8th Amendment

Gael23 · 24-05-2015 6:45pm #1

Will we ever see a referendum to repeal this?

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 8:32pm

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

Gael23 · 24-05-2015 8:43pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

Thats inevitable that one or both will be. Labour are going to get an almighty hammering but it really hinges on the performance of SF and FF as to weather or not Labour will have a place in it.
The next coalition won't last long as it will involve either 3 parties or 2 parties backed by INDs so there may not be time to put it through.
I sont know what the 8th would be replaced with

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 8:47pm

I think Labour will lose seats but might not be wiped out.

To avoid SF getting into power we could well see FG/FF going in together with a majority.

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:12pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

Nobody of child bearing age had the right to vote on this. For issues like this we really should be having a referendum each generation

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 9:17pm

P_1 wrote: »

Nobody of child bearing age had the right to vote on this. For issues like this we really should be having a referendum each generation

Should we re-visit the divorce decision every 20 years also? Lisbon, Childrens' rights, the Right to Travel etc?

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:21pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Should we re-visit the divorce decision every 20 years also? Lisbon, Childrens' rights, the Right to Travel etc?

Wouldn't do any harm to be honest, always good to reaffirm what we want in our society each generation or so

Black Menorca · 24-05-2015 9:23pm

P_1 wrote: »

Wouldn't do any harm to be honest, always good to reaffirm what we want in our society each generation or so

I'm not knocking your idea by the way. I just wonder how practical it would be and where the cut off point would be.

Could you imagine the Liberal elites putting Divorce back on a referendum ballot paper?

P_1 · 24-05-2015 9:27pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I'm not knocking your idea by the way. I just wonder how practical it would be and where the cut off point would be.

Could you imagine the Liberal elites putting Divorce back on a referendum ballot paper?

I'd suggest the vote not to be a simple yes/no poll rather a keep as it is/revisit poll.

It'll make our democracy a bit more healthy, rather relying on charlatans who will basically say anything to get their 5 year terms.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 9:12am

Labour say they will push for it if they are part of the next Government. Vote Pro Life.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 9:20am

Glenman wrote: »

Labour say they will push for it if they are part of the next Government. Vote Pro Life.

I will be voting Labour in the next GE, but will be fighting them tooth and nail on any change to the 8th that could liberalise abortion.

Labour have lots of qualities on economic and many social issues.

There is no dichotomy in supporting them in a GE for their overall policy make up and opposing them vigorously on certain issues.

I am passionately pro-life and will remain so for as long as I'm on this planet.

Thankfully on the 8th, FF have said they will not make repealing the 8th a priority and I can't see FG doing so either.

The real abortion industry would need a majority Left administration to have any hope. But I may be wrong.

galljga1 · 25-05-2015 9:30am

Gael23 wrote: »

Thats inevitable that one or both will be. Labour are going to get an almighty hammering but it really hinges on the performance of SF and FF as to weather or not Labour will have a place in it.
The next coalition won't last long as it will involve either 3 parties or 2 parties backed by INDs so there may not be time to put it through.
I sont know what the 8th would be replaced with

Legislation.

fits · 25-05-2015 9:45am

I will vote labour if they make this referendum happen.
A personal contact had to travel to abort a much wanted but fatally abnormal foetus. There is no way she could have carried to term. They brought foetus home in boot of car to bury. Current system is absolutely cruel and heartless.
These decisions should be between woman, partner and doctors and noone else.

seamus · 25-05-2015 10:01am

P_1 wrote: »

I'd suggest the vote not to be a simple yes/no poll rather a keep as it is/revisit poll.

It'll make our democracy a bit more healthy, rather relying on charlatans who will basically say anything to get their 5 year terms.

A keep/revisit poll seems like a lot of effort considering that then you need to draft a new amendment and vote on it...again.

I think a citizen's initiative scheme would be a far better idea. While the constitutional convention was a nice idea, at the end of the day the population had no say on what would and wouldn't be up for referendum.

Something whereby you "register" an initiative with an independent body (like RefCom), and then you have 6 months to gather 500,000 signatures (plucking figures from the air here). Succeed in that, and the government is required to put it to referendum within the next 2 years.

I would limit it specifically to constitutional matters - adding/amending/removing articles - rather than any old initiative like, "Legalise marijuana".

Likewise for me, if Labour put repealing the 8th high on their agenda for the next government, that'll bump them up my list a good bit.

Godge · 25-05-2015 10:45am

galljga1 wrote: »

Legislation.

I absolutely 100% agree.

Family, marriage, abortion etc. should be left out of the Constitution.

It should be pared back to basics.

A new Constitution for Ireland should set out the respective roles of the judiciary, the legislature, the Executive and the President. Separation of powers being the important consideration.

Beyond that, it should be pared back, containing aspirations rather than prescriptions as we have seen the damage a poorly worded 8th amendment can do.

P_1 · 25-05-2015 11:10am

seamus wrote: »

A keep/revisit poll seems like a lot of effort considering that then you need to draft a new amendment and vote on it...again.

I think a citizen's initiative scheme would be a far better idea. While the constitutional convention was a nice idea, at the end of the day the population had no say on what would and wouldn't be up for referendum.

Something whereby you "register" an initiative with an independent body (like RefCom), and then you have 6 months to gather 500,000 signatures (plucking figures from the air here). Succeed in that, and the government is required to put it to referendum within the next 2 years.

I would limit it specifically to constitutional matters - adding/amending/removing articles - rather than any old initiative like, "Legalise marijuana".

Likewise for me, if Labour put repealing the 8th high on their agenda for the next government, that'll bump them up my list a good bit.

True it might be a tad unwieldy but ultimately I'd consider it a fairer system of democracy than the watered down version we have where it is led from whoever happens to be in power.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 11:18am

fits wrote: »

I will vote labour if they make this referendum happen.
A personal contact had to travel to abort a much wanted but fatally abnormal foetus. There is no way she could have carried to term. They brought foetus home in boot of car to bury. Current system is absolutely cruel and heartless.
These decisions should be between woman, partner and doctors and noone else.

This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

fits · 25-05-2015 11:23am

Glenman wrote: »

This will be like the SSM, everyone has a different opinion, I believe that God gave life and only he should take it away.

Can you try to imagine yourself in my friends position? I mean really try. Going to work every day with a growing bump, with a foetus that cannot survive outside the womb. Can you imagine answering all the questions about when you are due etc. Telling all your friends and family again and again and again? You are already forty and each month that passes goes against your chances of a successful pregnancy. Life is not black and white.

Glenman · 25-05-2015 11:56am

fits wrote: »

Can you try to imagine yourself in my friends position? I mean really try. Going to work every day with a growing bump, with a foetus that cannot survive outside the womb. Can you imagine answering all the questions about when you are due etc. Telling all your friends and family again and again and again? You are already forty and each month that passes goes against your chances of a successful pregnancy. Life is not black and white.

Yes, I agree, it's easy for me to make judgments when I am not in the situation.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 3:04pm

galljga1 wrote: »

Legislation.

What form of legislation?

Gael23 · 25-05-2015 3:07pm

I would back legislation but wouldn't there still have to be a referendum to repeal the 8th?

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 3:09pm

Any move to liberalise Abortion in this country will be met with an avalanche of opposition.

FreudianSlippers · 25-05-2015 3:17pm

I'm not necessarily sure we need to repeal the 8th - it's so vague and aspirational that most legislation could work within it.

I particularly find the law in England & Wales well worded:

Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

Zubeneschamali · 25-05-2015 3:28pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

Any move to liberalise Abortion in this country will be met with an avalanche of opposition.

Given the fact that our Constitution guarantees abortion on demand for the price of a city break in the UK, I can't see many people taking on that avalanche of insanity just to make abortion available on an equal basis to immigrants, institutionalized women and the very poor.

No Voter And Proud · 25-05-2015 4:25pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

I sincerely hope not. A lot will depend on the make up of the next government. If we have an FF/FG coalition we'll be safe.

But given the success of the marriage referendum, I can see it coming in a few years time if Labour and or SF are part of the executive.

One of the big questions for me will be what proponents of the 8th's removal will replace it with?

I agree, unfortunately it seems the way things are going.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:16pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm not necessarily sure we need to repeal the 8th - it's so vague and aspirational that most legislation could work within it.

I particularly find the law in England & Wales well worded:

Section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -

(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated
(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

The same UK law that allows 200,000 abortions a year? No thanks.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:18pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Given the fact that our Constitution guarantees abortion on demand for the price of a city break in the UK, I can't see many people taking on that avalanche of insanity just to make abortion available on an equal basis to immigrants, institutionalized women and the very poor.

Just as Ireland is a beacon of hope for Gay people around the world, so to is Ireland a beacon of hope for advocates of Life.

The 8th Amendment, combined with the X Case legislation is a wonderful bullwark against the evils of the abortion industry.

Penny Tration · 25-05-2015 5:20pm

Black Menorca wrote: »

The same UK law that allows 200,000 abortions a year? No thanks.

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

No Voter And Proud · 25-05-2015 5:21pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

Thankfully there are enough sensible people in the country that abortion on demand like in the UK will never happen - not in our lifetimes anyway - here.

So go vote in the lefties all you want, won't matter.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:21pm

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

I agree, unfortunately it seems the way things are going.

Micháel Martin has assued us that it won't be part of an FF programme for Government, I can't see Enda prioritising it either.

Now an SF or Labour would insist on it as part of a coalition deal so we may well have to face up to an attack on unborn life in the coming years.

But an FF/FG arrangement would secure things for now..

But a referendum is more likely than not.

In that circumstance, a defeat of said proposal would wrap it up for another 20 years.

Black Menorca · 25-05-2015 5:23pm

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes please.

If Labour are going to push to repeal the 8th amendment, I'll more than likely give them my vote instead of spoiling my vote.

I will be voting Labour so happy days. Labour in Government is the best bet for the working class in this country.

But I'll be fighting a repeal of the 8th for the time of the campaign, if it comes to pass.

8th Amendment

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