Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

Stevek101 · 27-03-2015 8:03pm

Aard · 27-03-2015 9:08pm

There should be more drawings out soon. Then one more public consultation.

I'm not sure the NTA's summary of issues is comprehensive. There's very little mention of cycling facilities along the route, which were awful designs. Alas.

cgcsb · 27-03-2015 11:22pm

My comment about centre of the road running was included, which I'm happy about. A few comments about parking at schools. Seriously its Dublin, walk, cycle or take a bus. How far away are these people living from their local school.

Aard · 27-03-2015 11:27pm

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

Banjoxed · 28-03-2015 9:04am

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

The public inquiry into Luas Line B had several cookie cutter submissions from one area. Nothing unusual about that, unfortunately.

monument · 28-03-2015 3:38pm

From KildareStreet.com:

The National Transport Authority (NTA) has advised me that the business case for the SwiftwayBus Rapid Transit (BRT) system for the Swords/Airport corridor will be submitted in early April.

....

The six projects shortlisted under Phase One of the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study published on 8th December are now undergoing further independent analysis assessing cost, engineering, environmental and usage forecasts. The National Transport Authority (NTA) have indicated that they expect to submit the output of the Study in early April.

That output will then require careful consideration in tandem with other analyses being undertaken, including the updating of a business case for the DART Underground project and the work being carried out in the preparation of a draft Transport Strategy for the GDA. I expect to finalise this review by mid-2015 in conjunction with the development of the transport strategy for the region.

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

A lot of Fingal is car centric. The answer for many/most trips will be a car and it can be hard for some people to switch and in many cases the public transport options are at best mixed:

Commute to local Swords area: car
Commute to airport: car
Commute to outlining Dublin City area: car
Commute to Sandyford: car
Commute to Tesco warehouse off the R132: car
Shopping in Swords: car
Shopping along M50 shopping centres: car
Shopping in city centre: car
Children to school: car
After school activity: car
Visit to friend's house in costal town: car

I'm not saying it's the same for everybody but I can see that the public transport options are not very attractive and often very unattractive from the north-west of Swords to most of these places. Even if the bus is used currently for some trips by a household, most trips from that household may still be by car. A lot of these trips could be done on bikes but the cycling network is also poor.

For the record: I don't think the traffic impacts would be as bad as claimed.

hfallada · 28-03-2015 3:47pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

The public inquiry into Luas Line B had several cookie cutter submissions from one area. Nothing unusual about that, unfortunately.

My parents brought a house and were seeking planning for 3 houses on the site. The whole entire road of 20 houses had 18 objections to it(the entire road except my parents and the neighbour next store who built 2 houses on his site). Dublin City council/an bord planalta saw through every single one of the BS objections eg someone said the houses would block her sun light and give her rickets.

I imagine the NTA will see through most BS

clunked · 28-03-2015 4:19pm

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

To be honest, a bus 'slow-way' is (and I don't mean this to be personal at all) a polished turd of an option and to me as one who lived in the greater Swords area for a number of years. It would be a complete waste of money. For me build a metro or Dart or invest the money elsewhere.

Icepick · 28-03-2015 5:59pm

The only important sentence in that document:

The Swords to City BRT corridor only provides an interim solution. A higher capacity rail solution is necessary;

Stop wasting our money already, scrap this and put all the resources into MN.

LXFlyer · 28-03-2015 6:31pm

Again, I think we need to point out that MN and BRT are not mutually exclusive. Neither of these proposals are about serving Swords and the Airport alone.

BRT will serve the entire Swords corridor, while MN will serve Swords, the Airport, and the Ballymun corridor.

They are about providing a high frequency service along the entire corridor - not just the end points.

People seem completely blinkered to this.

Calina · 28-03-2015 6:38pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Again, I think we need to point out that MN and BRT are not mutually exclusive. Neither of these proposals are about serving Swords and the Airport alone.

BRT will serve the entire Swords corridor, while MN will serve Swords, the Airport, and the Ballymun corridor.

They are about providing a high frequency service along the entire corridor - not just the end points.

People seem completely blinkered to this.

SO BRT and MN will serve the Swords airport corridor, MN will serve Ballymun and BRT will serve Drumcondra, right?

Because quite frankly, Drumcondra is incredibly well served and Swords does not need both BRT and MN.

markpb · 28-03-2015 6:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Again, I think we need to point out that MN and BRT are not mutually exclusive. Neither of these proposals are about serving Swords and the Airport alone.

BRT will serve the entire Swords corridor, while MN will serve Swords, the Airport, and the Ballymun corridor.

They are about providing a high frequency service along the entire corridor - not just the end points.

People seem completely blinkered to this.

If this is built, Metro North won't even be considered for many decades. Think about it from a political point of view: why spend more money on the Swords/Santry corridor when it has BRT?

LXFlyer · 28-03-2015 7:36pm

markpb wrote: »

If this is built, Metro North won't even be considered for many decades. Think about it from a political point of view: why spend more money on the Swords/Santry corridor when it has BRT?

Well that's a matter of opinion. I don't see bus and rail as mutually exclusive.
That's what the North Dublin transport study is going to address.

We will have to wait and see.

Icepick · 28-03-2015 10:56pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well that's a matter of opinion. I don't see bus and rail as mutually exclusive.

But we have a bus service already. And it could be significantly improved if the management wasn't so incompetent.

Banjoxed · 28-03-2015 11:34pm

Icepick wrote: »

But we have a bus service already. And it could be significantly improved if the management wasn't so incompetent.

I'd be fascinated to see what sort of management could resolve pinch points, private drives onto bus lanes and the general cock-a-doodle-doo that has been Dublin traffic since I was a lad in short trousers. Get someone to manage that, and they could sell their spit for spun gold anywhere.

bk · 30-03-2015 11:09am

What people keep missing or ignoring about the proposed BRT project, is that it isn't just about putting bendy buses on the road. Most of the cost of this project is major road re-engineering, to remove pinch points, put in place bus priority and massively overhaul all the Dublin Bus bus stops.

This re-enginering work will not only benefit the bendy buses, but all buses that use this route, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Matthews, etc.

It is exactly this sort of road engineering and bus stop upgrades that Dublin Bus staff have been crying out for years for.

Banjoxed · 30-03-2015 11:30am

bk wrote: »

What people keep missing or ignoring about the proposed BRT project, is that it isn't just about putting bendy buses on the road. Most of the cost of this project is major road re-engineering, to remove pinch points, put in place bus priority and massively overhaul all the Dublin Bus bus stops.

This re-enginering work will not only benefit the bendy buses, but all buses that use this route, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Matthews, etc.

It is exactly this sort of road engineering and bus stop upgrades that Dublin Bus staff have been crying out for years for.

You say that, bk, but will the reality stand up to the hype? The QBC project was ballyhooed as being a low cost alternative to rail investment but crucial pinch points were never addressed. Luas can't even have traffic light priority because of the Chicken Licken "The-sky-is-falling" PR of motor industry lobbyists.

Why will BRT be any different, when the concentration is on the shininess of the buses and nimby objections?

bk · 30-03-2015 11:44am

Banjoxed wrote: »

You say that, bk, but will the reality stand up to the hype? The QBC project was ballyhooed as being a low cost alternative to rail investment but crucial pinch points were never addressed. Luas can't even have traffic light priority because of the Chicken Licken "The-sky-is-falling" PR of motor industry lobbyists.

Why will BRT be any different, when the concentration is on the shininess of the buses and nimby objections?

Go look at the very detailed plans for yourself, they are all there for you to see.

Road widenings, bridge widenings, new road slips, new BRT stops, re-engineered and indented Dublin Bus stops, new road junctions, new foot paths, new cycle paths are all right there in the plans.

cgcsb · 30-03-2015 1:55pm

bk wrote: »

What people keep missing or ignoring about the proposed BRT project, is that it isn't just about putting bendy buses on the road. Most of the cost of this project is major road re-engineering, to remove pinch points, put in place bus priority and massively overhaul all the Dublin Bus bus stops.

This re-enginering work will not only benefit the bendy buses, but all buses that use this route, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Aircoach, Matthews, etc.

It is exactly this sort of road engineering and bus stop upgrades that Dublin Bus staff have been crying out for years for.

Bus Priority at lights:

Introduced as part of City Swift. Turned off to support the motor industry.
Introduced to the luas red line. Turned off to support the motor industry.

Are we now saying that this time we will definitely get light priority for real-real, pinky promise?

regarding brt at junctions, from plans we still have the bus lane disappearing in favour of a left turning lane at many busy junctions, which = queues to turn left, which = no improvement on current junctions.

We've also not seen any serious indication of actual bus lane enforcement.

pclive · 30-03-2015 1:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Bus Priority at lights:

Introduced as part of City Swift. Turned off to support the motor industry.
Introduced to the luas red line. Turned off to support the motor industry.

Are we now saying that this time we will definitely get light priority for real-real, pinky promise?

regarding brt at junctions, from plans we still have the bus lane disappearing in favour of a left turning lane at many busy junctions, which = queues to turn left, which = no improvement on current junctions.

We've also not seen any serious indication of actual bus lane enforcement.

The LUAS has full priority at the vast majority of signals

cgcsb · 30-03-2015 2:02pm

pclive wrote: »

The LUAS has full priority at the vast majority of signals

so why long waits at church st, capel st and Amien st

pclive · 30-03-2015 2:08pm

I've asked about Church street - there is a recent detector fault inbound which is causing the trams to stop
Capel street receives full priority
I enquired before about Amiens street and it receives full priority apart from the PM peak

end of the road · 30-03-2015 2:16pm

bk wrote: »

Go look at the very detailed plans for yourself, they are all there for you to see.

Road widenings, bridge widenings, new road slips, new BRT stops, re-engineered and indented Dublin Bus stops, new road junctions, new foot paths, new cycle paths are all right there in the plans.

they are in the plans yes, but he is asking you will it all be delivered and live up to its expectations? it is ireland after all so i'm not so sure.

end of the road · 30-03-2015 2:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

so why long waits at church st, capel st and Amien st

to support ja cars begorra, or is it, cors loyk?

View · 30-03-2015 2:25pm

pclive wrote: »

I enquired before about Amiens street and it receives full priority apart from the PM peak

Either it receives full priority or it doesn't.

If is receives priority some (or most) of the time, it isn't receiving FULL priority.

bk · 30-03-2015 3:05pm

end of the road wrote: »

they are in the plans yes, but he is asking you will it all be delivered and live up to its expectations? it is ireland after all so i'm not so sure.

Obviously junction priority is a question.

But all the other works, road windeings, etc. are physical changes that can't be turned off!

stehyl15 · 31-03-2015 12:17am

I wonder where the garage for these brt buses will be

Cookie_Monster · 31-03-2015 12:54am

bk wrote: »

But all the other works, road windeings, etc. are physical changes that can't be turned off!

Until they're physically built however they can be NIMBY-ed out

monument · 31-03-2015 1:22am

View wrote: »

Either it receives full priority or it doesn't.

If is receives priority some (or most) of the time, it isn't receiving FULL priority.

There's no such thing as full priorty on street level.

Shedite27 · 31-03-2015 9:01am

monument wrote: »

There's no such thing as full priorty on street level.

Yeah call it first priority

thomasj · 31-03-2015 9:19am

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder where the garage for these brt buses will be

I'm hoping and presuming there will be a new large depot for BRT buses.

It wouldn't make sense storing these in Dublin bus depots. Dublin bus maybe operating the routes but its the NTAs baby and a factor for where to store vehicles would I presumably include easy access to the resources for whoever takes over in the event DB was to lose the contract in the future.

Furthermore, very few of DBs depots would have the capacity to cater for 1 route. A large depot being built would make sense as you can plan for multiple routes. Finding land near the m50 would make sense as it would be in class proximity to the planned airport-city, blanchardstown-ucd and coolock-tallaght routes.

Furthermore it would be better to have a management team that could just focus on BRT rather than BRT and a dozen or so bus routes

ax586 · 31-03-2015 9:52am

thomasj wrote: »

I'm hoping and presuming there will be a new large depot for BRT buses.

It wouldn't make sense storing these in Dublin bus depots. Dublin bus maybe operating the routes but its the NTAs baby and a factor for where to store vehicles would I presumably include easy access to the resources for whoever takes over in the event DB was to lose the contract in the future.

Furthermore, very few of DBs depots would have the capacity to cater for 1 route. A large depot being built would make sense as you can plan for multiple routes. Finding land near the m50 would make sense as it would be in class proximity to the planned airport-city, blanchardstown-ucd and coolock-tallaght routes.

Furthermore it would be better to have a management team that could just focus on BRT rather than BRT and a dozen or so bus routes

There to be based in harristown garage

Tarabuses · 31-03-2015 2:40pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Bus Priority at lights:

Introduced as part of City Swift. Turned off to support the motor industry.
Introduced to the luas red line. Turned off to support the motor industry.

Are we now saying that this time we will definitely get light priority for real-real, pinky promise?

regarding brt at junctions, from plans we still have the bus lane disappearing in favour of a left turning lane at many busy junctions, which = queues to turn left, which = no improvement on current junctions.

We've also not seen any serious indication of actual bus lane enforcement.

Luas priority at traffic lights has also been turned off on the green line.

ax586 · 31-03-2015 3:07pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

I wonder where the garage for these brt buses will be

Harristown garage

end of the road · 31-03-2015 3:09pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

Luas priority at traffic lights has also been turned off on the green line.

ridiculous. luas should have priority over everything else. if the motor industry don't like it, then tough. nothing they could do about it if the right people were in charge

cgcsb · 31-03-2015 3:32pm

end of the road wrote: »

ridiculous. luas should have priority over everything else. if the motor industry don't like it, then tough. nothing they could do about it if the right people were in charge

I think that the argument against luas priority is that there are more bus passengers crossing O'Connell st/Abbey st junction north-south than there is luas passengers crossing east-west. Which I understand. Doesn't explain trams waiting at Capel st and Church street and even blackhall place.

Dyr · 31-03-2015 4:00pm

ax586 wrote: »

Harristown garage

be interesting to see if swiftway is prone to the malaise of every other service that emerges from that benighted garage

pclive · 31-03-2015 4:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think that the argument against luas priority is that there are more bus passengers crossing O'Connell st/Abbey st junction north-south than there is luas passengers crossing east-west. Which I understand. Doesn't explain trams waiting at Capel st and Church street and even blackhall place.

Very rarely have I ever been stopped at Capel Street
LUAS has to stop at Blackhall place for safety reasons

donvito99 · 31-03-2015 10:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I think that the argument against luas priority is that there are more bus passengers crossing O'Connell st/Abbey st junction north-south than there is luas passengers crossing east-west. Which I understand. Doesn't explain trams waiting at Capel st and Church street and even blackhall place.

He said Green Line. There's little to know reason to remove priority from the Green line, especially now given that 14/15 and others continue North on Camden St.

end of the road · 31-03-2015 10:25pm

donvito99 wrote: »

He said Green Line. There's little to know reason to remove priority from the Green line, especially now given that 14/15 and others continue North on Camden St.

the poster i replied to was talking about the green line. i believe both lines should have first priority myself but it looks like that is never going to happen

cgcsb · 15-06-2015 12:38pm

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

thomasj · 15-06-2015 1:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

Its hard to say what's going on, but based on the publication of the document on plans for the city centre only released only a couple of days ago, is still very much alive and kicking for all 3 routes.

mickmmc · 15-06-2015 3:31pm

The editor of the North County Leader, based in Swords, had a front page opinion piece stating that BRT was not acceptable to the people of North County Dublin. Politicians are obsessed with the media and I wonder has the North County Leader killed off the BRT route from Swords.

In my opinion BRT for Swords is a waste of money. The money saved on BRT could be put towards Metro North, which should be postponed for a number of years.

Swords has a good bus service at the moment - routes 41, 41C, 43 and 33 all pass through Swords Main Street to the City Centre. Also, Swords Express and 41x serve Swords.

The problem with the 41 is the time that going into Dublin Airport can add to the journey. Inbound it can add 10-15mins with all the bags and tourists messing with leap cards and change. However, for Dublin Bus it is a busy stop inbound and is a cheap service to the City Centre for backpackers and quicker than the 16, which goes to the City Centre via Beaumont.

More direct DB services from Swords would be ideal, which avoid the Airport.

ballooba · 15-06-2015 3:36pm

It's still in design/planning, but won't start construction until after completion of BXD.

cgcsb · 15-06-2015 3:42pm

ballooba wrote: »

It's still in design/planning, but won't start construction until after completion of BXD.

Where's this coming from? There isn't really any conflict from a construction point of view between the two routes, at least none that can't easily be worked around.

stehyl15 · 16-06-2015 3:19pm

Yes they should a metro but a proper metro like the ones in other major european cities but the proposed one just looks like a glorified luas to me

thomasj · 16-06-2015 3:21pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Yes they should a metro but a proper metro like the ones in other major european cities but the proposed one just looks like a glorified luas to me

Given we have been waiting over 20 years for a metro, I'll take anything at this stage!

LXFlyer · 16-06-2015 3:35pm

cgcsb wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Thread bump. The NTA website indicates they wanted to go for planning in late 2014. It's now mid 2015 and nada. It seems the government's abition was to have at least 1 BRT route operational around the same time as BXD, that now looks impossible. Does anyone have any hear-say regarding what's happened to swiftway? Could it be dead, on the Swords corridor at least?

I'm not sure where you are getting that an application for planning would take place in 2014?

The first public consultation was in February-March 2014, which was very much an overview of the scheme.

The report analysing the responses was issued in July 2014.

In November-December 2014 the second public consultation took place, which outlined the detailed plans for the first time, and which incorporated changes to the route arising from the initial consultation.

The report analysing the responses to this second consultation was issued in April 2015. It can be viewed here:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Swords-Airport_to_City_Centre_Proposed_Scheme__Public_Consultation_Report_April_2015.pdf

It stated that the next steps would be to produce a final preliminary scheme (taking into account feedback where practical), which will include a full Environmental Impact Statement, and then to apply for planning approval during 2015, which will also include a statutory consultation process.

So, to answer your question, I would imagine that is precisely what they are doing - preparing the EIS. An EIS will take several months to prepare - it's not something that will happen overnight.

cgcsb · 16-06-2015 4:46pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure where you are getting that an application for planning would take place in 2014?

"development consent will be made to An Bord Pleanala later in 2014"

see link https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

LXFlyer · 16-06-2015 4:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

"development consent will be made to An Bord Pleanala later in 2014"

see link https://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/further-information/

Clearly that page hasn't been updated.

The work is ongoing as I outlined above - the next stage will be the final preliminary scheme leading to the planning application.

Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

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