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The battle of the Bog

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    #122
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Who??


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    #123
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Who??


    BnM of course.


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    #124
    SdoowSirhc
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭SdoowSirhc


    Seriously, what is the problem with using the bogs? People have been at it for years, why stop them now?


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    #125
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    SdoowSirhc wrote: »
    Seriously, what is the problem with using the bogs? People have been at it for years, why stop them now?


    People used CFCs for years too, why were they banned?
    The negative consequences of domestic cutting on raised bogs were confirmed by the Raised Bog Monitoring Project (Fernandez et al., 2005), which assessed the conservation status of a selection of designated raised bogs sites (covering almost 50% of the national resource). It was found that there has been a 36.80% decrease in extent of priority habitats on these bogs over a ten years period, and that 1% of the high bog area had been irreversibly lost. The conservation status of the Active Raised Bog habitat on these sites was assessed as “Unfavourable bad”.

    The situation in relation to the remaining sites is likely to be as bad if not worst and therefore, the results can be taken to be representative for the situation of all designated raised bogs. The major cause of the adverse impacts was considered to be domestic peat cutting, combined with the associated drainage and burning. Hence, this study confirmed the incompatibility of these activities with raised bog conservation. Under the terms of the Habitats Directive, Ireland is required to maintain the habitats listed in the Directive in favourable conservation status. Therefore, further deterioration would be opposed by the EU and possible economic sanctions may arise if favourable conservation status is not achieved.

    source


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    #126
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    MadsL wrote: »
    People used CFCs for years too,

    People never "used" CFCs, manufacturers of packaging and fridges did.

    Bord na Mona never lost a bog to a SAC unlike private sector cutters. They did transfer a few ones they did not or could not use directly to the state and which subsequently became NHAs and possibly SACs.

    Only private sector bogs were designated SACs while being cut.


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    #127
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    People never "used" CFCs, manufacturers of packaging and fridges did.

    Pedantic, there was a period where CFC-free was a consumer choice.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Bord na Mona never lost a bog to a SAC unlike private sector cutters. They did transfer a few ones they did not or could not use directly to the state and which subsequently became NHAs and possibly SACs.

    Only private sector bogs were designated SACs while being cut.

    So BnM are not cutting any SAC bogs at the moment then. Thank you for confirming that.


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    #128
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    MadsL wrote: »
    People used CFCs for years too,

    People never "used" CFCs, manufacturers of packaging and fridges did.

    Bord na Mona never lost a bog to a SAC unlike private sector cutters. They did transfer a few ones they did not or could not use directly to the state and which subsequently became NHAs and possibly SACs.

    Only private sector bogs were designated SACs while being cut.

    Clara Bog is one such bog handed over by the Bord. There are many others. A lot of which the Bord paid fair amounts of money acquiring under cpo only for them to be designated.

    Doesn't stop people saying how come Bord na Mona are getting away with this, oh yeah leave the big guy alone but go after the little guy etc etc.

    Not saying you have but you see it over and over again being trotted out by Ming and his ilk.


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    #129
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Clara Bog is one such bog handed over by the Bord. There are many others. A lot of which the Bord paid fair amounts of money acquiring under cpo only for them to be designated. .

    Ehhh Clara Bog was 'undevelopable' wasn't it. No wonder BnM handed it over. :)


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    #130
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    MadsL wrote: »
    Where are you getting 12% from?


    ya i read it wrong still why isn't this bog protected its already state owned so easy to stop cutting on


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    #131
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    ya i read it wrong still why isn't this bog protected its already state owned so easy to stop cutting on

    If it is not a SAC or NHA then there is no legal requirement to do so, unlike the legal requirement to stop cutting on other bogs. You may not like that fact but that BnM are cutting on a tiny fraction of unprotected raise bog does not give others the right to cut on protected raised bogs.


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    #132
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    MadsL wrote: »
    You may not like that fact but that BnM are cutting on a tiny fraction of unprotected raise bog does not give others the right to cut on protected raised bogs.
    Bord na Móna were not faced with having 100% of their bog protected out from under them like private owners were. Nor did they suffer a lot (relatively) seeing as they cut over 60% of all the raised bog in the state.


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    #133
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    As usual in Oireland the State regulates something and the 'locals' - aka - 'the law doesn't apply to me brigade' have a fit. I've listened to people around me bitching along the lines of, 'who do they think they are telling me I can't cut turf?' etc etc.

    SD


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    #134
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    I've had to delete a few posts. Please keep smart-arse comments for a more appropriate forum, as they only serve to inflame other posters and drive things off-topic here.


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    #135
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Bord na Móna were not faced with having 100% of their bog protected out from under them like private owners were. Nor did they suffer a lot (relatively) seeing as they cut over 60% of all the raised bog in the state.

    Nor were they handsomely compensated for their loss over a number of years.

    What's your point?


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    #136
    majorsharpes
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭majorsharpes


    sorry if i'm off topic but does ne1 know i they r goin 2 stop turf cuttin in cork i living in nadd


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    #137
    Uriel.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    majorsharpes wrote: »
    sorry if i'm off topic but does ne1 know i they r goin 2 stop turf cuttin in cork i living in nadd

    affected bogs are listed on this page


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    #138
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    After 2 months of peace and quiet ( I assumed much of it weather induced) off we go again.

    http://www.galwaynews.ie/27379-clonmoylan-turfcutters-return-defy-eu-ban
    Raised bog owners in the Woodford area have returned to Clonmoylan to cut turf today [Aug 21] despite an EU ban.


    A group of up to 60 members from local families returned to the designated site this morning after a dispute over a machinery seizure ended exactly two months ago [Jun 21].


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    #139
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    And he says despite the ban, the group feel they are not breaking any law but upholding a tradition.

    Interesting word 'feel'. I don't 'feel' like paying my taxes. How long would a society last if we all did what we 'feel' we should do?


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    #140
    freyners
    Registered Users Posts: 4,298 ✭✭✭freyners


    gbfm wrote:
    12 bog complexes across County Galway are impacted by the EU directive - about a quarter of the number of designated boglands nationally.

    interesting figure, seems galway residents are getting hit harder than most over this. Would explain why many didn't see relocation as an option. With soo many now protected it seems that any relocation would be too far away (which is certainly what I've heard form people affected, plus the complaints over the quality)

    Government needs to revisit the compensation scheme in my opinion, why im sure it will be pointed out that this has been in situ for a long time, it obviously isnt acceptable to a lot of people


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    #141
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    freyners wrote: »
    interesting figure, seems galway residents are getting hit harder than most over this. Would explain why many didn't see relocation as an option. With soo many now protected it seems that any relocation would be too far away (which is certainly what I've heard form people affected, plus the complaints over the quality)

    Government needs to revisit the compensation scheme in my opinion, why im sure it will be pointed out that this has been in situ for a long time, it obviously isnt acceptable to a lot of people

    If €1500 a year isn't enough to replace the loss of turf, you really want to be looking at getting some insulation.

    I wonder if revisit is code for 'gouge as much as possible'?


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    #142
    freyners
    Registered Users Posts: 4,298 ✭✭✭freyners


    MadsL wrote: »
    If €1500 a year isn't enough to replace the loss of turf, you really want to be looking at getting some insulation.

    I wonder if revisit is code for 'gouge as much as possible'?

    MadsL have I offended you in some way because the hostility isn't needed? The compensation has some serious flaws as I have mentioned in this thread

    the €1,500 is only available to the land owners, so a farmer with 3/4 banks cant (quite rightly imo) cannot claim for all the banks he owns. however the people who usually cut on these banks (normally family members) cannot claim for it either (before you point out that a farmer could transfer the land, you have never met an irish farmer). *

    *Massive caveat here: this is based from what I have been able to glean from people who live near me. if someone can point out otherwise I'll be happy to take this back.

    There the relocation option is the only option for people disenfranchised by the first. Some (not all) have been offered bogs miles away that make brining home the turf very awkward or banks where the turf is of poor quality.

    Hence why I feel the compensation scheme needs revisiting.


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    #143
    geneyuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭geneyuss


    MadsL wrote: »
    If €1500 a year isn't enough to replace the loss of turf, you really want to be looking at getting some insulation.

    I wonder if revisit is code for 'gouge as much as possible'?

    that is paltry compensation for contract turf cutters, who's livelyhood has jus been pulled out from underneath them and what about the now obsolete machinery ?

    also, 1500k does not or will not install oil heating into a home.


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    #144
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    freyners wrote: »
    MadsL have I offended you in some way because the hostility isn't needed? The compensation has some serious flaws as I have mentioned in this thread

    the €1,500 is only available to the land owners, so a farmer with 3/4 banks cant (quite rightly imo) cannot claim for all the banks he owns. however the people who usually cut on these banks (normally family members) cannot claim for it either (before you point out that a farmer could transfer the land, you have never met an irish farmer). *

    *Massive caveat here: this is based from what I have been able to glean from people who live near me. if someone can point out otherwise I'll be happy to take this back.

    There the relocation option is the only option for people disenfranchised by the first. Some (not all) have been offered bogs miles away that make brining home the turf very awkward or banks where the turf is of poor quality.

    Hence why I feel the compensation scheme needs revisiting.

    Sorry, the hostility was not aimed at you but rather those calling for the compensation to be "revisited". There has been a ten year period where it has been very clear that turf cutting will cease and the compensation has been increased by 50%. Those who stuck their heads in the ground for the last ten years are now crying foul.

    Oh, you have to travel to get your turf. Tough. Here's €23,000 instead of the travel. Your choice.
    Oh, not as good as your old turf. Tough. Here's €23,000 instead of the turf.
    Every Tom, Dick and Seamus now claim that they cut turf there and want €23,000 each from the taxpayer - would you ever fcuk off!

    Entitlement culture doesn't even begin to describe this whining.


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    #145
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    geneyuss wrote: »
    that is paltry compensation for contract turf cutters, who's livelyhood has jus been pulled out from underneath them and what about the now obsolete machinery ?

    also, 1500k does not or will not install oil heating into a home.

    Yeah, where's the compensation for the plasterers, chippies, brickies, labourers etc. who lost jobs in the housing bust .?

    "Just pulled out" - what? There was over 10 years notice that this was happening.

    If €23,000 doesn't upgrade your heating/insulation I don't know where you are getting a quote from, but they are gouging you.


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    #146
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Contract Turf cutters are not being compensated at all...nor should they be.

    The compensation should be for those who have established turbary or fee simple ownership rights. When 'alternative' bogs were offered half way across the country the wheels fairly collaped under the main compensation scheme.

    Freyners is correct, it will have to be revisited. As for Madsl
    Sorry, the hostility was not aimed at you but rather those calling for the compensation to be "revisited".

    Don't bother with any more of your "hostility" please. :D


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    #147
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Freyners is correct, it will have to be revisited.

    ...or what?

    What compensation are you proposing and why?


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    #148
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    MadsL wrote: »
    ...or what?

    What compensation are you proposing and why?

    Read the thread carefully, I already covered this issue.


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    #149
    geneyuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭geneyuss


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Contract Turf cutters are not being compensated at all...nor should they be.

    The compensation should be for those who have established turbary or fee simple ownership rights. When 'alternative' bogs were offered half way across the country the wheels fairly collaped under the main compensation scheme.

    Freyners is correct, it will have to be revisited. As for Madsl



    Don't bother with any more of your "hostility" please. :D

    care to explain why you believe our government under the direction of a few leftie pen -pushers in Europe should be allowed to put hundreds of people out of work and not offer any compensation ?


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    #150
    geneyuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭geneyuss


    MadsL wrote: »
    Yeah, where's the compensation for the plasterers, chippies, brickies, labourers etc. who lost jobs in the housing bust .?

    "Just pulled out" - what? There was over 10 years notice that this was happening.

    If €23,000 doesn't upgrade your heating/insulation I don't know where you are getting a quote from, but they are gouging you.

    nobody is stopping those people working, and to be truthful, your comparisons make it very clear you know nothing of this subject, there was no ten year notice of any compensation packages, or was it ever made clear what was actually happening as is normal with successive Irish governments.And i am at a loss as to where this E23000 is coming from, but im sure you have a link for that.


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    #151
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    geneyuss wrote: »
    care to explain why you believe our government under the direction of a few leftie pen -pushers in Europe should be allowed to put hundreds of people out of work and not offer any compensation ?
    It is a piece of legislation that we signed up to through our MEPs and through our Environment Minister. The idea that someone in Brussels is 'forcing' us into this law is incorrect. The government is simply being obliged to agree to something it signed up to years ago.


This discussion has been closed.
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