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Doctor refused to treat her depressed patient.
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Ok I accept that it is a private business and they can see who they want or don't want but being a doctor is a little different than being say a plumber there should be ethics involved and general decency especially when dealing with someone with a long term illness like the depression my friend has.JuliusCaesar wrote: »A GPs practice is a private business. They can see patients from wherever they like. The only geographical boundaries are to do with public health services.
If the problem is with the manager, talk with the doctor; if the problem is with the doctor, talk with her and try to sort it out. Only after that complain at a higher level.
This is not difficult to solve, but will take some determination.
An explanation and not an excuse like geographic reasons in my opinion should be given also either an acceptance by the surgery that they are either backing up the manager and agree that she was correct in REFUSING to give my friend an appointment at all OR explaining that maybe the manager was out of line and did not act ethically or respect the surgeries duty of care and maybe get the manager to apologise to friend for the manner in which she treated her and the distress she caused. They might be some solutions in my opinion.0 -
... I can assure you there is no problems with the doctor herself.
But you can't. Unless you are the patient. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but you're hearing this second hand. What's the old saying there's three side's to every story. Yours, theirs and the true story.
I would suspect this is NOT a solo run by the practice manager, and is down to appointment/time taken management.
Is your friend looking for counselling services that the practice is not designed to provide?0 -
The surgery provides counselling and my friend frequently attends the manager is also aware of this.But you can't. Unless you are the patient. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but you're hearing this second hand. What's the old saying there's three side's to every story. Yours, theirs and the true story.
I would suspect this is NOT a solo run by the practice manager, and is down to appointment/time taken management.
Is your friend looking for counselling services that the practice is not designed to provide?
Ok I accept I was not there and don't know the ins and outs fully but let's say just for a moment that my friend is telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth and was treated the way I have described if it really happened as I have described here what then ? Is it correct or fair ?0 -
Is it correct or fair ?
It's possible the doctor is at the limits of her ability to deal effectively with your friend, but of course they should have referred your friend onwards. Although, that would be potentially very expensive.
If they have given no reason and are simply ignoring your friend and giving a spurious excuse then that is not fair. It's the easy way out.
The question is what's now best for your friend? Is it to attempt to force access to a reluctant (I'm assuming this is not a solo run by the PM) doctor. Or should you try to facilitate her going to another, closer doctor where her case notes can be forwarded.
I'm not all too sure it's a healthy thing for her to be so reliant on one particular doctor.0 -
I left a practice over similar issues with the practice manager. She behaved like the Guardian of the Gate - you simply could not speak to, leave a message for, or make an appointment with the doctor and she was rude, unhelpful, unemphatic and difficult to deal with on the phone.
The doctor in question "seemed" lovely. But you know what? It was a private practice, the manager was employed by the doctor - so her behaviour was authorised. Id made numerous comments and complaints over the years. Eventually, 2 hours after the doctor prescribed meds that caused my husband to become extremely ill and the practice manager refused to entertain me on the phone, we ended up in A&E, I voted with my feet and simply left the practice. I didnt even bother to complain afterwards, whats the point? It was a top down problem and had been ongoing for years. I also told plenty of people the reason why I left and it turned out that many of them had similar issues with the practice and moved on also.0 -
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The concern is with regards to medication mainly if a new doctor has a different opinion with regards to depression they can cut down or stop medication which can be a problem as her current doctor is of the opinion that a mix of counselling and medication is what works and it suits my friend. It's not unheard of that doctors tell people go for a walk or meet your friends for coffee etc and you will feel better. Not every doctor has the same opinion with regards to clinical depression hence the high suicide rate in this country in my opinion.
QUOTE=smcgiff;93002647]It's possible the doctor is at the limits of her aitthe lity to deal effectively with your friend, but of course they should have referred your friend onwards. Although, that would be potentially very expensive.
If they have given no reason and are simply ignoring your friend and giving a spurious excuse then that is not fair. It's the easy way out.
The question is what's now best for your friend? Is it to attempt to force access to a reluctant (I'm assuming this is not a solo run by the PM) doctor. Or should you try to facilitate her going to another, closer doctor where her case notes can be forwarded.
I'm not all too sure it's a healthy thing for her to be so reliant on one particular doctor.[/QUOTE]0 -
The concern is with regards to medication mainly if a new doctor has a different opinion with regards to depression they can cut down or stop medication which can be a problem as her current doctor is of the opinion that a mix of counselling and medication is what works and it suits my friend.
If that works for her then she needs to find (opinion shop sounds wrong) a doctor that agrees with her.0 -
Big Dave; bless you for your caring. May I share with you two experiences with admin staff at practices recently?
In one case reception staff actually countermanded my GPs instructions to the extent of refusing to give out an urgent prescription to the person collecting it for me; saying I had to attend the surgery when the dr had spoken with me on the phone and issued the meds as I was not up to the long drive. I am over 70 and disabled.
I wrote to the GP marking the envelope PERSONAL CONFIDENTIAL and she had had no idea of the actions of her staff. Told me they were not clinically trained! And made elaborate arrangements as to how I could access her direct without going through reception.
The other instance was similar. Clerical staff acting without the knowledge or permission of the doctor and in both instances causing suffering and in one case danger.
I spent most of my life in the UK and we were all used to the dragon receptionists there who guarded the drs from their patients.
It seems that the two parts, clinical and admin have separated out and in both cases for me the dr had no idea of and had certainly not authorised the actions of her staff. And she made no attempt to face up to her staff.It sounds like this in your friends case and I would strongly urge a letter, non confrontational. marked CONFIDENTIAL and PERSONAL to the GP concerned as your friend deserves and needs an explanation here.
According to the Patients Charter....
It sounds as if the manager acted beyond her remit and now will not admit that. The dr can change that. As others have said, the reason given ie a change of address, is not valid.
I would try that before going down the complaint lane. For the peace of mind of your friend. If nothing else it would help get her mind at ease re medication needs which matters greatly.
I say that re the complaint lane as I finally had to go that route myself and was dropped by the GP for doing so.
The complaint was upheld and an apology received; this was a dr in the same practice not my GP I have a medical card by the way. I tried several other practices to be refused and then HSE allocated me, to find GP giving reasons for not accepting me. I at present have 5 medical cards in my bag and am not totally sure who I am allegedly with.
It was not that I make excessive demands etc as I rarely see my GP . I have only one regular prescription need and will run out of that shortly.
And I am too old and too unwell to deal with any more hassle now. I really am!
Just not worrying any more and I have family who will help with meds if need be.
Thankful your friend has you to care. Try that letter though0 -
... I at present have 5 medical cards in my bag and am not totally sure who I am allegedly with...
Graces7,
Follow this link:
https://www.sspcrs.ie/portal/checker/pub/check
Type in the number(s) from your cards.
It will tell you which number(s) is/are a valid Medical Card number, when it will expire, the holder's date of birth, and which Dr the card is assigned to. The doctor is listed as a 5-digit number, not a name, but on the cards themselves the names and numbers are both listed so you can see which number refers to which doctor.
I would recommend that you destroy by cutting up any cards that you discover are invalid through this process - that way you can't actually hand an invalid card to a doctor/dentist/hospital/pharmacist by accident.
Also, if any number you have comes up as being valid, but the date of birth isn't yours, then contact the HSE because something's gone wrong somewhere.0 -
locum-motion wrote: »Graces7,
Follow this link:
https://www.sspcrs.ie/portal/checker/pub/check
Type in the number(s) from your cards.
It will tell you which number(s) is/are a valid Medical Card number, when it will expire, the holder's date of birth, and which Dr the card is assigned to. The doctor is listed as a 5-digit number, not a name, but on the cards themselves the names and numbers are both listed so you can see which number refers to which doctor.
I would recommend that you destroy by cutting up any cards that you discover are invalid through this process - that way you can't actually hand an invalid card to a doctor/dentist/hospital/pharmacist by accident.
Also, if any number you have comes up as being valid, but the date of birth isn't yours, then contact the HSE because something's gone wrong somewhere.
Thank you for this but just now I have no plans to go near any doctor! I am very unwell and very tired of being pushed around and if, heaven forbid, I have a fall and need to got to A and E, I plan to simply hand them the clutch of cards and suggest they sort it out... My main data of PPSN etc remain unchanged. Actually A and E at the hospital I have been to know me after two emergencies this year and never ask for my card and the pharmacy I use know me also.0 -
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God love you it seems you have got the brunt of this "medical Mafia" I hear people talking about and it is really unacceptable. The dragon receptionists seem to be merciless and it makes me wonder were this people ever sick or just not up to fighting their way to see a doctor that is getting paid to do a job ? They are nothing short of bullies and let's face it if you are asking to see a doctor you are probably not feeling great and then you have to contend with these people.Big Dave; bless you for your caring. May I share with you two experiences with admin staff at practices recently?
In one case reception staff actually countermanded my GPs instructions to the extent of refusing to give out an urgent prescription to the person collecting it for me; saying I had to attend the surgery when the dr had spoken with me on the phone and issued the meds as I was not up to the long drive. I am over 70 and disabled.
I wrote to the GP marking the envelope PERSONAL CONFIDENTIAL and she had had no idea of the actions of her staff. Told me they were not clinically trained! And made elaborate arrangements as to how I could access her direct without going through reception.
The other instance was similar. Clerical staff acting without the knowledge or permission of the doctor and in both instances causing suffering and in one case danger.
I spent most of my life in the UK and we were all used to the dragon receptionists there who guarded the drs from their patients.
It seems that the two parts, clinical and admin have separated out and in both cases for me the dr had no idea of and had certainly not authorised the actions of her staff. And she made no attempt to face up to her staff.It sounds like this in your friends case and I would strongly urge a letter, non confrontational. marked CONFIDENTIAL and PERSONAL to the GP concerned as your friend deserves and needs an explanation here.
According to the Patients Charter....
It sounds as if the manager acted beyond her remit and now will not admit that. The dr can change that. As others have said, the reason given ie a change of address, is not valid.
I would try that before going down the complaint lane. For the peace of mind of your friend. If nothing else it would help get her mind at ease re medication needs which matters greatly.
I say that re the complaint lane as I finally had to go that route myself and was dropped by the GP for doing so.
The complaint was upheld and an apology received; this was a dr in the same practice not my GP I have a medical card by the way. I tried several other practices to be refused and then HSE allocated me, to find GP giving reasons for not accepting me. I at present have 5 medical cards in my bag and am not totally sure who I am allegedly with.
It was not that I make excessive demands etc as I rarely see my GP . I have only one regular prescription need and will run out of that shortly.
And I am too old and too unwell to deal with any more hassle now. I really am!
Just not worrying any more and I have family who will help with meds if need be.
Thankful your friend has you to care. Try that letter though0 -
God love you it seems you have got the brunt of this "medical Mafia" I hear people talking about and it is really unacceptable. The dragon receptionists seem to be merciless and it makes me wonder were this people ever sick or just not up to fighting their way to see a doctor that is getting paid to do a job ? They are nothing short of bullies and let's face it if you are asking to see a doctor you are probably not feeling great and then you have to contend with these people.
Thanks.. I made a decision to stop involving now. Better things to do at my age....Just written to the GP I think I am registered with asking for a repeat prescription and referring him to my family overseas who have my Power of attorney and will make short work of him.;) I have little interest in involving and A and E were great to me when I had the fall etc.
I have to say though that this has only been an issue since I moved to Kerry. Elsewhere in Ireland I have had great GPs who respected my needs and limitations. One was a good friend to me the time I was there. So this is not me...I do also have the Chief Executive for primary care on email..
It is though all about communication; HSE have a great web site and complaint system; look at their web site.
http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/yourhealthservice/feedback/Complaints/HowTo/
And try that letter first as probably the dr has no idea what is going on. A the problem is depression it may well be prejudice on the part of the manager. I have ME and to many it does not exist so I get rubbished for this. I dont care any more but sympathise deeply with you on this.0 -
Davey, I am so grateful to you for this thread as it has helped me to come to terms with what has happened to me. THANK YOU...It seems that lay managers have taken on far too much and are involving in what should be between doctor and patient. It did surprise me how many here assumed there was more to this and that the dr maybe was justified. In my case I did nothing wrong.
I took advice carefully from expert sources; my complaint was not about a clinical matter but a piece of grossly unprofessional and inappropriate behaviour by a young dr on an emergency visit that could have had very far reaching bad effects on my life I did not even know her name or that she was in the same practice as my GP.
The complaint was upheld and an apology made and accepted by which time I had been dropped by my GP with no reason given which is against rules.
What is worse is that when I tried to register elsewhere there were huge problems. Word had clearly spread...
The letter shocked me and I was ill abed at the time. HSE give ten days for you to register elsewhere, then they allocate you to a dr. I tried but had no choice and could not take any more refusals from practices. So I let it ride.
The first allocation they made was to a dr 40 miles away who refused because of that. NB I am at least 15 miles from any town anyways!
Then HE in their office in Dublin, allocated me to the GP I had made the complaint about ie the practice who had dropped me.
Each time a medical card arrived and the warning I must attend that dr for at least 6 months.
Then an allocation to a dr who was verbally abusive; I had already tried to register with him you see. HSE stopped communicating at that stage and I had had enough so it i this GP I am seeking a repeat prescription from and there is no way I am going there in person.. Just is all too much and if need be I will find a way to get the meds I need It is all far too stressful else.
I have no idea if he has accepted me or not and am in no doubt that when the 6 months is up I will again be on the carousel. I used to wonder why people went to A and E with things a GP should be dealing with....
How is your friend? I have distant very supportive family thankfully..
It has all been an education and a far cry from the drs I knew even in recent years in Ireland. Disappointing.0 -
I understand my friend has made a written complaint to the doctor so we will see how it goes. Will keep all updated.Davey, I am so grateful to you for this thread as it has helped me to come to terms with what has happened to me. THANK YOU...It seems that lay managers have taken on far too much and are involving in what should be between doctor and patient. It did surprise me how many here assumed there was more to this and that the dr maybe was justified. In my case I did nothing wrong.
I took advice carefully from expert sources; my complaint was not about a clinical matter but a piece of grossly unprofessional and inappropriate behaviour by a young dr on an emergency visit that could have had very far reaching bad effects on my life I did not even know her name or that she was in the same practice as my GP.
The complaint was upheld and an apology made and accepted by which time I had been dropped by my GP with no reason given which is against rules.
What is worse is that when I tried to register elsewhere there were huge problems. Word had clearly spread...
The letter shocked me and I was ill abed at the time. HSE give ten days for you to register elsewhere, then they allocate you to a dr. I tried but had no choice and could not take any more refusals from practices. So I let it ride.
The first allocation they made was to a dr 40 miles away who refused because of that. NB I am at least 15 miles from any town anyways!
Then HE in their office in Dublin, allocated me to the GP I had made the complaint about ie the practice who had dropped me.
Each time a medical card arrived and the warning I must attend that dr for at least 6 months.
Then an allocation to a dr who was verbally abusive; I had already tried to register with him you see. HSE stopped communicating at that stage and I had had enough so it i this GP I am seeking a repeat prescription from and there is no way I am going there in person.. Just is all too much and if need be I will find a way to get the meds I need It is all far too stressful else.
I have no idea if he has accepted me or not and am in no doubt that when the 6 months is up I will again be on the carousel. I used to wonder why people went to A and E with things a GP should be dealing with....
How is your friend? I have distant very supportive family thankfully..
It has all been an education and a far cry from the drs I knew even in recent years in Ireland. Disappointing.0 -
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The medical council is for making a complaint about a doctors behaviour or fitness to practise, not for disputes with admin staff. They won't even entertain it if you go to them with it.
According to the guide of professional conduct, it is the doctors duty to care for a patient that they already have, and if they can't treat them for any reason, they must take care of them until they find somewhere else to go, or are referred to another doctor. Keep in mind this is a guide, not a rule book.
Your friend would be best served by getting over her issue with going to a new doctor, if she doesn't get a response from the doctor. Tell her that if she is going to move doctors, she is entitled to her medical records under the Data Protection Act, and they should be forwarded to her or her new doctor, as requested.
The reality is that doctors can choose their patients, though usually before they take them on. It seems possible this is coming from the doctor, in which case, if you have proof, you should make a complaint to the MC. However, you should be aware that the purpose of making a complaint to the MC is not to get the doctor do what you want, they'll simply look into whether or not the doctor did something wrong. So ultimately, she's really just better off to get a new doctor.0 -
Something doesn't add up here and maybe the letter would be a good last shot, but I think the best course of action for her sake is to find a new GP. I completely understand how daunting it is to even consider sharing your issues with someone new, and it's really unfair that she has to do this, but I think it'll be easier than dragging out the situation at hand which will just cause her more anxiety. The sooner she moves on and gets sorted with someone new, the sooner she'll feel better about things.0
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Something doesn't add up here and maybe the letter would be a good last shot, but I think the best course of action for her sake is to find a new GP. I completely understand how daunting it is to even consider sharing your issues with someone new, and it's really unfair that she has to do this, but I think it'll be easier than dragging out the situation at hand which will just cause her more anxiety. The sooner she moves on and gets sorted with someone new, the sooner she'll feel better about things.
Easier said than done as I am finding, to find a new doctor. I have given up as am too unwell to cope now.0 -
Easier said than done as I am finding, to find a new doctor. I have given up as am too unwell to cope now.
I've done it. So it's do-able.
Are you based in Dublin? I'd be happy to pm you my Drs details if it would help, he's based in D2 and is very good. He's a straight talker and doesn't attempt to molly coddle you, but is very understanding.0 -
I've done it. So it's do-able.
Are you based in Dublin? I'd be happy to pm you my Drs details if it would help, he's based in D2 and is very good. He's a straight talker and doesn't attempt to molly coddle you, but is very understanding.
No if you mean me here , am way down in Kerry and have been refused by drs now. I have no faith in them to start with ..I have M.E and few even believe it exists. I hope this lady fares better.0 -
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No if you mean me here , am way down in Kerry and have been refused by drs now. I have no faith in them to start with ..I have M.E and few even believe it exists. I hope this lady fares better.
Ah I'm sorry, I really am. It's soul destroying trying to find help when you're in constant pain, and even worse when its invalidated. For what it's worth, a friend of mine has M.E. and I know it exists, I know how difficult it is to just get up every day - if you can get up at all, and I personally know how tough it is to deal with an 'invisible' illness. All you can do is your best, I won't tell you not to give up because I know you've probably tried not to give up a million times over and struggled through it for even longer than that. So if you're tired of trying to find help, I get it. But what I will say is that you don't have to give up forever. Take some time, even if its months, and maybe in time you'll find the will to try again. And maybe by then there will be someone willing to help.
In the meantime, have you tried reaching out to others with the same illness? That's one thing that's really helped me. I do it via online communities/support but there are lots of ways. I found a thread on here which might help you, just search for 'ME support Ireland' ,it won't let me post the link as I'm a new user.0 -
Ah I'm sorry, I really am. It's soul destroying trying to find help when you're in constant pain, and even worse when its invalidated. For what it's worth, a friend of mine has M.E. and I know it exists, I know how difficult it is to just get up every day - if you can get up at all, and I personally know how tough it is to deal with an 'invisible' illness. All you can do is your best, I won't tell you not to give up because I know you've probably tried not to give up a million times over and struggled through it for even longer than that. So if you're tired of trying to find help, I get it. But what I will say is that you don't have to give up forever. Take some time, even if its months, and maybe in time you'll find the will to try again. And maybe by then there will be someone willing to help.
In the meantime, have you tried reaching out to others with the same illness? That's one thing that's really helped me. I do it via online communities/support but there are lots of ways. I found a thread on here which might help you, just search for 'ME support Ireland' ,it won't let me post the link as I'm a new user.
Thanks for this kindness.. I have after three decade in the UK wrongly diagnosed and treated like dirt by drs totally come to terms with the M.E and in fact lead, left to my own resources, which I make sure I am ! lead a full and above all giving life.. I spend most of each day abed , getting up to feed and see to my critters, do a little housework etc, and always knitting etc for my market stall to feed the babies and homeless my family care for overseas. Any outing mean three days; a rest day before and a rest day afterwards but that is fine by me.
What has not been fine as the drs here have no idea of M.E is when they demand I attend surgery " for review. ! ie travel maybe 40 miles to be patted on the head etc. It is either that OR do my markets and I know which matters more..
Also in M.E the immune system is down so a surgery is not the place to be.
I have tried forums etrc BUT I get in trouble as I am very aware through experience of how quickly the body becomes deconditioned. and many sufferers are in total denial about this.. Lungs and blood pressure function are vital and if you stay abed etc too long the symptoms of deconditioning are like the M.E. I make sure I do not let this happen.. but that idea can be very unpopular.. also understandably many with M.E get depressed and I am not and that can clash too! I once got thrown off a forum for saying I had done a little digging as that proved I do not have M.E :rolleyes:
Being with non M.E folk is much healthier and I know this illness inside out now. So I am staying perforce on a drs list as I have to to keep my medical card BUT will not be attending his surgery! Am applying for the one item I need but have contingency plans if he refuses to prescribe. The less meds I take the better
Anything serious like the fall when I broke my wrist is a n A and E job! And my family have my Power of Attorney. nb one dr that time asked me if I knew what M.E stands for!
The situation has dragged me down and I will not allow that any more..Always hated bullies! I have five Christmas craft fairs booked and intend to enjoy them... for those who have nothing unless it is given.
Then I can rest and sleep and eat and get ready for NEXT season...
I am happy and very fulfilled and feel very blessed to have reached 70 plus....0 -
Well, one hurdle over.. I wrote in to the dr I "think" I am now allocated to for a repeat prescription with an SAE and it came very quickly.
Am really unwell and with a heavy cold in addition now and the weather is not fit to be out in so am thankful I can shelve these issues for a while.
It reminds me of something one official said to me many years ago over a problem with a agovt dept.... When I said nothing was being done, he looked meaningfully at me and aid, " But you dont know what is going in in the background.." Never forgotten that and it is a very comforting thought.
How is your friend getting on Davey?0 -
Not great to be honest. She has recieved a letter from the doctor refusing to treat her (as she is no longer in the catchment area) and it touches on the complaint she made but does not actually mention it or give an explanation.Well, one hurdle over.. I wrote in to the dr I "think" I am now allocated to for a repeat prescription with an SAE and it came very quickly.
Am really unwell and with a heavy cold in addition now and the weather is not fit to be out in so am thankful I can shelve these issues for a while.
It reminds me of something one official said to me many years ago over a problem with a agovt dept.... When I said nothing was being done, he looked meaningfully at me and aid, " But you dont know what is going in in the background.." Never forgotten that and it is a very comforting thought.
How is your friend getting on Davey?
Basically find yourself another doctor and we don't have to explain ourselves to you.
The medical Mafia don't have to answer to anybody it seems and there seems to be nowhere to make a complaint it's her word against the practice manager. The letter also touched on the fact that my friend may have misunderstood the practice manager as she has "chronic depression" and it was merely her perspective on the events but there will be no apology no explaination nothing.
Seems the weak just get walked on in this country.0 -
Not great to be honest. She has recieved a letter from the doctor refusing to treat her (as she is no longer in the catchment area) and it touches on the complaint she made but does not actually mention it or give an explanation.
Basically find yourself another doctor and we don't have to explain ourselves to you.
The medical Mafia don't have to answer to anybody it seems and there seems to be nowhere to make a complaint it's her word against the practice manager. The letter also touched on the fact that my friend may have misunderstood the practice manager as she has "chronic depression" and it was merely her perspective on the events but there will be no apology no explaination nothing.
Seems the weak just get walked on in this country.
Steam coming out of my ears... Davey go to the HSE website and they speak re complaints. I think it is something like YOURSAY. Tell them the situation and they will forward it to the Primary Health Care executive; I have a senior exec on email and he can make noise effectively. The drs etc will sadly lie... I had one practice aver I had filled in emergency treatment forms not registration forms.. I am MENSA IQ and not senile..Here I applied to the current medical card dr for a repeat scrip and it came by post immediately! I did tell what he had said to an influential neighbour....lol0 -
Not great to be honest. She has recieved a letter from the doctor refusing to treat her (as she is no longer in the catchment area) and it touches on the complaint she made but does not actually mention it or give an explanation.
Basically find yourself another doctor and we don't have to explain ourselves to you.
The medical Mafia don't have to answer to anybody it seems and there seems to be nowhere to make a complaint it's her word against the practice manager. The letter also touched on the fact that my friend may have misunderstood the practice manager as she has "chronic depression" and it was merely her perspective on the events but there will be no apology no explaination nothing.
Seems the weak just get walked on in this country.
PS if they admit wrong they lay themselves open to lawsuits.. normal rules of courtesy do not apply...0 -
All makes me realise too how rattled they were that I actually did get an apology from one dr! Even though it cost me the GP he worked with!0
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