I know it's mostly pedestrian but the sign is there and no one observes it), people randomly run into the street regardless of the traffic, and in places where pedestrians have priority to cross (example: where Capel and Parnell cross) you'd be lucky if one out of 20 cars is willing to take a few seconds out of their day to let you do so! Every morning I had the same issue, standing there waiting for a nice driver to stop, and it's nearly always truck drivers who end up stopping.


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    #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No what Dublin needs to do is a complete re-think. They need to follow the Amsterdam/Copenhagen model that sets cycling and walking as the primary means of transport in the city, public transport as second and cars/taxis as a very distant third.

    Everything they do is to deigned to make walking and cycling safe and easy. That definitely isn't the case in Ireland and it won't change until the way that city councils get financed changes. At the moment city councils make a great deal of their income from car parking. While this situation continues, cars will continue to dominate our city streets an pedestrians and cyclists will continue to be a second thought.


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    #37
    lounakin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 699 ✭✭✭lounakin


    Amen to tha BK! Dublin would be ideal for such a model and it truly would be heaven and not just at 11!


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    #38
    starviewadams
    Registered Users Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    Overall I think Dublin Bus is fairly good,the route that I use most frequently,the 13,after a shaky start with bad timetabling,has become much more reliable over the last few months.The 69's timetable has also improved too,as has the 76 which I both use a few times a month.

    The real time app is usually accurate to a minute or two which is very handy,and while the Leap card isn't ideal,it still saves me 50c a day on my journey into town compared to cash.

    The only problem that annoys me is how early the sevice finishes at.Last bus home from town to Clondalkin is at around 11.30pm which is far too early,I reckon normal service should run until at least 12.30/1am on weeknights.

    The new 69N nitelink route also doesn't serve anywhere near Newlands Cross or my estate which it used to do,which means that I have to stay on from City Centre all the way up to Saggart and get off at Newlands Cross when the bus is returning to the City.But sometimes the drivers won't even let me do that.


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    #39
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    I'd very much agree that the service finishes far too early. It also is not quite as consistent in finishing time. Some final departures are at 2300, 2315, 2330, 2320, 2325 and some final departures at 2330 during the week turn into 2325 at weekends.

    As a heavy bus user and enthusiast..I find Dublin Bus an excellent service. I don't get the demand for cross city services from a passenger perspective. Anytime I've been on a 13, 15, 27, 14, 40 or likewise, there are very few people on board that have boarded on the old route. I get it from the company perspective, but I don't see the passenger demand for it.


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    #40
    carlmango11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    bk wrote: »
    No what Dublin needs to do is a complete re-think. They need to follow the Amsterdam/Copenhagen model that sets cycling and walking as the primary means of transport in the city, public transport as second and cars/taxis as a very distant third.

    Everything they do is to deigned to make walking and cycling safe and easy. That definitely isn't the case in Ireland and it won't change until the way that city councils get financed changes. At the moment city councils make a great deal of their income from car parking. While this situation continues, cars will continue to dominate our city streets an pedestrians and cyclists will continue to be a second thought.

    We mustn't forget that Dublin is very hilly and very windy which, mixed with rain, puts a lot of people off cycling (not sure how these compare to other European cities). Also trips to/from the suburbs can be quite long due to the relative low density of Dublin so walking might not be viable for a lot.


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    #41
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    carlmango11 wrote: »
    We mustn't forget that Dublin is very hilly and very windy which, mixed with rain, puts a lot of people off cycling (not sure how these compare to other European cities). Also trips to/from the suburbs can be quite long due to the relative low density of Dublin so walking might not be viable for a lot.

    Well we must forget these things because non of them are true!!!

    Take Amsterdam, where 60% of people cycle every week.

    1) Amsterdam gets more rain then Dublin, 32.1 inches per year versus 28.9 inches.

    2) Dublin isn't hilly at all, What are you talking about?

    3) The population density of Dublin (4,588/km2) is much higher then Amsterdam (3,506/km2).

    So as you see these excuses are complete nonsense.


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    #42
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    carlmango11 wrote: »
    We mustn't forget that Dublin is very hilly and very windy which, mixed with rain, puts a lot of people off cycling

    :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

    what a load of ****e


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    #43
    carlmango11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    Well on my cycle from the city centre out into the suburbs the road has a few points where it climbs *fairly* steeply for stretches; maybe it's not masively hilly but most commutes are far from flat. I've lived in France and cycling was so much more pleasant because the city I was in didn't have this problem.

    Yeah sure Dublin might get less actual rainfall, it gets less than a lot of cities but mixed with strong wind makes for crappy unpleasant weather. In a lot of other places it will rain heavily but not very often which is why rainfall statistics can be misleading. I think we can all accept that Irish/British weather is sh!tty which I think definitely contributes to people favouring cars over bikes.

    I have an Italian friend who visited Ireland and said the weather "destroyed him". He lives in the Alps...


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    #44
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    bk wrote: »
    2) Dublin isn't hilly at all, What are you talking about?

    Eh.. off the top of my head the city centre to the airport, Goatstown road outbound and Ballymun road outbound (Mobhi to Collins) are all very tough cycles. I'm not saying all of Dublin is hilly but likewise you can't say it's not hill at all - that's just plain wrong.


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    #45
    Persiancowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭Persiancowboy


    As a cyclist in Dublin for over 30 years I generally find Dublin bus drivers to be ok. You will always meet the few that either don't see you or don't don't give a sh*t about you but generally they are ok.

    As regards DB itself, as someone who has been using the No. 15 route since 1991 I have to say that I am not a fan of the recent changes made. It is now practically impossible to get on a 15 during the evening peak unless you are at the stops at Trinity (or before). Anything after that and forget it. The withdrawal of the 15b from Terenure/Templeogue and the ending of the 74 route has left the 15 as the only service for these areas as well as for Knocklyon/Ballycullen. Result is packed and infrequent buses especially at peak times.

    Same applies in the morning but as I live near the terminus I can always get a seat inbound...by the time the bus hits Knocklyon road/Firhouse road it is often full and people are left to wait for the next one.

    I feel DB have always struggled to meet peak time demand and it is most times left to the discetion of individual drivers as to whether a bus will stop to pick people up or not once a few are standing on the lower level.

    Allied to this DB also introduced hefty price increases at the start of the year. While the front-line staff (drivers) are generally very professional I can't say the same for the clowns charged with running the company. Packing people onto buses and expecting them to stand (having paid often over €2 a journey) is just not good enough.

    I wonder how many of DB management actually use the bus network for commuting purposes? I would acknowledge the recent improvements with Leap (which I use and it's great) and the real-time info (which although not always accurate) is generally a reliable indicator of schedules.


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    #46
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Persiancowboy wrote: »
    I feel DB have always struggled to meet peak time demand and it is most times left to the discetion of individual drivers as to whether a bus will stop to pick people up or not once a few are standing on the lower level.

    Very true. N11 QBC is a joke in this respect, there were 23 people waiting on one of the stops earlier this week and it's not unusual at all to see 4-5 buses pass you by before one even stops - to take four or so people on board.
    I only need to take the bus into town once a week and can cycle for the remainder. I pity those who endure this service every working day and pay through the nose for the privilege.


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    #47
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    carlmango11 wrote: »
    We mustn't forget that Dublin is very hilly and very windy which, mixed with rain, puts a lot of people off cycling (not sure how these compare to other European cities). Also trips to/from the suburbs can be quite long due to the relative low density of Dublin so walking might not be viable for a lot.

    Dublin is fairly wet, but not very different to cities in the Netherlands and Denmark, where cycling is huge. Also, Dublin is not hilly, with the exception of the small hill around Christchurch, it's practically flat as a pancake.


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    #48
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    carlmango11 wrote: »
    Yeah sure Dublin might get less actual rainfall, it gets less than a lot of cities but mixed with strong wind makes for crappy unpleasant weather. In a lot of other places it will rain heavily but not very often which is why rainfall statistics can be misleading. I think we can all accept that Irish/British weather is sh!tty which I think definitely contributes to people favouring cars over bikes.

    No different then any of the Scandinavian countries who tend to have much colder weather, more rain and the same winds, yet have very high levels of cycling.

    It really is a very sad excuse and it is very typical of Irish people "sure that mad cycling stuff will never work here, sure look at all the rain here in Ireland". Where the truth is actually very different.

    I thought we had finally dis-proven that sort of thinking with the Dublin bikes scheme ("will never work, they will all end up in the river").

    In my experience of cycling every day, while it may often be overcast, it rarely actually rains. And sure you can always take the bus if it does.

    As for Dublin being hilly, as a Corkonian I find that hilarious, Dubliners clearly have no idea what a hill is :D

    There are really no hills in Dublin, there is a slight gradient incline as you head North of the city, but it is a very slight incline, certainly no hill and it can easily be taken with a normal cadence and a lower gear, absolutely nothing to stress about, you shouldn't even need to get out of your seat.

    As for Dublin being spread out, it really isn't, I frequently cycle to and from Dun Laoghaire, most people would consider that far out, but it only takes me 30 minutes at a pretty slow 20km/h. Yet even at that I still beat the DART in :D Most people in Dublin really don't live very far out.

    If Amsterdam and Copenhagen can have very high levels of cycling there is absolutely no reason why Dublin can't do. There is absolutely no difference in terms of weather, topography or population density, in fact Dublin is more attractive on all counts. Instead we just need a change in mindset. We need to forget about these tired excuses and get on our bikes. Your type of thinking is exactly the old tired Irish thinking that needs to be changed.


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    #49
    Vahevala
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Vahevala


    Not everyone feels safe on the roads or not everyone is as fit as you may be and would rather get public transport or drive. For me, I would not be happy cycling or feel comfortable cycling a large distance, each to their own.

    Are you for real:

    Most people in Dublin really don't live very far out.

    Maybe not to you but I can vouch that I live a huge distance from where I work. How did you come up with the statement above??


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    #50
    carlmango11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    bk wrote: »
    No different then any of the Scandinavian countries who tend to have much colder weather, more rain and the same winds, yet have very high levels of cycling.

    Well if that's the case then maybe it is an attitude thing. I also had the impression that Irish weather was particularly bad but I've never been to any Scandinavian countries.
    bk wrote: »
    I thought we had finally dis-proven that sort of thinking with the Dublin bikes scheme ("will never work, they will all end up in the river").

    That's unrelated. That was an attitude regarding theft and vandalism.
    bk wrote: »
    If Amsterdam and Copenhagen can have very high levels of cycling there is absolutely no reason why Dublin can't do. There is absolutely no difference in terms of weather, topography or population density, in fact Dublin is more attractive on all counts. Instead we just need a change in mindset. We need to forget about these tired excuses and get on our bikes. Your type of thinking is exactly the old tired Irish thinking that needs to be changed.

    Hmm I don't know why but I still can't see most people ditching the bus/train/car to cycle even if it is faster. Maybe it is just an attitude issue. Even in my office people were talking about cycling but most didn't want to because they could arrive to working sweating or soaked.


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    #51
    Stripey Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭Stripey Cat


    In a city where it rains pretty much every day, it seems odd that bus stops don't all have some sort of rain shelter built in.

    Perhaps they could sling some material between the stop and the real-time display for us to shelter under?


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    #52
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Vahevala wrote: »
    Not everyone feels safe on the roads or not everyone is as fit as you may be and would rather get public transport or drive. For me, I would not be happy cycling or feel comfortable cycling a large distance, each to their own.

    Cycling at 20km/h is a very average cycling speed, even an unfit person can do that pretty easily. Dun Laoghaire is about 15km out from the city center, yet that is only 40 minutes at a pretty slow cycling pace.
    Vahevala wrote: »
    Are you for real:

    Most people in Dublin really don't live very far out.

    Maybe not to you but I can vouch that I live a huge distance from where I work. How did you come up with the statement above??

    Statistics. 500,000 people live In Dublin City, a place that is only 44 square miles.

    Yes of course some people (like you) live way out and of course cycling all the way in isn't practical for them. However those further out could take public transport in and then cycle from there.

    Amsterdam is an example of this, ever been to Amsterdam train station, there are literally tens of thousands of bike stands there. All used everyday by people who commute in by train and then complete their journey by bike:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFPVZIgqYsU

    Again I repeat some actual facts, Amsterdam is significantly less dense Dublin and is just as spread out as Dublin, yet some how 60% of people manage to commute to work by bike.
    carlmango11 wrote: »
    Well if that's the case then maybe it is an attitude thing. I also had the impression that Irish weather was particularly bad but I've never been to any Scandinavian countries.

    ...

    Hmm I don't know why but I still can't see most people ditching the bus/train/car to cycle even if it is faster. Maybe it is just an attitude issue. Even in my office people were talking about cycling but most didn't want to because they could arrive to working sweating or soaked.

    It is an attitude thing. We are seeing exactly this attitude here, so far the excuses we have seen here are:

    - It rains a lot here
    - It is hilly here
    - It is too far, Dublin is too spread out
    - Cycling causes you to be sweetie

    Yet after factual analysis we find that all these things are BS. That all are the same or worse in Amsterdam yet 60% of people manage to cycle to work everyday.

    I gave Dublin Bikes as a similar example, before it started people said no way it would be successful, they said the streets of Dublin are too dangerous, it rains too much, people don't like cycling and that the bikes would be stolen and vandalised.

    They were wrong, it turned out to be a massive success, the most successful scheme of it's type in Europe. Few bikes were vandalised or stolen and the so called dangerous roads and awful weather didn't stop people using them in record numbers.

    I believe if we were to see a comprehensive change in attitude from the city council and to go all out to promote cycling, walking and public transport as much as the Dutch and Danes do, we could see just as many people cycling in Dublin as Amseterdam and Copenhagen. Dublin is perfectly suited to it.


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    #53
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Leap Card + Real Time information are the responsibility of the NTA rather than any innovative development by Dublin Bus so I wouldn't give them a huge amount of credit for those, as they were not the driving force behind much of it apart from the fare regimes on leap card.

    The Dublin Bus Fleet is generally pretty young and in good condition although the specification of such vehicles at present is below par from most European cities. Stops are tied too close together compared to other cities which is a big problem, you could shave quite a bit of time off some routes with better planning, for example some routes stop six times between Stephen's Green and Parnell Square - nonsense.

    Cross city buses have worked in some cases for some people, but for others they have had a worse service so it's swings and roundabouts on that one depending on where you live really. Late buses and nitelink buses, with restricted pick ups and one direction only and the limited services offered are poor. Drivers are generally helpful in the most part but some routes do have problems with driver attitude whilst others the guys are true gents.

    Single fares, despite their recent hike are still pretty good value compared to most European cities and the UK. However the daily and yearly tickets are very poor value and are much more expensive. Weekly and Monthly tickets are average value because they can be used on non consecutive days and the Travel 90 ticket is good value as is leap depending on your journey patterns.


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    #54
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    Leap Card + Real Time information are the responsibility of the NTA rather than any innovative development by Dublin Bus so I wouldn't give them a huge amount of credit for those, as they were not the driving force behind much of it apart from the fare regimes on leap card.

    Eh the RTPI is based on the AVLC system that was developed by Dublin Bus. The predictive times come from schedules developed by Dublin Bus.

    Sure, Dublin Bus had nothing to do with any of it.

    The NTA are responsible for the on street displays - the system itself is a DB initiative.


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    #55
    Milan Cobian
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Milan Cobian


    In a city where it rains pretty much every day,

    On the east coast it rains on average 150 days per year, according to Met Eireann. Stick to the facts, it makes for a stronger argument.


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    #56
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    I find that the idea of cycling puts me off cycling:D

    But back to DB....

    On the security issue, I find DB considerably safer than is their reputation. I don't think there's a lot to be bothered by the top deck of the 40 or 27 that gets mentioned frequently.

    I find journeys populated by an army of schoolchildren or busload of students the most intrusive, people who should know better i.e. the 10/46A/13/145. I was on AV321 from the Silver Tassie all the way in and they drove me mad. I was on AX520 from DCU inbound and my eardrums were shattered into millions of pieces. That's not to say a fault of DB, just I find them more annoying top deck customers..

    I would also say that one particular garage in the past two weeks has been on a go slow with their buses. Over different routes, different drivers at quiet times of the day and over different days, all coasting along. There are also some Ringsend buses that need to be cleaned upstairs..*cough* AV1, AV207 *cough* and a new display for dim AV205.


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    #57
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    The National Transport Authority is responsible for the Real Time Passenger Information service.

    The RTPI service is delivered in co-operation with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, which is responsible for the roll out of the automatic vehicle location system and the real time arrival predictions for its buses. Dublin City Council provided technical expertise, managed the procurement of the signs and software system, and it is also co-ordinating the installation of the signs in the Greater Dublin Area.

    National Transport Authority would like to acknowledge Dublin City Council, who has taken on the project, as part of its commitment to existing and new public transport users.

    From the news release when the service launched. Dublin City Council on contract to the NTA do indeed manage the signs. But the whole software system that underpins the service centrally also comes under their remit and has no association with Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann whatsoever because the same system is used to power Bus Eireann services and shortly private operators.

    Dublin Bus, as outlined above are responsible for the predictions and of course also of the on vehicle equipment. But the actual backend of the system is provided by Dublin City council and anyone suggesting otherwise is doing so for inpure reasons.


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    #58
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I have no time for cyclists in this city, if they want to be given better facilities, then how about they start learning the rules of the road first, such as what a traffic light is and what the various lights mean, as they clearly don't know at present.

    On the debate of who is responsible for the RTPI, it's clear it was a collaboration between NTA, Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council so I honestly don't see why we are arguing about it, we should be happy that everyone worked together for once, rather than having a turf war or something.


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    #59
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    From the news release when the service launched. Dublin City Council on contract to the NTA do indeed manage the signs. But the whole software system that underpins the service centrally also comes under their remit and has no association with Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann whatsoever because the same system is used to power Bus Eireann services and shortly private operators.

    Dublin Bus, as outlined above are responsible for the predictions and of course also of the on vehicle equipment. But the actual backend of the system is provided by Dublin City council and anyone suggesting otherwise is doing so for inpure reasons.

    But that only relates to getting the information from the individual company sites onto the signs or the NTA site.

    The information on the DB app, DB website and Bus Eireann website all come directly from the companies themselves.

    Therefore it is very unfair to say that the companies had very little to do with it. They have everything to do with it as they provide all the data for the displays and did all of the work to produce the predictive times.


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    #60
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    lxflyer wrote: »
    But that only relates to getting the information from the individual company sites onto the signs or the NTA site.

    It's a little more substantial than that. There is a back-end system which is designed to collate all information from various companies systems, then output them to mediums such as the soon to be launched journey planner, multi-operator RTPI website. There are three systems at play here.
    The information on the DB app, DB website and Bus Eireann website all come directly from the companies themselves.

    Dublin Bus may well be taking their feed from their systems directly for their website and applications
    Therefore it is very unfair to say that the companies had very little to do with it. They have everything to do with it as they provide all the data for the displays and did all of the work to produce the predictive times.

    It is perhaps unfair to say they had little to do with it, but at the same time it is also unfair to say they had everything to do with it as it was a project with efforts from a number of bodies and if one or more of the bodies had not been comitted to it we'd have a half baked solution or perhaps none at all.

    I do agree that they provide the data for the displays and the predictive times and schedules. That cannot be debated, neither can the fact that the on bus and depot equipment was procured by Dublin Bus. I have never argued that this was not the case.

    As I said earlier, there is a back-end of the system that is managed by the NTA and DCC which is going to be used in the future to allow other operators to plug into the system. That was deliberately the case and is purely down to the NTA and DCC to allow others to plug into it, which can only be a good thing for people who see the bigger picture of public transport in this country.


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    #61
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,546 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I don't disagree with your last post at all - it was original post that I had an issue with as it certainly suggested DB had little to do with the development of the RTPI system which is patently not the case.


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