"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

foggy_lad · 19-01-2012 2:02pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

A 5% increase on a T90 would bring it to €19.45,

FYP:)

mmcn90 wrote: »

Yeah its been answered a few pages back, there seems to be a problemwith rounding numbers on the computer system, leaving balances out by 1c.

xalot wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been answered (it's a big thread) but has anybody else had their card balance deducted wrongly? Basically I had a balance or 9.90 and paid a fare of 1.70 and according to the online system my balance is 8.19.

You couldn't make it up.

ninja900 wrote: »

FFS, they used floating point variables to handle money? All arithmetic should be done as integers with the amounts in cents. If you use floats, because the representation of decimal numbers in binary is inexact, sooner or later you will get noticeable errors.

Sloppy programming to say the least. I wonder how secure the personal info on their website is....

How can this system costing €55milion be trusted when the basics are so messed up?

etchyed · 19-01-2012 2:23pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

FYP:)

€19 * 1.05 = €19.95

AlekSmart · 19-01-2012 7:09pm

etchyed wrote: »

€19 * 1.05 = €19.95

Goodness,Foggy_Lad has stirred up a nest of mathematical hornets here !!!!

To recap on my point.....Dublin Bus applied for a 30%+ Increase on cash fares.

The NTA granted 15%,or 50% of the amount sought.

Now applying my flawed logic to the DB application for a pre-paid increase which I mused would be a sought 10% (In line with Luas grant).

So if the NTA approves 5%...we get 5% of €19.00 = .95c

SO...if we add .95c to €19.00 we arrive eventually at....€19.95....?...Or are my sums all foggied up ??

But it's all hypothetical at this point anyway,as I'm sure there are hundreds of NTA/DB economists beavering away to ensure that the Fares System is simplified and rendered attractive for a great many more users.....yes..????

Jesus Wept · 19-01-2012 8:01pm

Spar is listed as a leap card agent near where I live however they don't do it and a shop across the road do.

Website is annoyingly incorrect.

Tarabuses · 19-01-2012 9:38pm

Winters wrote: »

I encountered an issue where I tagged off one evening but my leap card didnt register it as a tag off and charged me the full €4.30 so I emailed leap card and this is was the response I received. How on earth this can be classified as 'integrated' god only knows..

The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.

D8 boy · 20-01-2012 1:01am

Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

I've been using my Leap card since before Christmas without too much bother. Like some other contributors to this thread, I find the display on the card reader hard to read and, aware of the queue of other passengers normally boarding after me, I tend to focus on the green light as a signal that the transaction has completed.

I made a number of bus journeys recently and had no idea of my balance. One evening I boarded a no. 13, placed my card on the reader to find that the machine didn't seem to be detect it. The driver got me to hold it different ways, stared at his display and eventually concluded the "the doo-dah must be broken, all you can do is sit down". Assuming this was a problem with the reader, i sat down and enjoyed my free journey home.

Next day, different bus, usual routine of putting the card on the reader and ask for €1.70. Again not a flicker from the reader, despite trying the card at different angles. This time the driver jabbed some buttons on the machine and said what sounded like "your balance is €1.25". Since this was less than the fare I had already asked for, I then asked what the cash equivalent of €1.70 and dived into my pockets to find €1.90 in change. By the time all of this was completed it looked like every pair of eyes on the lower deck was drilling into me...

When I got home I logged on to find that my balance was in fact -€1.25. I topped it up and it's working fine.

It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!

AlekSmart · 20-01-2012 1:13am

D8 boy wrote: »

Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!

D8 Boy,there's no "seems" about it,this is yet another example of some VERY poor forward (or backward) planning on the part of RPA/Leap.

It looks as if the proponents of Leap never actually boarded a bus under live conditions and tried their hand at various scenarios such as you experienced.

When an out of credit LeapCard is presented at the Drivers Ticket Machine,the screen defaults to the choice mode for Ticket Types or Further Info.

There is no audible warning to either driver or Leaper that the card is out of credit and the driver must then enter "View Card Details" to see the credit situation...another long winded and far from clear situation.

A simple "INSUFFICIENT CREDIT !" warning along with the actual balance would be sufficient,yet this is unlikely to happen.

From my recent experience,most of the lack of credit cases have had full Dart fares deducted without it being spotted until too late !!! :mad:

But,be glad....Dublin Bus has bought nothing...this gig is an NTA/ITS production....

foggy_lad · 20-01-2012 1:24am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Goodness,Foggy_Lad has stirred up a nest of mathematical hornets here !!!!

To recap on my point.....Dublin Bus applied for a 30%+ Increase on cash fares.

The NTA granted 15%,or 50% of the amount sought.

Now applying my flawed logic to the DB application for a pre-paid increase which I mused would be a sought 10% (In line with Luas grant).

So if the NTA approves 5%...we get 5% of €19.00 = .95c

SO...if we add .95c to €19.00 we arrive eventually at....€19.95....?...Or are my sums all foggied up ??

But it's all hypothetical at this point anyway,as I'm sure there are hundreds of NTA/DB economists beavering away to ensure that the Fares System is simplified and rendered attractive for a great many more users.....yes..????

You are absolutely correct with your mathematics SmartAlek:) I must have been gone fishing when they did percentages in skool:D

Winters · 20-01-2012 12:41pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.

Ring them and explain the issue. Dont bother emailing them.

robd · 20-01-2012 1:21pm

ninja900 wrote: »

FFS, they used floating point variables to handle money? All arithmetic should be done as integers with the amounts in cents. If you use floats, because the representation of decimal numbers in binary is inexact, sooner or later you will get noticeable errors.

Sloppy programming to say the least. I wonder how secure the personal info on their website is....

I would hazzard a guess that the it is the smart card that uses floating point, rather than the website. This would therefore be a technology limitation as it likely has limited memory hence lack of integer maths.

The website should be capable of fixing/allowing these errors though.

robd · 20-01-2012 1:25pm

D8 boy wrote: »

Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

I've been using my Leap card since before Christmas without too much bother. Like some other contributors to this thread, I find the display on the card reader hard to read and, aware of the queue of other passengers normally boarding after me, I tend to focus on the green light as a signal that the transaction has completed.

I made a number of bus journeys recently and had no idea of my balance. One evening I boarded a no. 13, placed my card on the reader to find that the machine didn't seem to be detect it. The driver got me to hold it different ways, stared at his display and eventually concluded the "the doo-dah must be broken, all you can do is sit down". Assuming this was a problem with the reader, i sat down and enjoyed my free journey home.

Next day, different bus, usual routine of putting the card on the reader and ask for €1.70. Again not a flicker from the reader, despite trying the card at different angles. This time the driver jabbed some buttons on the machine and said what sounded like "your balance is €1.25". Since this was less than the fare I had already asked for, I then asked what the cash equivalent of €1.70 and dived into my pockets to find €1.90 in change. By the time all of this was completed it looked like every pair of eyes on the lower deck was drilling into me...

When I got home I logged on to find that my balance was in fact -€1.25. I topped it up and it's working fine.

It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke. The Luas card readers make a warning noise and show a message when your balance is low and make a different noise again when the balance is insufficient to make a trip. And in London I know the Oyster machines on the buses make a suitably embarrassing noise when the card has run out.

Between the too-small displays, inaudible sounds, sloping reader surface and illogical handling of low balances, has Dublin Bus bought the worst smart card system ever?!!

Yes. I got caught out badly with a balance of -€0.55 on my card going to work earlier in the week on the Bus.

It's difficult to see the balance on the screen. Also I think the Luas and Irish Rail displays the balance pre deduction which is confusing.

The lack of any audible sign for anything on the Buses is extremely frustrating. Very bad UX design. Very bad from an accessibility perspective also. I've perfect eyesight and hearing and it's terrible but what about hard of hearing and people with severe short or long sight.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-01-2012 1:57pm

robd wrote: »

I would hazzard a guess that the it is the smart card that uses floating point, rather than the website. This would therefore be a technology limitation as it likely has limited memory hence lack of integer maths.

Integer arithmetic uses less space.
Smart cards are designed to handle money, they should be able to do this exactly, and I haven't heard of another smart card payment system that has rounding errors.

So it's not the card, it's something the NTA have done. The card itself is undoubtedly off-the-shelf.

Victor · 20-01-2012 7:49pm

Tarabuses wrote: »

The same thing happened to my daughter when she tagged off at Sutton having travelled from Connolly. She was also charged €4.30.

Have you been able to get this resolved? Is she sure she tagged off?

D8 boy wrote: »

Has anyone else tried to use a Leap card with a negative balance on a bus ?

You need a minimum of €0.01 to use it on the bus (€1.00 in the case of Airlink)

It seems a very strange design to make the card appear "dead" when it is in fact out of cash, but since this happened twice it seems unlikely to be a fluke.

I think I've experienced this too, but wasn't able to pinpoint it. I've three cards and at least one always has a positive balance.

Cyndaquil · 20-01-2012 8:23pm

Question, if I am making a Luas journey from Dundrum to Heuston, do I

A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.

or

B. tag on at Dundrum and not tag off until I reach Heuston

Thanks

Victor · 20-01-2012 9:02pm

Cyndaquil wrote: »

A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.

This.

The cash fare would appear to be €1.90 (two zones) or €1.75 with Leap. That actually seems to be good value.

Aard · 20-01-2012 11:44pm

Would that not be charged as two fares?

monument · 21-01-2012 1:55am

Cyndaquil wrote: »

Question, if I am making a Luas journey from Dundrum to Heuston, do I

A. tag on at Dundrum, tag off at Stephens green, tag on again at Abbey St and then off again at Heuston.

or

B. tag on at Dundrum and not tag off until I reach Heuston

Thanks

Victor wrote: »

This.

The cash fare would appear to be €1.90 (two zones) or €1.75 with Leap. That actually seems to be good value.

Really don't think it is A. It seems far more like B.

The Luas Fare Comparison tool puts Dundrum to Heuston as a "Single journey", thus you only tag on at Dundrum and off at Heuston.

goingnowhere · 21-01-2012 12:48pm

You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street

AlekSmart · 21-01-2012 6:16pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street

Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:

monument · 21-01-2012 7:46pm

Lads could you please back up your claims if you want to try and contradict what's on Luas.ie.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:

goingnowhere wrote: »

You must tag off at Stephen's Green and tag on again at Abbey Street

As I said the "Luas Fare Comparison tool" puts it as a single journey (for the record, as well as for Leap, it also puts it as a "Single journey" for a paper ticket):

The "Stop to Stop Fare Calculator" is also telling me:

"Your Total Fare is €1.90 euro
You shall require 1 tickets for your entered journey"

Victor · 21-01-2012 8:13pm

monument wrote: »

As I said the "Luas Fare Comparison tool" puts it as a single journey (for the record, as well as for Leap, it also puts it as a "Single journey" for a paper ticket):

By "single", they mean "not return".

If you were to validate your ticket at say Red Cow and then Ranelagh, Luas doesn't know if you have travelled via the city centre, route 17, 18 or 75 and when or where you have forgotten to tag-on or -off.

monument · 21-01-2012 9:22pm

Victor wrote: »

By "single", they mean "not return".

Single as in one single, not two singles.

It is one single if you tag on at Dundrum and off at Heuston. Tagging off at the green and on again at Abbey or Jervis would be two singles.

Victor wrote: »

If you were to validate your ticket at say Red Cow and then Ranelagh, Luas doesn't know if you have travelled via the city centre, route 17, 18 or 75 and when or where you have forgotten to tag-on or -off.

Sure, you tag off before you're going to use the bus, but not when going from the green line to the red in the city centre.

In any case, none of this applies given the poster was talking about only using Luas via the city centre.

goingnowhere · 21-01-2012 9:42pm

The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off.

If I buy a single ticket from Cobh to Derry and change at Cork, Heuston, Connolly and Belfast Central, its still a single journey.

AlekSmart · 21-01-2012 10:37pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off.

If I buy a single ticket from Cobh to Derry and change at Cork, Heuston, Connolly and Belfast Central, its still a single journey.

My opinion on the Dundrum-Heuston journey was based on the Cash-Fare situation rather than LeapCard.

The TfL system now incorporates Pink Validators which users are expected to use when transferring between lines/trains at selected locations.

The sole purpose of the Pink Validator is to detect and record the actual connection used and the determination of a fare from this.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14871.aspx

monument · 22-01-2012 12:15am

goingnowhere wrote: »

The system is intelligent and considers a red line to green line trip where there is a tag on/off at Abbey Street/St Stephen's Green as a single journey.

Similar situations occur in London where you have to exit the underground and then pass through barriers again to get to the next train.

If you don't believe me, try it both ways. But don't complain when you get ripped off

Yes, with the Underground you tag off to pass the barrier -- that's why you tag off!

Is it not also the case with the Underground you also can pass from line to line without passing any barrier or tagging off? I've done it more than a few times.

AlekSmart wrote: »

My opinion on the Dundrum-Heuston journey was based on the Cash-Fare situation rather than LeapCard.

It may be wrong, but luas.ie says you only need one paper ticket to travel Dundrum-Heuston.

foggy_lad · 22-01-2012 2:19am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Correct and right,incredibly enough,in cash-fare terms the two Luas lines are totally seperate entities with equally seperate Fare-Zone specifics......and people wonder at why we can't integrate public -transport modes..:rolleyes:

Strangely enough Luas and Veolia seem to be the only transport operators who have grasped and nourished the whole leap card concept!

They have turned all their validators into leap card validators removing any and all Luas smart card logos and every door on every tram has a large sticker reminding you to tag off or asking have you tagged on depending which side you look from.

They appear to be well in tune with the whole "progress is good for us and our passengers as well as for the country" idea which is sadly lacking in all other Irish state transport operators as well as all state departments!

I would not be surprised if the Luas website information on Leap card was more comprehensive and easier to read and understand than the leap website!

Victor · 22-01-2012 4:04am

monument wrote: »

It may be wrong, but luas.ie says you only need one paper ticket to travel Dundrum-Heuston.

Correct. But with a Luas or Leap card, you need to treat it as two legs of one journey.

SerialComplaint · 22-01-2012 1:20pm

The Luas guys tell me that "A credit card cannot be used twice within a 7 day period" for fraud protection reasons. This is a real barrier for legitimate customers.

I brought the family into town last Saturday, and used my credit card to buy tickets for the family, while using my own Leap card. On Monday, my Leap balance was low, so I needed to top up - but my credit card was declined, with no explanation why. I had to get onto the customer services folk to find out why it was declined.

This seems like a very restrictive limitation to me, and is creating a barrier for legitimate customers.

BenShermin · 22-01-2012 3:37pm

monument wrote: »

Is it not also the case with the Underground you also can pass from line to line without passing any barrier or tagging off? I've done it more than a few times. .

Yes, normally this is the case, however there are a few exceptions, for example, if you're changing from a Piccadilly Line tube to a Circle Line tube at Hammersmith Station you have to exit the barriers at the "Piccadilly" side then cross the road and walk to the "Circle" side. Even though you have to tag on/off twice when changing tubes at Hammersmith the Oyster system recognises it as one journey.

monument · 22-01-2012 3:40pm

BenShermin wrote: »

Yes, normally this is the case, however there are a few exceptions, for example, if you're changing from a Piccadilly Line tube to a Circle Line tube at Hammersmith Station you have to exit the barriers at the "Piccadilly" side then cross the road and walk to the "Circle" side. Even though you have to tag on/off twice when changing tubes at Hammersmith the Oyster system recognises it as one journey.

Any need to tag off is, however, created by the barriers, not the walking distance etc.

foggy_lad · 22-01-2012 7:56pm

SerialComplaint wrote: »

The Luas guys tell me that "A credit card cannot be used twice within a 7 day period" for fraud protection reasons. This is a real barrier for legitimate customers.

I brought the family into town last Saturday, and used my credit card to buy tickets for the family, while using my own Leap card. On Monday, my Leap balance was low, so I needed to top up - but my credit card was declined, with no explanation why. I had to get onto the customer services folk to find out why it was declined.

This seems like a very restrictive limitation to me, and is creating a barrier for legitimate customers.

Only in Ireland!

KD345 · 22-01-2012 11:28pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Strangely enough Luas and Veolia seem to be the only transport operators who have grasped and nourished the whole leap card concept!

They have turned all their validators into leap card validators removing any and all Luas smart card logos and every door on every tram has a large sticker reminding you to tag off or asking have you tagged on depending which side you look from.

They appear to be well in tune with the whole "progress is good for us and our passengers as well as for the country" idea which is sadly lacking in all other Irish state transport operators as well as all state departments!

To be fair the same stickers have been placed over the validators of every bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. There is no requirement to remind passengers to tag off on the bus, so those other type of stickers are not necessary. Most buses also contain full sized posters advertising Leap.

Dublin Bus also have a similar flashing ad box on their homepage "leap forward in commuting". To be honest, I find the information on the Dublin Bus page fare more informative than that of Luas.

foggy_lad · 22-01-2012 11:52pm

KD345 wrote: »

To be fair the same stickers have been placed over the validators of every bus in the Dublin Bus fleet. There is no requirement to remind passengers to tag off on the bus, so those other type of stickers are not necessary. Most buses also contain full sized posters advertising Leap.

Dublin Bus also have a similar flashing ad box on their homepage "leap forward in commuting". To be honest, I find the information on the Dublin Bus page fare more informative than that of Luas.

How easy is it to use a leap card on Dublin Bus compared to Luas if you do not require the maximum fare? Luas does not have the same trouble as Dublin Bus with the card because they are a far more progressive company and see the benefits of zonal fares instead of the stage fare system that no longer exists on Dublin Bus but which they still insist on using. Only in Ireland would such incompetence be tolerated! in other less developed countries people have been jailed for much less!

KD345 · 22-01-2012 11:57pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

How easy is it to use a leap card on Dublin Bus compared to Luas if you do not require the maximum fare? Luas does not have the same trouble as Dublin Bus with the card because they are a far more progressive company and see the benefits of zonal fares instead of the stage fare system that no longer exists on Dublin Bus but which they still insist on using. Only in Ireland would such incompetence be tolerated! in other less developed countries people have been jailed for much less!

I was only pointing out that the Dublin Bus customer stickers, adverts and web information was on the same level as Luas.

As for the fare system, I don't see the point in bashing Dublin Bus. Blame the NTA. They funded this Leap Card and also control how every fare is charged.

bk · 23-01-2012 12:19am

Passing Dublin Bus office on O'Connell St, I notice that they have the smallest leap card on sale here sticker in the window that you can imagine.

Pretty embarrassing. You would think they would have large posters and displays promoting LEAP card in the window.

goingnowhere · 23-01-2012 1:28am

It has sold more Leap cards than any other location

bk · 23-01-2012 1:30am

goingnowhere wrote: »

It has sold more Leap cards than any other location

Exactly and I'm sure it would sell even more if it bothered to advertise it.

Also you would think it would make sense for them to have LEAP Ticket Vending Machiens for purshasing and topping up leap cards there?

foggy_lad · 23-01-2012 1:40am

goingnowhere wrote: »

It has sold more Leap cards than any other location

Because people go into the shops named on the website only to be told they are not selling the cards yet or have had no training in selling or topping them up?

foggy_lad · 23-01-2012 1:41am

bk wrote: »

Exactly and I'm sure it would sell even more if it bothered to advertise it.

Also you would think it would make sense for them to have LEAP Ticket Vending Machiens for purshasing and topping up leap cards there?

They have plenty of room outside the window to put a few leap vending machines but that might require union approval.

AlekSmart · 23-01-2012 7:18am

foggy_lad wrote: »

They have plenty of room outside the window to put a few leap vending machines but that might require union approval.

Nope Foggy_Lad,lets do the Time_Warp again.........However it WOULD require planning permission from the relevant authority....;) (Think St Stephens Green North) :eek:

AlekSmart · 23-01-2012 7:23am

bk wrote: »

Exactly and I'm sure it would sell even more if it bothered to advertise it.

Also you would think it would make sense for them to have LEAP Ticket Vending Machiens for purshasing and topping up leap cards there?

I rather zuspect that for LeapCard purposes,59 O Connell St would be simply another LeapCard "Agent".

It would,however,therefore be in competition with it's own T90,Rambler and other Pre-Paid products so there could well be a bit of a commercial dilemma here....

However,to me,it all points in the direction of a very rushed Introduction of the Leap product without really having attended to the myriad of background "stuff" in advance.

robd · 23-01-2012 3:27pm

SerialComplaint wrote: »

The Luas guys tell me that "A credit card cannot be used twice within a 7 day period" for fraud protection reasons. This is a real barrier for legitimate customers.

I brought the family into town last Saturday, and used my credit card to buy tickets for the family, while using my own Leap card. On Monday, my Leap balance was low, so I needed to top up - but my credit card was declined, with no explanation why. I had to get onto the customer services folk to find out why it was declined.

This seems like a very restrictive limitation to me, and is creating a barrier for legitimate customers.

Pretty standard fraud protection policy. Most people have at least 2 cards (credit card, debit card) and also cash. Most people won't need to topup more than once in a week. Thus it is only a minor inconvenience.

Your problem is what's known as an edge case.

Vendors don't advertise fraud protection rules for obvious reasons.

el flaco · 23-01-2012 4:15pm

If you were to tag on to the Luas but not tag off and then go for a DART a few mins later, would the tag on at the train station cause any confusion to the card/system? i.e. be read as a tag off. I'm assuming the answer would be 'no' but still wouldn't be surprised if the card exploded or something.

If the tag on for the Luas is deducting, say, €2 from your balance and returning €0.00 for a tag off, I'm thinking there's probably no necessity to even bother in that situation..? Or would the initial €2 charge be bumped up to €2.50 because the system thinks you're probably riding around Dublin for a couple of quid?

Victor · 23-01-2012 4:46pm

el flaco wrote: »

If you were to tag on to the Luas but not tag off and then go for a DART a few mins later, would the tag on at the train station cause any confusion to the card/system? i.e. be read as a tag off. I'm assuming the answer would be 'no' but still wouldn't be surprised if the card exploded or something.

I suspect the opposite.

If you tag-on at say Four Courts, go to Connolly, get DART to Clontarf Road, you can't legitimately then make a continuation of the previous Luas journey.

bk · 23-01-2012 5:04pm

When you tag-on the LUAS, the maximum fare is deducted.

You then get money back when you tag-off, if the journey is less then the maximum fare. If you forget to tag-off, then tagging-on at DART or bus is considered a new separate fare.

Unfortunately if you change your mind after tagging-on at the LUAS and tag-off at the same station, you won't get your full fare back, instead you will just be tagged off and be charged the one zone fare.

DART on the other hand, if you tag on and then tag off at the same station soon after (change your mind, DART, delayed, etc.) then you get the full fare back. I think the LUAS should work the same way. Tag-on and tag-off at the same station in say 10 minutes.

Niles · 23-01-2012 5:17pm

Can anyone explain this? On tagging off the Luas my card was credited 70c, yet according to the balance reading I was only credited 69c (went from €7.75 to €8.44). Not begrudging the 1c but just curious...

Sequence Source Transaction Type Date Time Amount Balance

7 Luas Travel Credit Deduction 21/01/2012 4:32 PM €-2.15 €7.75
8 Luas Travel Credit Returned 21/01/2012 4:50 PM €0.70 €8.44

blubloblu · 23-01-2012 5:22pm

Niles wrote: »

Can anyone explain this? On tagging off the Luas my card was credited 70c, yet according to the balance reading I was only credited 69c (went from €7.75 to €8.44). Not begrudging the 1c but just curious...

They failed programming 101. It should balance itself out though.

el flaco · 23-01-2012 5:41pm

bk wrote: »

When you tag-on the LUAS, the maximum fare is deducted.

You then get money back when you tag-off, if the journey is less then the maximum fare. If you forget to tag-off, then tagging-on at DART or bus is considered a new separate fare.

Unfortunately if you change your mind after tagging-on at the LUAS and tag-off at the same station, you won't get your full fare back, instead you will just be tagged off and be charged the one zone fare.

DART on the other hand, if you tag on and then tag off at the same station soon after (change your mind, DART, delayed, etc.) then you get the full fare back. I think the LUAS should work the same way. Tag-on and tag-off at the same station in say 10 minutes.

Cool, thanks.

The validator wasn't accepting my card, it seemed like it didn't even know there was a card there. Then it started making that farting noise. I gave up after a few attempts and just tagged off at the destination to see if it had actually worked. It didn't so it just tagged me on but amounted to my usual fare anyway so all was right with the universe again. That had me thinking there's probably no need to tag off if making the reverse journey as when I get there I will just be credited €0.00, and I'd probably have to fight through a see of people to get to the machine.

markpb · 23-01-2012 6:15pm

el flaco wrote: »

The validator wasn't accepting my card, it seemed like it didn't even know there was a card there.

Was your card in your wallet, were there other smartcards in your wallet, was the card close to the centre of the validator and held there for a second?

SerialComplaint · 23-01-2012 10:42pm

robd wrote: »

Pretty standard fraud protection policy. Most people have at least 2 cards (credit card, debit card) and also cash. Most people won't need to topup more than once in a week. Thus it is only a minor inconvenience.

Your problem is what's known as an edge case.

Vendors don't advertise fraud protection rules for obvious reasons.

Standard policy? What other retail outlets have similar policies? I haven't experienced these credit card declines from anyone else - only from Luas.

The days of having two or three credit cars have gone for most people. Most people are on a financial edge now. For me, it meant having to leave the station, find an ATM, withdraw cash and then top up using the cash - no way to treat a good customer.

Given that they have chip-and-pin, it is crazy for them to reject small transactions in this way.

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Comments