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Doctor refused to treat her depressed patient.

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  • 11-11-2014 7:25pm
    #1
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭


    I am looking for some advice please my friend has suffered from depression for as long as I have known her over 20 years and has had the same (female) doctor in all that time. She was attacked and and has suffered panic attacks and was even on the social welfare invalidity pension for about 5 or 6 years due to cronic depression and formed a bond with this doctor BUT today the manager of the surgery refused to give her an appointment EVER not now not in the future even though her file is with the doctor and she has nowhere else to go.
    The reason given was that she no longer lives in the Dublin area she is a few miles away and falls into the meath area my friend has tried to find a doctor in the meath area but can't find one she is comfortable with and is nervous to move. She pays cash and has no medical card.
    I must add I have heard about this secretary/ manager before and she sounds like a real bitch.
    My friend told her she needed to see a doctor and she did not feel well and she did not ask how she was feeling or give any advice she just said you are no longer in this area and you are not getting to see any of the doctors here I will put a form in the post for you to change doctor. There has been no problems at all till today no prior history etc
    I don't think my friend is suicidial and I have had a good chat with her which is more than the surgery did but I do think she could do with seeing a medical doctor also she said her prescription for anti depressants is almost up.
    I have gone through the usual things "why don't you just move" " find someone else if they don't want your money" but it's not working she is very very upset and is planning to make an official complaint to the medical council of Ireland as the doctor still has her file so she is still "under her care" also she feels that the surgery should have seen her and that they have an ethical responsibility if nothing else.
    I don't think a dog should be treated the way my friend was what would be her best way to deal with this ?


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    #2
    princess-lala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30,731 ✭✭✭✭princess-lala


    Um my mother lives in Offaly and her doctor is in Meath......

    I know lots of people who don't live in the same county as their doctor. Can she ring back and ask to speak to the doctor


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    #3
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    princess-lala wrote: »
    Um my mother lives in Offaly and her doctor is in Meath......

    I know lots of people who don't live in the same county as their doctor. Can she ring back and ask to speak to the doctor

    Are you sure ? Is there not some new system ?


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    #4
    princess-lala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30,731 ✭✭✭✭princess-lala


    Private patient so I don't see why.....

    actually just chatting my cousin here. She also lives in Offaly and her nearest gp is 7 miles away in Westmeath so she goes there.


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    #5
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    princess-lala wrote: »
    Private patient so I don't see why.....

    actually just chatting my cousin here. She also lives in Offaly and her nearest gp is 7 miles away in Westmeath so she goes there.
    Ok thanks I will look into it for her as I think it could be a Dublin thing but it's a disgrace the way she was treated that's for sure.


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    #6
    Red Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Red Fred


    Big Davey wrote: »
    Are you sure ? Is there not some new system ?

    I live in Cavan and attend a doctor in Navan. If you're a private patient, not on the medical card there should be no "catchment area" issues. Sounds like the manager is just being akward for some reason. If you would like details of my doc pm me. She is very good, compassionate but straight talking at the same time but never rushes you.


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    #7
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    There was a change involving medical card holders a while back ,
    Did your friend tell her sugery she was moving county at all
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #8
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    Red Fred wrote: »
    I live in Cavan and attend a doctor in Navan. If you're a private patient, not on the medical card there should be no "catchment area" issues. Sounds like the manager is just being akward for some reason. If you would like details of my doc pm me. She is very good, compassionate but straight talking at the same time but never rushes you.
    Ok I may take you up on that and pass it on.
    Thanks


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    #9
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    Gatling wrote: »
    There was a change involving medical card holders a while back ,
    Did your friend tell her sugery she was moving county at all
    She may have informed a change of address I am not 100% sure but I do know she has never been a medical card holder ever.


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    #10
    challengemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 16,931 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    The thread title is somewhat misleading - At no point did the actual doctor refuse to treat the person.


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    #11
    Murray007
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭Murray007


    You may not be hearing the full story.

    My GP is in Cavan but as I work in Dublin during the week I usually see a doctor in Dublin. Never been an issue that my home address is Cavan.


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    #12
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    challengemaster wrote: »
    The thread title is somewhat misleading - At no point did the actual doctor refuse to treat the person.

    The manager of the practice that's the girl who is in charge of the receptionists and everything else refused to take the appointment you don't get to see the doctor or even speak to the doctor unless it goes through reception she said she had the backing of the surgery as there is more than one doctor there.
    Short of kicking in the door or waiting for the doctor to finish her shift and catch her going to her car I don't know what my friend could have done.
    I don't think it's misleading at all.


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    #13
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    Murray007 wrote: »
    You may not be hearing the full story.

    My GP is in Cavan but as I work in Dublin during the week I usually see a doctor in Dublin. Never been an issue that my home address is Cavan.

    The full story is that this manager seems to be a walking cxxt and has a reputation for being pig ignorant and ackward.
    BUT the main issue is should a surgery be allowed to turn away a sick patient who is under their care.
    Would the IMC be interested in this ?
    Is it ethical ?


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    #14
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    Big Davey wrote: »
    The manager of the practice that's the girl who is in charge of the receptionists and everything else refused to take the appointment you don't get to see the doctor or even speak to the doctor unless it goes through reception she said she had the backing of the surgery as there is more than one doctor there.
    Short of kicking in the door or waiting for the doctor to finish her shift and catch her going to her car I don't know what my friend could have done.
    I don't think it's misleading at all.

    It is misleading, the doctor didn't refuse to treat anyone, it was the manager who wouldn't let the doctor treat her.


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    #15
    tenifan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 523 ✭✭✭tenifan


    Maybe there is a reason and your friend just won't tell you, or maybe she doesn't know. E.g. maybe she takes up a 30-45 minutes of time when the practice manager only allows 10-15 minutes.

    Maybe she wasn't heeding the doctors advice. A doctor I know had an alcoholic patient who popped in once a week without fail to moan about his ailments, but she knew he was only there for a chat and he never any of the advice given to him.

    I know someone who was dropped by his doctor because he complained how long he was waiting in the waiting room. He was fed up waiting, complained, had his appointment. Later on apologised for the complaint. A week later, he got a phone call to say he would no longer be seen by the doctor.

    Doctors are just people too, they are trying to run a business, and to some extent they can decide who they want as patients.


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    #16
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    ahnowbrowncow wrote: »
    It is misleading, the doctor didn't refuse to treat anyone, it was the manager who wouldn't let the doctor treat her.

    And how exactly should my friend get to the doctor ? Please explain ?
    The manager is a representative of the doctor and the surgery and carried out their orders.
    How would you deal with it if it were you or your friend ?


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    #17
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    Ok let's just for one second pretent my friend is not an alcoholic, does do what she is told, does not take up 45 minutes, is not a total liar etc etc
    What then ? was it correct and fair that a sick person was refused treatment.






    tenifan wrote: »
    Maybe there is a reason and your friend just won't tell you, or maybe she doesn't know. E.g. maybe she takes up a 30-45 minutes of time when the practice manager only allows 10-15 minutes.

    Maybe she wasn't heeding the doctors advice. A doctor I know had an alcoholic patient who popped in once a week without fail to moan about his ailments, but she knew he was only there for a chat and he never any of the advice given to him.

    I know someone who was dropped by his doctor because he complained how long he was waiting in the waiting room. He was fed up waiting, complained, had his appointment. Later on apologised for the complaint. A week later, he got a phone call to say he would no longer be seen by the doctor.

    Doctors are just people too, they are trying to run a business, and to some extent they can decide who they want as patients.


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    #18
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    Your friend can ask to speak directly to the doctor on the phone or leave a message asking to talk only with that specific doctor, and ask to be phone within today or next day. Then you'll know whether the message was passed on.

    Alternatively a posted letter or hand-delivered letter marked 'confidential' 'addressee only' or 'private' (or all three for good measure!) will do it.

    Assuming the manager is carrying out the doctor's orders, yes, she can make a complaint first to the practice, and then the IMC


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    #19
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Big Davey wrote: »
    And how exactly should my friend get to the doctor ? Please explain ?
    The manager is a representative of the doctor and the surgery and carried out their orders.
    How would you deal with it if it were you or your friend ?

    Maybe ask the surgery direcly ,check her local hospital for a tlc doctor/s its an out of hours gp service in some hospitals
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #20
    dar100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭dar100


    Tell your friend to make a compliant to the HSE, also the doctor has a duty of care to the client, a referral must be done to an appropriate service.

    I don't imagine the doctor would be happy about the secretary doing this, it also sounds like there are issues of the secretary crossing the line and maybe some confidentiality issues here, e.g what team did she discuss this with, and what aspects of your friends situation was discussed


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    #21
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    JuliusCaesar wrote: »
    Your friend can ask to speak directly to the doctor on the phone or leave a message asking to talk only with that specific doctor, and ask to be phone within today or next day. Then you'll know whether the message was passed on.

    Alternatively a posted letter or hand-delivered letter marked 'confidential' 'addressee only' or 'private' (or all three for good measure!) will do it.

    Assuming the manager is carrying out the doctor's orders, yes, she can make a complaint first to the practice, and then the IMC
    That's good advice thanks.
    Now let's just say for arguments sake that the doctor turns around and says yes the manager was correct to turn you away and refuse to give you an appointment even though you are unwell and you are still under our care and your file is with us you are not living in Dublin so are no longer entitled to to come to this surgery and pay us for our services.
    What then ?


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    #22
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    dar100 wrote: »
    Tell your friend to make a compliant to the HSE, also the doctor has a duty of care to the client, a referral must be done to an appropriate service.

    I don't imagine the doctor would be happy about the secretary doing this, it also sounds like there are issues of the secretary crossing the line and maybe some confidentiality issues here, e.g what team did she discuss this with, and what aspects of your friends situation was discussed

    What could the hse do ? Are they not only for medical card holders. Should my friend complain to HSE and medical council too ?


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    #23
    tenifan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 523 ✭✭✭tenifan


    Big Davey.. your friend was not refused treatment. If your friend had trouble breathing or a similar emergency case and landed at the doorstep of the doctor, you can bet the doctor will treat your friend. That is the extent of treatment the GP is required to provide to your friend.
    There is a big difference between refusing treatment and telling someone they are no longer wanted as a patient.
    So, no, your friend should not complain to the HSE or medical council. She should move on with her life and find a new GP as soon as possible.


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    #24
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    tenifan wrote: »
    Big Davey.. your friend was not refused treatment. If your friend had trouble breathing or a similar emergency case and landed at the doorstep of the doctor, you can bet the doctor will treat your friend. That is the extent of treatment the GP is required to provide to your friend.
    There is a big difference between refusing treatment and telling someone they are no longer wanted as a patient.
    So, no, your friend should not complain to the HSE or medical council. She should move on with her life and find a new GP as soon as possible.
    Are you a doctor ?
    What about the "duty of care" what about "ethical responsibilities " do you think the medical council and its rules should just be ignored ?
    The manager had no idea what my friends medical condition was and never asked.
    If you think it's ok to treat another human being in that way it's a sad reflection on you and your own morals.
    What's next doctors going through sick people's pockets to see if they have money to pay.
    My friend as far as I am aware will be taking this as far as she can as she is hurt and angry.


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    #25
    dar100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭dar100


    Big Davey wrote: »
    What could the hse do ? Are they not only for medical card holders. Should my friend complain to HSE and medical council too ?

    Apologies, only seen she is fee paying client


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    #26
    neemish
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭neemish


    I have to say as someone in a similar position I would be devastated if this happened to me. I live on one side of the country, but still attend my GP at home as we have a good bond and she is good with mental health issues. If I could a blank "you are no longer a patient" from the manager, I'd fall apart.

    Is this a case of crossed communication? Could there have been a team meeting where it was decided to cut back the patient list and the manager is following that. But meanwhile the GP would be happy enough to keep one/two people on based on particular circumstances? I would advise writing/speaking to the GP directly to clarify the situation. It seems bad form to just drop a patient for no reason after so long (unless there are details that your friend hasn't mentioned)


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    #27
    Murray007
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭Murray007


    You have to face it there is something going on here. Where the person is a private patient there is no geographical barrier. Something else is happening and if that is the case then the patient will not get the best care by pushing to get into this doctor.

    I know that is hard for your friend but doctors deal with difficult people, in THEIR opinion, all the time and they do it, take the money and deal with the difficulties. If they do not want to see the patient any more then it really is in the best interest of the patient to get another doctor. A misunderstanding can destroy the doctor patient relationship and really it may be that neither side is at fault.


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    #28
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    neemish wrote: »
    I have to say as someone in a similar position I would be devastated if this happened to me. I live on one side of the country, but still attend my GP at home as we have a good bond and she is good with mental health issues. If I could a blank "you are no longer a patient" from the manager, I'd fall apart.

    Is this a case of crossed communication? Could there have been a team meeting where it was decided to cut back the patient list and the manager is following that. But meanwhile the GP would be happy enough to keep one/two people on based on particular circumstances? I would advise writing/speaking to the GP directly to clarify the situation. It seems bad form to just drop a patient for no reason after so long (unless there are details that your friend hasn't mentioned)
    Trust me on this there is no misunderstanding or crossed communication the manager of the surgery is not a nice person from all accounts I have heard not just the friend in question. She wants rid of people who are not in the "area" and as its a growing suburb of Dublin there is no shortage of patients to fill my friends place. The doctor herself is also a particular good and understanding doctor from all accounts. But this manager wants rid of people not from the locality and refused to give my friend an appointment.


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    #29
    Big Davey
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Big Davey


    Murray007 wrote: »
    You have to face it there is something going on here. Where the person is a private patient there is no geographical barrier. Something else is happening and if that is the case then the patient will not get the best care by pushing to get into this doctor.

    I know that is hard for your friend but doctors deal with difficult people, in THEIR opinion, all the time and they do it, take the money and deal with the difficulties. If they do not want to see the patient any more then it really is in the best interest of the patient to get another doctor. A misunderstanding can destroy the doctor patient relationship and really it may be that neither side is at fault.
    Where could I get proof that there is no geographical barrier ?
    There may be a personality clash between the manager and my friend I am not 100% sure but I can assure you there is no problems with the doctor herself.


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    #30
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    Big Davey wrote: »
    Where could I get proof that there is no geographical barrier ?

    A GPs practice is a private business. They can see patients from wherever they like. The only geographical boundaries are to do with public health services.

    If the problem is with the manager, talk with the doctor; if the problem is with the doctor, talk with her and try to sort it out. Only after that complain at a higher level.

    This is not difficult to solve, but will take some determination.


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    #31
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    i agree you may not be getting the full story.
    it might be best for your friend to shop around for another doctor. i know that some doctors do get fed up (for want of a better word) treating certain patients who may call and take up unmerciful lengths of time about problems that are probably never going to be resolved.

    i'm not saying your friend is like this and if she needs a doctor then the person on the desk should be more humane but sadly some places have reached a level where the length of an appointment time/number of patients a day ratio is far more important than a patient's welfare.

    good luck to your friend


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