Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 7:21pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why is he a "genuine" republican ? Because he's been involved in the violence and bombing ?

Anyone who is OK with orchestrating the murder of innocent Irishmen is not a "republican".

This farce of smearing and writing off valid objections as a "smear campaign" was tiresome when Norris apologists spouted it, and it's still tiresome.

That said, at least McGuinness donating €300,000 to the party might prevent their members engaging in "fundraising" activities.

What do you mean by "fundraising activities" Liam?

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 7:24pm

Whatever Martin has used that phrase for in the past.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 7:28pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Whatever Martin has used that phrase for in the past.

Perhaps you could enlighten me? If I didn't know better the "" almost made it look like there was something untoward about whatever fund raising SF do. But I'm sure you wouldn't accuse SF of illegal activities without any proof or anything would you? Perhaps you should take greater care in future in order to avoid giving off that undoubtedly false impression?

anymore · 17-09-2011 7:29pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

What do you mean by "fundraising activities" Liam?

Does it not mean the raising of funds, i.e money.

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 7:32pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why is he a "genuine" republican ? Because he's been involved in the violence and bombing ?

Anyone who is OK with orchestrating the murder of innocent Irishmen is not a "republican".

This farce of smearing and writing off valid objections as a "smear campaign" was tiresome when Norris apologists spouted it, and it's still tiresome.

That said, at least McGuinness donating €300,000 to the party might prevent their members engaging in "fundraising" activities.

there you go again using my words to make assumptions. No he's a genuine Republican in the sense that he is actually progressively working toward a 32 county Ireland.
Alas I am not a Norris apologist so pull the other one. Dragging up something that was ignored in the years since it happened, I'm all for demons in the closet coming out but that was tactical and nobody can deny it.
Church carpark collections, Easter lillys and the likes? I doubt it.;)

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 7:34pm

I didn't suggest any such thing - I put the word in quotes because MacGuinness & Co have had a different definition to me in the past.

So I used the quotes in the same way as I would use them around the word "republican"

If MacGuinness has used the phrase in the past to excuse and condone illegal activities then that's not my fault or problem - it's his.

That said, you're obviously over-sensitive due to his past abuse of language, since you didn't object to someone using quotes around "donate" earlier.

Guess I'm being singled out again - sigh....

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 7:42pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't suggest any such thing - I put the word in quotes because MacGuinness & Co have had a different definition to me in the past.

So I used the quotes in the same way as I would use them around the word "republican"

If MacGuinness has used the phrase in the past to excuse and condone illegal activities then that's not my fault or problem - it's his.

That said, you're obviously over-sensitive due to his past abuse of language, since you didn't object to someone using quotes around "donate" earlier.

Guess I'm being singled out again - sigh....

I don't think you are being singled out, you nitpick through peoples posts and use things quotation marks to delegitimise peoples posts in return and it mildly irritates people.

Its a good thing martin can leave his past in the past, accept the situation given to him by good friday and move on towards a united Ireland as president (hopefully). I wish others were so progressive.

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 7:44pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't suggest any such thing - I put the word in quotes because MacGuinness & Co have had a different definition to me in the past.

So I used the quotes in the same way as I would use them around the word "republican"

If MacGuinness has used the phrase in the past to excuse and condone illegal activities then that's not my fault or problem - it's his.

That said, you're obviously over-sensitive due to his past abuse of language, since you didn't object to someone using quotes around "donate" earlier.

Guess I'm being singled out again - sigh....

I don't think you are being singled out, you nitpick through peoples posts and use things quotation marks to delegitimise peoples posts in return and it mildly irritates people.

Its a good thing martin can leave his past in the past, accept the situation given to him by good friday and move on towards a united Ireland as president (hopefully). I wish others were so progressive.

You might have a point had you not used the phrase "genuine" republican earlier to give off the false impression that others who never engaged in violence were less genuine.

And WT had no objection to you saying "donate" in quotes, probably because you are a fellow supporter.

anymore · 17-09-2011 7:48pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I don't think you are being singled out, you nitpick through peoples posts and use things quotation marks to delegitimise peoples posts in return and it mildly irritates people.

Its a good thing martin can leave his past in the past, accept the situation given to him by good friday and move on towards a united Ireland as president (hopefully). I wish others were so progressive.

Regretfully not all can leave the past and take up Ministerial positions - some are buried in the past .

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 7:49pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You might have a point had you not used the phrase "genuine" republican earlier to give off the false impression that others who never engaged in violence were less genuine.

so you did presume I meant violence? il say it again to you, he and his party are the only people genuinely working towards a united Ireland, that means a lot to me. Fianna fail claim to be republican but thats for another thread. Where did I mention violence? I don't assume you are a Fine Gaeler just because some things you say can vaguely be interprated that way so don't assume im an IRA sympathiser. Got it?

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 7:56pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You might have a point had you not used the phrase "genuine" republican earlier to give off the false impression that others who never engaged in violence were less genuine.

so you did presume I meant violence? il say it again to you, he and his party are the only people genuinely working towards a united Ireland, that means a lot to me. Fianna fail claim to be republican but thats for another thread. Where did I mention violence? I don't assume you are a Fine Gaeler just because some things you say can vaguely be interprated that way so don't assume im an IRA sympathiser. Got it?

Fair enough. Others who didn't OK the murder of Irishmen were working towards it too, though, and in my mind are FAR more genuine as a result.

So I'll accept that there's an element of projection in the distinction - that said, you were at least partially guilty of what you accused me of, since that phrasing of "genuine" - while maybe not condoning murder - is certainly designed to dismiss others who don't conform to your own personal definition of "genuine", and is therefore just as contentious as anything that I posted.

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 7:57pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And WT had no objection to you saying "donate" in quotes, probably because you are a fellow supporter.

I used donate to be mildly humourous (at least for myself) because of corse donate is usually what you say when you contribute to a charity. quit the nitpicking, only yesterday i caught you out complaining to a user for something you say yourself

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 8:01pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Fair enough. Others who didn't OK the murder of Irishmen were working towards it too, though, and in my mind are FAR more genuine as a result.

So I'll accept that there's an element of projection in the distinction - that said, you were at least partially guilty of what you accused me of, since that phrasing of "genuine" - while maybe not condoning murder - is certainly designed to dismiss others who don't conform to your own personal definition of "genuine", and is therefore just as contentious as anything that I posted.

They arent going for the Aras. You're probably right on that one but then again politics is a big game and you have to weed out who you believe is just saying what people want to hear and who is doing what they claim to and like I touched on I think Fianna Fail use "The Republican Party" as a tagline and thats the depth of their republicanism.

blinding · 17-09-2011 8:03pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Martin McGuinness is head and shoulders above the other candidates for the Presidency. Firstly he has vast experience in the political arena and has had the experience of meeting important political representatives from around the world.

The personal journey that Martin McGuinness has made in his life has been a great one and for whatever reason does not seem to be acknowledged by some !

Historically he can be compared favourably with Michael Collins and can carry Michael Collins spirit forward.

crucamim · 17-09-2011 8:05pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anyone who is OK with orchestrating the murder of innocent Irishmen is not a "republican".

Who gave you authority to adjudcate on who is, or is not, a republician? Where were you in August 1969?

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 8:09pm

Republicans view all their countrymen as equals.....

......it kinda undermines that if you're OK with murdering them.

Not an adjudication by me at all - just common sense really.

anymore · 17-09-2011 8:11pm

crucamim wrote: »

Who gave you authority to adjudcate on who is, or is not, a republician? Where were you in August 1969?

Presumably he was exercising his democratic right to voice his own opinion. I presume we have gone beyond the stage of having to keep our voices hushed and our opinions to ourselves ?
By the way I was alive in 1969 and can remember it well.

sparkling sea · 17-09-2011 8:34pm

blahfckingblah wrote: »

Its a good thing martin can leave his past in the past, accept the situation given to him by good friday and move on towards a united Ireland as president (hopefully). I wish others were so progressive.

Unfortunatly "Martin" needs to remember some of us republicans - that is people who come from the Republic of Ireland are happy with our country just the way it is - some of us don't want to change or add to our country to suit Martin McGuiness and his cronies.

And couldn't care less where anyone was in 1969 we've left the past in the past (just like "Martin" - the likes of say the Omagh bombings is more likely to spark fury in us.
If "Martin" had any thoughts for the Republic he'd realise we have enough debt and problems in our own country without us wanting to add his to it make the problems worse.

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 8:39pm

sparkling sea wrote: »

Unfortunatly "Martin" needs to remember some of us republicans - that is people who come from the Republic of Ireland are happy with our country just the way it is - some of us don't want to change or add to our country to suit Martin McGuiness and his cronies.

And couldn't care less where anyone was in 1969 we've left the past in the past (just like "Martin" - the likes of say the Omagh bombings is more likely to spark fury in us.
If "Martin" had any thoughts for the Republic he'd realise we have enough debt and problems in our own country without us wanting to add his to it make the problems worse.

"Martin" is his name

. Yip he sure does thats what referendums are for.
Martin is still his name and he doesn't have anything to do with the RIRA or Omagh and I never questioned anyones whereabouts in 1969, if you refer to the thread you will see that.
Hes still Martin and I don't think he will set out to create more debt, thats why we have the Dail and the Seanad.

Einhard · 17-09-2011 9:10pm

blinding wrote: »

The personal journey that Martin McGuinness has made in his life has been a great one and for whatever reason does not seem to be acknowledged by some !

This whole "personal journey" malarkey that surrounds Martin and others in the Republican journey irritates me. I've read in several posts that one of McGuinness' positive attributes is that he turned his back on paramilitary violence. Would that he had never engaged in the type of indiscriminate violence that the IRA subscribed to. How on earth is "he doesn't kill/aid in the killing of people anymore", a laudable characteristic, except in the most relativistic sense?

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 9:20pm

sparkling sea wrote: »

Unfortunatly "Martin" needs to remember some of us republicans - that is people who come from the Republic of Ireland are happy with our country just the way it is - some of us don't want to change or add to our country to suit Martin McGuiness and his cronies.

And couldn't care less where anyone was in 1969 we've left the past in the past (just like "Martin" - the likes of say the Omagh bombings is more likely to spark fury in us.
If "Martin" had any thoughts for the Republic he'd realise we have enough debt and problems in our own country without us wanting to add his to it make the problems worse.

How are you a republican if you dont want to unify the country?

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 9:23pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

How are you a republican if you dont want to unify the country?

re·pub·li·can/riˈpəblikən/

Noun: A person advocating or supporting republican government.
Adjective: (of a form of government, constitution, etc.) Belonging to or characteristic of a republic.

Mr.Micro · 17-09-2011 9:24pm

sparkling sea wrote: »

Unfortunatly "Martin" needs to remember some of us republicans - that is people who come from the Republic of Ireland are happy with our country just the way it is - some of us don't want to change or add to our country to suit Martin McGuiness and his cronies.

Well said. We are all enjoying the relative tranquility on both sides of the border since the GFA. The last thing we need is McGuiness using the office of President to promote the agenda of SF and or the IRA.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 9:25pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

re·pub·li·can/riˈpəblikən/

Noun: A person advocating or supporting republican government.
Adjective: (of a form of government, constitution, etc.) Belonging to or characteristic of a republic.

Be pedantic all you want, you know full well I was using the word republican in an Irish context.

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 9:28pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Be pedantic all you want, you know full well I was using the word republican in an Irish context.

I'm a republican (the true meaning, with no quotations) and I'm Irish.

I respect this republic. I want to see a true republic of equals where contacts and cronyism don't have more power than others.

The SF gang don't have a monopoly on definitions.

I can go back to putting quotation marks around the ones for which you guys have alternative definitions if you want, but you weren't happy then either.

Foghladh · 17-09-2011 9:33pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Be pedantic all you want, you know full well I was using the word republican in an Irish context.

To be fair I would have run with Rebublic: a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president or a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government

I don't view the Republic in any context other than that. Its a form of government. There's a view amongst some that somehow the nation as it consists with 26 counties is somehow incomplete as a Republic and that we need the inclusion of the other six to somehow validate us. I don't hold to that.

Wolfe Tone · 17-09-2011 9:34pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm a republican (the true meaning, with no quotations) and I'm Irish.

I respect this republic. I want to see a true republic of equals where contacts and cronyism don't have more power than others.

The SF gang don't have a monopoly on definitions.

I can go back to putting quotation marks around the ones for which you guys have alternative definitions if you want, but you weren't happy then either.

Liam, I cant be arsed with your petty pedantry, grow up. "Republican" in a broad Irish context means those who desire a 32 country republic based on the 1916 proclamation. Similar to how in an American context republican has a certain meaning. Cop on and try to engage constructively rather than bogging things down so ridiculously, its just childish.

Sunnyisland · 17-09-2011 9:36pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Well said. We are all enjoying the relative tranquility on both sides of the border since the GFA. The last thing we need is McGuiness using the office of President to promote the agenda of SF and or the IRA.

Was MMG not one of the architects of the GFA ? So without his involvement we wouldn't have it. And is not the president's role non political so no president can promote there political agendas ?

blahfckingblah · 17-09-2011 9:36pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm a republican (the true meaning, with no quotations) and I'm Irish.

I respect this republic. I want to see a true republic of equals where contacts and cronyism don't have more power than others.

The SF gang don't have a monopoly on definitions.

I can go back to putting quotation marks around the ones for which you guys have alternative definitions if you want, but you weren't happy then either.

Ah here, you know rightly what the term Irish Republican had been used to mean over the last x amount of years. what would you prefer we use?

Liam Byrne · 17-09-2011 9:38pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Liam, I cant be arsed with your petty pedantry, grow up. "Republican" in a broad Irish context means those who desire a 32 country republic based on the 1916 proclamation. Similar to how in an American context republican has a certain meaning. Cop on and try to engage constructively rather than bogging things down so ridiculously, its just childish.

Point taken, and the American model did spring to mind as another example of how the word has been bastardised.

I did let the use of "genuine" get the better of me earlier, as well as your own questioning of my highlighting that McGuinness has had a different definition of "fundraising" to mine, so if others will stop twisting words, then I'll stop pulling them up on it.

Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

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