Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower · 26-03-2012 12:18am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Yes. They often blatantly contradict each other with very little accountability by anyone in power for new legislation.

Except the Oireachtas.

wp_rathead · 26-03-2012 12:19am

Izzy Skint wrote: »

dvpower......I am a good, hard working, law abiding, family man....what has happened in this country over the past few years is an f***ing disgrace......history is going to be VERY unkind to our present "LEADERS" (joke!!)....who the hell do this bunch of overpaid, useless, spineless morons (I am refering to politicians in case there is any doubt!) think they are telling ME, MY WIFE AND MY KIDS that we have to dig even deeper and pay this tax to help pay others debts??...it's not my debt, it's not my kids debt, it's not the irish people's debt.....many have no more to give!!....what part of this do the government find so difficult to understand??....i do not have it to give, even if i did i would not pay it, i have paid enough.
There is billions of €'s that can be carved from spending...if anybody doubts this then take a look at how spending in social welfare, health, pensions + pay etc. exploded during the "boom" years....but they have only contracted by a tiny amount since we found ourselves €20b in the red every year....HELLO USELESS POLITICIANS!!!.....start cutting here....when ye have done this, and I mean really cut spending, then and only then will i consider paying this charge....maybe!...ha ha ha

individualism lives on

Biggins · 26-03-2012 12:19am

lugha wrote: »

...Will you personally return, if it can be calculated, the monies you received from that collected in stamp duty, given that it was er, “just wrong” that your received it in the first place, reserved as it should have been for local services?

Said genuinely, I don't understand the question.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:20am

phil1nj wrote: »

I seriously doubt that.

This tax is entirely just? But the Poll Tax wasn't? So you didn't pay it?
Therefore you broke the law? And now you are on here telling people to pay this tax/charge because it is the current law of the land? There's a particular whiff of BS and hypocrisy starting to permeate your posts but at least now I know that you are definitely a wind up merchant.

I'm telling people that the tax is just, goes entirely to local authority funding, will be more expensive when the tiered arrangements kick in, will incorporate an ability to pay element, and that simply saying that the thing is unjust doesn't actually make it so. The poll tax was unjust for very identifiable reasons - reasons that no-one can replicate for this tax.

No hypocrisy there.

M cebee · 26-03-2012 12:23am

i'm with the 80%
i aint payin
the peasants are revolting

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:23am

wprathead wrote: »

individualism lives on

Yep.

The Irish are mass proponents of NIMBY-syndrome and the push against this charge, a very small charge at that, is both further proof of this and only around because of it.

It's quite bizarre really. You've a group of people here who don't want to pay a €100 charge, who'll happily see the €160m pulled from the hospitals, police force, etc. instead and yet if they need these services, will then rant about how mismanaged and underfunded they are. Selfish, shortsighted ignorance at its finest.

Izzy Skint · 26-03-2012 12:24am

dvpower wrote: »

I'm equally pissed off at the incompetence, corruption and waste.
I just don't happen to share your view on the household charge issue (and probably other stuff too).

well, all i can say is with an attitude like that, this country is going to hit the wall within a few years...if not sooner!....this waste, corruption etc. can not go on if we want to save this little country....this is our chance to say ENOUGH, otherwise it's business as usual for our government.....our government need to put their own house in order first, and fast....oh, and standing up for it's own people would also be nice....what are the odds on that happening??........night all...

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:25am

M cebee wrote: »

i'm with the 80%
i aint payin
the peasants are revolting

The only certain thing, in such a case, is that the "peasants" remain "peasants", regardless of the outcome.

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:25am

MightyBouche wrote: »

Yep.

The Irish are mass proponents of NIMBY-syndrome and the push against this charge, a very small charge at that, is both further proof of this and only around because of it.

It's quite bizarre really. You've a group of people here who don't want to pay a €100 charge, who'll happily see the €160m pulled from the hospitals, police force, etc. instead and yet if they need these services, will then rant about how mismanaged and underfunded they are. Selfish, shortsighted ignorance at its finest.

*sigh*

It's a pre-cursor to a property tax that will cost people €1,500 or €2,000 a year or thereabouts. Depending on the value of your home.

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:26am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One little item you overlooked there. The incompetent fools are handing you over (or did in the past) €1700 per year tax free for each of your children.

This payment helps to keep our little island full of youth. If only all the youth of a generation didn't have to fly to Australia, that would be great!

Look at Germany...they have a career culture and many people don't have children. Those who do, often just have one. Compare this to the average Irish family. Career driven states = less children.

Oh and i'm just waiting for the idiot who makes the joke about contraception. Anyone? dvpower maybe? Yeah they tax those too.

dvpower · 26-03-2012 12:26am

Me wrote:

I'm equally pissed off at the incompetence, corruption and waste.

Izzy Skint wrote: »

well, all i can say is with an attitude like that, this country is going to hit the wall within a few years...if not sooner!

M'kay

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:27am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One little item you overlooked there. The incompetent fools are handing you over (or did in the past) €1700 per year tax free for each of your children.

Izzy Skint wrote: »

well, all i can say is with an attitude like that, this country is going to hit the wall within a few years...if not sooner!....this waste, corruption etc. can not go on if we want to save this little country....this is our chance to say ENOUGH, otherwise it's business as usual for our government.....our government need to put their own house in order first, and fast....oh, and standing up for it's own people would also be nice....what are the odds on that happening??........night all...

You avoided the above. I'm not surprised, seeing as it really doesn't suit your purposes.

Izzy Skint · 26-03-2012 12:27am

wprathead wrote: »

individualism lives on

what????.....there are thousands like me.....muppet

dvpower · 26-03-2012 12:28am

goz83 wrote: »

Oh and i'm just waiting for the idiot who makes the joke about contraception. Anyone? dvpower maybe? Yeah they tax those too.

Nah. Nothing springs to mind.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:28am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

*sigh*

It's a pre-cursor to a property tax that will cost people €1,500 or €2,000 a year or thereabouts. Depending on the value of your home.

or €300, or €600, if the Irish Times reports are accurate - but feel free to highlight the top end figures that wouldn't apply to most.

heyjude · 26-03-2012 12:32am

dvpower wrote: »

the revenue from the Household Charge is ringfenced for local authority funding, including paying staff wages, so you can rest assured about where your €100 - €150 will go.

You say that it is ring fenced so we can rest assured where revenue from the Household Charge will go, but The National Pension Reserve Fund was to quote their website "established in April 2001 to meet as much as possible of the costs of Ireland's social welfare and public service pensions from 2025 onwards", however then it says "Under the National Pensions Reserve Fund and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2009, the Commission is also required to make investments in credit institutions, as directed by the Minister for Finance where, having consulted the Governor of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator, he decides such direction as is required, in the public interest".

So initially when the National Pension Reserve Fund was set up in 2001 it was meant to meet the costs of pensions from 2025, but then the law was changed in 2009 and it was used for other purposes. See http://www.nprf.ie/home.html

As this proves, ringfencing means nothing, the government can move the goalposts anytime it likes. Wasn't Income Tax originally introduced to fund a war ? Governments can changes the rules, they have changed the rules and they will continue to change the rules. Ringfencing means nothing.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:32am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

*sigh*

It's a pre-cursor to a property tax that will cost people €1,500 or €2,000 a year or thereabouts. Depending on the value of your home.

You think that this little "movement" will stop that tax? It won't.

If only, if only I could just not pay any tax I didn't personally agree with. Oh how wonderful that would be. Unfortunately, here in reality, the world does not work that way.

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:32am

alastair wrote: »

or €300, or €600, if the Irish Times reports are accurate - but feel free to highlight the top end figures that wouldn't apply to most.

I'd imagine council tax figures in the UK would be a good benchmark to work from.

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:35am

MightyBouche wrote: »

You think that this little "movement" will stop that tax? It won't.

If only, if only I could just not pay any tax I didn't personally agree with. Oh how wonderful that would be. Unfortunately, here in reality, the world does not work that way.

I pay more than enough tax already. We've lived without this one for 100 years, we can live without it now.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:35am

Izzy Skint wrote: »

what????.....there are thousands like me.....muppet

Resorting to petty insults when you have no argument only serves to worsen the already terrible image that the "don't register, don't pay" people have in the eyes and minds of the average Irish person.

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:37am

MightyBouche wrote: »

Resorting to petty insults when you have no argument only serves to worsen the already terrible image that the "don't register, don't pay" people have in the eyes and minds of the average Irish person.

The 'average' Irish person seems to have made the decision not to pay this charge. So far anyway. So don't profess to speak for the average Irish person.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:37am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I pay more than enough tax already. We've lived without this one for 100 years, we can live without it now.

No, I'm sorry, you're delusional. We're in a situation now that we haven't been in, in the last 100 years. Different times containing different situations require different measures. If you think that you won't be paying more tax over the next few years, you are sorely mistaken.

With any hope, in future the taxes will just be taken at source so the petty and economically challenged can't stand in the way of the country's recovery.

mconigol · 26-03-2012 12:38am

Are you people still here?

Not getting dizzy yet?

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:39am

heyjude wrote: »

Ringfencing means nothing.

If your premis is that subsequent laws might change current ones, then, yep, ehh I guess. The reality is that the household charge will only last a year or two, and that there's sod all reason to believe that anyone will revisit the act before the next (and publicly debated) act for the subsequent property tax, is entered into law.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:40am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I'd imagine council tax figures in the UK would be a good benchmark to work from.

Why? As we all know, you get additional services for your UK rates.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:40am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

The 'average' Irish person seems to have made the decision not to pay this charge. So far anyway. So don't profess to speak for the average Irish person.

At, yet another sliver of delusion.

What you mean to say is that the average Irish house owner has made the decision not to pay yet. Average merely due to the numbers involved although I would imagine we'll see more than 50% will have paid by the deadline.

Average Irish house owner != average Irish person.

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:41am

MightyBouche wrote: »

the petty and economically challenged can't stand in the way of the country's recovery.

So delete your second account and stand out of the way. I am always suspicious when someone with only a few posts comes in so strongly supporting a particular persons view.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:41am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

I pay more than enough tax already. We've lived without this one for 100 years, we can live without it now.

We had rates until the 70's.

mickydoomsux · 26-03-2012 12:42am

goz83 wrote: »

This payment helps to keep our little island full of youth. If only all the youth of a generation didn't have to fly to Australia, that would be great!

Look at Germany...they have a career culture and many people don't have children. Those who do, often just have one. Compare this to the average Irish family. Career driven states = less children.

Oh and i'm just waiting for the idiot who makes the joke about contraception. Anyone? dvpower maybe? Yeah they tax those too.

Yeah, look at stupid Germany, the powerhouse economy of the EU that's bucking the recessionary trend and keeping us afloat. Why would we want to be anything like them?

Also it's been pretty much proven at this stage that most of the young people leaving the country are doing so by choice and the figures aren't really that high anyway. More populist twaddle.

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:43am

alastair wrote: »

We had rates until the 70's.

Yeah, we did, but our bins were collected too for those rates among a few other "services".

M cebee · 26-03-2012 12:43am

MightyBouche wrote: »

The only certain thing, in such a case, is that the "peasants" remain "peasants", regardless of the outcome.

is that you phil

wp_rathead · 26-03-2012 12:44am

Izzy Skint wrote: »

what????.....there are thousands like me.....muppet

don't think you grasp the concept "individualism"

look if we are to get up in arms over something its state of the mental health services, the lack of social workers being employed, no services for people under the care of state when they reach 18, cut backs in Homeless services, inhumane and over crowding conditions of prison etc.

but no, get on ye're high horse about paying 100 because it affects you directly.

now don't get me wrong, its sickening having to pay this charge- but in the grand scheme of things its far down the long list of "what the **** is wrong with this country"

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:45am

goz83 wrote: »

So delete your second account and stand out of the way. I am always suspicious when someone with only a few posts comes in so strongly supporting a particular persons view.

What? Stand out of the way? If you've read anything I've posted, you'd see that it's those opposing this charge that I believe to be standing in the way. I don't believe I've lent favour to anyone or their opinion in this thread.

bgrizzley · 26-03-2012 12:45am

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:46am

MightyBouche wrote: »

If you think that you won't be paying more tax over the next few years, you are sorely mistaken.

I won't be paying it nor will I be eligible for it, of that I can assure you.

MightyBouche wrote: »

With any hope, in future the taxes will just be taken at source so the petty and economically challenged can't stand in the way of the country's recovery.

As I have said before, I have no problem paying additional taxes to aid with the country's recovery. Provided that it's coupled with sensible curtailment of any bloated areas of public and civil spending.

I also have a major problem with tax on a personal property which increases year on year as the government see fit. Such a tax means I will more than likely never purchase a property in this country. Mind you, if it's a tax that actually shows the people that pay it some kind of tangible returns then maybe. Although the way funds are managed at a public level here make me think that the desire to purchase a home in Ireland, for me anyway, will dissipate very quickly with the introduction of further such taxes.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:47am

wprathead wrote: »

don't think you grasp the concept "individualism"

look if we are to get up in arms over something its state of the mental health services, the lack of social workers being employed, no services for people under the care of state when they reach 18, cut backs in Homeless services, inhumane and over crowding conditions of prison etc.

but no, get on ye're high horse about paying 100 because it affects you directly.

now don't get me wrong, its sickening having to pay this charge- but in the grand scheme of things its far down the long list of "what the **** is wrong with this country"

The non-payment of this only serves to worsen your above mentioned issues also, a fact the NIMBY or self-serving (or individualist, as you put it) crowd seem to want to ignore...until they need said services, of course.

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:47am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Also it's been pretty much proven at this stage that most of the young people leaving the country are doing so by choice

It has? Proven where? Do you consider "force" to be a run out of the country with a hand gun held to ones head? Yes, people indeed went by choice. But most made the "choice" because they had no prospect of work and/or no belief that the situation would change in the medium term. Or maybe people who like to work for a living and contribute their fair and just share should just stay on the dole queue and hope enda and phil and the rest of the gang sort out the mess created by the other corrupt sh1tes.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:48am

goz83 wrote: »

Yeah, we did, but our bins were collected too for those rates among a few other "services".

Unlike now, when they provide no services, you mean? Local authorities could afford to provide bin collections without charge when they had proper funding - like rates. Copping out of your property tax obligations won't do anything to help provision of local services.

alastair · 26-03-2012 12:50am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

As I have said before, I have no problem paying additional taxes to aid with the country's recovery. Provided that it's coupled with sensible curtailment of any bloated areas of public and civil spending.

:rolleyes:

I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today.

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 12:51am

goz83 wrote: »

It has? Proven where? Do you consider "force" to be a run out of the country with a hand gun held to ones head? Yes, people indeed went by choice. But most made the "choice" because they had no prospect of work and/or no belief that the situation would change in the medium term. Or maybe people who like to work for a living and contribute their fair and just share should just stay on the dole queue and hope enda and phil and the rest of the gang sort out the mess created by the other corrupt sh1tes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0317/breaking1.html

I'm sure you'll twist that to suit your own agenda, however it certainly backs up what Michael Noonan said not so long ago. At the moment, emigration from Ireland certainly is a lifestyle choice.

mickydoomsux · 26-03-2012 12:53am

goz83 wrote: »

It has? Proven where?

An Ipsos MRBI poll conducted for the Irish Times recently addressed the issue.

Link.

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:55am

alastair wrote: »

Unlike now, when they provide no services, you mean? Local authorities could afford to provide bin collections without charge when they had proper funding - like rates. Copping out of your property tax obligations won't do anything to help provision of local services.

Any chance i can take €170 out of your bank account to pay a gambling debt I have? You can take €160 from your back pocket and put it back in, you'll only be €10 down. Or is that correct? Who's money was it?

BarackPyjama · 26-03-2012 12:55am

alastair wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I will gladly pay you Tuesday, for a hamburger today.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, or how about the government maybe, just maybe, gets its own house in order along with a major look at creating efficiencies in the public sector today... and I'll advocate that everyone pay their subsidy on Tuesday?

goz83 · 26-03-2012 12:58am

MightyBouche wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0317/breaking1.html

I'm sure you'll twist that to suit your own agenda, however it certainly backs up what Michael Noonan said not so long ago. At the moment, emigration from Ireland certainly is a lifestyle choice.

Thats not proof. That's a biased opinion, just like yours and you could say mine too. We can all find links to suit our purposes. Take it from the president:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/President-Higgins-honors-Irish-emigrants-forced-to-leave-in-St-Patricks-Day-message-142606246.html

mickydoomsux · 26-03-2012 1:00am

goz83 wrote: »

Thats not proof. That's a biased opinion, just like yours and you could say mine too. We can all find links to suit our purposes. Take it from the president:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/President-Higgins-honors-Irish-emigrants-forced-to-leave-in-St-Patricks-Day-message-142606246.html

You don't understand what a poll is.

Nice irrelevant link.

lugha · 26-03-2012 1:01am

Biggins wrote: »

Said genuinely, I don't understand the question.

The logical of your argument that individuals have already paid local services charges via stamp duty and therefore should not pay it again surely implies that monies collected in stamp duty should be, and should have been, used to fund this services. Alas, this money (and a far load of it there was) is already spent, with only a tiny fraction been spent on local services. But the rest was returned to or spent on the people on the likes of lower taxes, better social welfare etc.

Thus the government cannot use this money to fund local services because it is gone, with sizable chunks of it been given to you (and me and many others). So if you want to argue that you shouldn’t be taxed for the same think twice, surely you should return the money that was “wrongly” given to you as lower taxes or whatever, and let that be spent that on local services?

Or you could take the more practical ”melting pot” approach with the view that a certain amount of revenue must be raised from the people and not be unduly concerned with matching particular revenue raising with particular spending.

The people did pay huge amounts in stamp duty over the year but they got this back in one form or another. But one of the ways was not to secure future local services funding. Hence the illusion that you are paying it twice. You are not paying twice. You paid once and the money was used for something else but something that was of benefit to you so now you must pay “again”.

It would be like ordering a sandwich and a pint, handing over €5 to pay for the pint but the barman taking for the sandwich instead, and you insisting you shouldn’t have to pay twice for the pint!

(BTW, were you not also paying in twice when it was coming from the exchequer, that you pay to, given that you were still paying off your stamp duty to the bank?)

MightyBouche · 26-03-2012 1:01am

goz83 wrote: »

Thats not proof. That's a biased opinion, just like yours and you could say mine too. We can all find links to suit our purposes. Take it from the president:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/President-Higgins-honors-Irish-emigrants-forced-to-leave-in-St-Patricks-Day-message-142606246.html

Er, no. They're not the same at all.

dxhound2005 · 26-03-2012 1:03am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Yeah, or how about the government maybe, just maybe, gets its own house in order along with a major look at creating efficiencies in the public sector today... and I'll advocate that everyone pay their subsidy on Tuesday?

Slightly old news from December but it outlines the cuts proposed for this year and the plan to have overall PS wages 20% less by 2015 compared to 2008

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1205/budget3-business.html

goz83 · 26-03-2012 1:03am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You don't understand what a poll is.

Nice irrelevant link.

Not a poll i would trust, not when I know so many who were forced to move country because of reasons i stated above. I don't trust those figures, but ether way, they won't be paying the house hold charge

mickydoomsux · 26-03-2012 1:06am

goz83 wrote: »

Not a poll i would trust, not when I know so many who were forced to move country because of reasons i stated above. I don't trust those figures, but ether way, they won't be paying the house hold charge

Yes, anecdotal evidence from one incredibly biased person surely tops that poll.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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