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Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

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    #152
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    SW Donegal I still suspect :D

    Now wait till the pylon nimbys find out .


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    #153
    zod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭zod


    Pat, is there any way that people can show their support for your project. I think a simple letter template on the site with a signature at the bottom, addressed to the correct minister or whoever could be a great way to focus them ?

    It would only cost each person the price of a stamp, but could mean thousands of letters!


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    #154
    gpjordanf1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭gpjordanf1


    patgill wrote: »
    We are going to be sensible and build only one copy of the worlds largest natural energy power station at a time !!

    Seriously the engineering effort required makes building one at a time, the sensible way forward. It is our intention to build a real natural energy industry in Ireland and believe that this industry will be the countries saviour, can you name one other industry that could be built in a very short time, have a multibillion euro turnover in its first year of operation, employ tens of thousands of workers and never run out of a market for its products. Oh I nearly forgot, provide the income to support NAMA !!!!.

    Thanks Pat!

    Sounds great, everything this country is crying out for right now and going into the future!

    Will we hear a concrete plan by the end of Sept or a proposal? When do you realistically hope to start this project? 1 year, 3 years 5 years? And how long to get into full operation?

    Maybe alot of unknowns there but people will want to know?

    Not trying to be crytical just really interested?


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    #155
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    SW Donegal I still suspect :D

    Now wait till the pylon nimbys find out .

    Sponge Bob
    No comment on the geography.

    On the pylons issue, we intend to use 60kva lines to connect the windfarms to the hydro unit, these lines will not be carried on metal pylons, but large wooden poles as wooden poles tend to blend into the countryside better, well they are simply trees with no leaves.

    But there will still need to be at least a new 400KVA double circuit to the east coast, we are currently costing the merits of using HVDC underground lines, if they prove cost effective maybe we might investigate putting them along the canal towpaths and kill two birds with the one stone. But it is all down to cost.

    Are the NIMBYS prepared to pay more for their electricity ?


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    #156
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    patgill wrote: »
    But there will still need to be at least a new 400KVA double circuit to the east coast, we are currently costing the merits of using HVDC underground lines, if they prove cost effective maybe we might investigate putting them along the canal towpaths and kill two birds with the one stone. But it is all down to cost.

    Are the NIMBYS prepared to pay more for their electricity ?

    You basically cannot deal with Nimbys , they are utterly irrational gob****es and the more irrational they are then the noisier they are :(

    If there is a 1Gw generator on the west coast then you have another Moneypoint ( .9gw) where the electricity must be brought to where the demand is as it was with the 2 x 400Kv lines from Moneypoint to Dublin in the early 1980s .

    I assumed (months ago) that the best way to deal with the matter was to run HVDC ...(see about Norned and see the wiki on HVDC and the norway to germany/holland/denmark hvdc links )..... at least as far as Lanesboro where the 220v AC network essentially ends . That would get you very close to the Royal Canal too . Nice idea that canal , kudos :)

    I would tend to recommend underwater to Sligo in that case and overground or underground Sligo - Longford and then Longford - Dublin . Certain portions of the Sligo - Dublin road are scheduled to be upgraded which would also provide an opportunity to co - lo HVDC as far as Mullingar with the road . Talk to the Westmeath roads design office some time .

    Sadly the Galway Dublin road is as good as built so you will not get HVDC under that . That is the other logical physical corridor that could have supported underground HVDC at construction. :(

    Furthermore if there are a few west coast 1Gw clusters it makes sense to have 1 Backbone HVDC corridor to Dublin from the west and Sligo- Mullingar has the most potential to my mind with transformation to 220 or 440 around Mullingar . It means that in a worst possible case of attack of the killer Nimbys all 1GW generator clusters can deliver underwater to Sligo and dock with the corridor .

    I do assume here that all 1GW clusters will be in Galway or Mayo or Donegal but a Galway based one may 'take over' the Moneypoint 440kv lines in time meaning that Galway-Kerry would drop into Moneypoint and upconvert there or be carried on the Moneypoint/Tarbert pylonage that is in situ.

    I would get enough cabling under a Sligo - Mullingar road corridor to deliver 3Gw of HVDC + 2 cables under repair .

    I further assume that there shall be ONLY 2 or 3 points nationwide where HVDC upconverstion to AC shall occur owing to the costs .

    I think that as there is no demand in the NW quadrant of the state that it should be HVDC from the dam to Mullingar , there is demand in the Shannon estuary and Cork/Limerick so Moneypoint comes to mind for a second one . A third maybe around Portlaoise but that is it.

    I would further explore and educate as to whether 220kv route diversity is a 'good thing' North and West of Lanesboro where the route diversity currently ends and whether a 220kv would be desirable along a corridor of Tuam - Castlebar - Ballina - Sligo - Lanesboro and with some HVDC pylon co-lo thrown in with the 220kv . Burying everything is ****ing pointless :(

    This means that Sligo and Mayo interests must educate their own in why large employers tend to locate in Dublin and in Cork where they have more stable grids thanks to route diversity . Even Galway has near route diversity with 3 x 220kv feeds coming to Athenry ( not to the city itself ) .

    It would also be a help if an 'Intel' or 'Pfizer' explained why they will never come to Mayo or Sligo as things are .


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    #157
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    gpjordanf1 wrote: »
    Thanks Pat!

    Sounds great, everything this country is crying out for right now and going into the future!

    Will we hear a concrete plan by the end of Sept or a proposal? When do you realistically hope to start this project? 1 year, 3 years 5 years? And how long to get into full operation?

    Maybe alot of unknowns there but people will want to know?

    Not trying to be crytical just really interested?

    The plan is to present as complete a proposal as we can at the end of the month, engage with everyone for 100 days of consultation, at the end of which we need to have the government give its consent for the project to proceed. The first site will then need a year of environmental study, during which the administritive foundations of the project is built in logical steps, form the co op, raise the finance, etc.
    Our plan is that we start turning ground towards the end of 2010 and the first unit should be generating electricity about 2 years later, then we pack up the tools and move down the road to area 2.

    Zod
    that is a good idea and consider it taken on board if we need it, however we have had a huge amount of enthusiasm from politicians in general, I will single two out for particular mention, Brian Lenihan and Enda Kenny, have helped the project when they have been asked, the local politicians in the west are now becoming aware of the project and I have no reason to believe that they will not take the project seriously. The government will only be asked THE question approaching Christmas this year. They could yet be in a position to give the country a nice present this year.

    Pat


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    #158
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    You basically cannot deal with Nimbys , they are utterly irrational gob****es and the more irrational they are then the noisier they are :(

    If there is a 1Gw generator on the west coast then you have another Moneypoint ( .9gw) where the electricity must be brought to where the demand is as it was with the 2 x 400Kv lines from Moneypoint to Dublin

    I assumed (months ago) that the best way to deal with the matter was to run HVDC ...pace Norned ..... at least as far as Lanesboro where the 220v network ends . That would get you very close to the Royal Canal too . Nice idea that canal , kudos :)

    I would tend to recommend underwater to Sligo in that case and overground or underground Sligo - Longford and then Longford - Dublin . Certain portions of the Sligo - Dublin road are scheduled to be upgraded which would also provide an opportunity to co - lo HVDC as far as Mullingar with the road . Talk to the Restmeath roads design office

    Sadly the Galway Dublin road is as good as built so you will not get HVDC under that . That is the other physical corridor that could have supported underground HVDC at construction. :(

    I would further explore and educate whether 220kv route diversity is a 'good thing' North and West of Lanesboro where the route diversity currently ends and whether a 220kv would be desirable along a corridor of Tuam - Castlebar - Ballina - Sligo - Lanesboro and with some HVDC pylon co-lo thrown in with the 220kv . Burying everything is ****ing pointless :(

    This means that Sligo and Mayo interests must educate their own in why large employers tend to locate in Dublin and in Cork where they have more stable grids thanks to route diversity . Even Galway has near route diversity with 3 x 220kv feeds coming to Athenry ( not to the city itself ) .

    It would also be a help if an 'Intel' or 'Pfizer' explained why they will never come to Mayo or Sligo as things are .


    Good post, please say you are transmission engineer with some spare time! or even if you know of such a creature..... patgill@spiritofireland.org


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    #159
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I am not , I am a communications networks person and my post follows network logic .

    The economics of HVDC are that the cable is not a massive cost issue and that much of the cost is the conversion station where it is converted to grid AC ...importantly NEAR where the demand is and as near as possible ideally , certainly no further west than Lanesboro but ideally around Leixlip/Maynooth or else try to dock with the proposed Meath - Tyrone 400kv Pylons and go overground on that to south Meath

    You can always say straight out that you WANT it under the road and you WANT the road built ....but that it will have to go overground until then .

    That creates a mesh of interests between Sligo and Dublin where nearly everyone wants that road built ..bar the usual loud vacous Nimbys :( North and west of Sligo you can go underwater or overground...at least you have an option and are not held hostage by the usual ****ing stupid nimbys :D

    But a single high capacity West to East National HVDC corridor is necessary in my opinion and needs to be promoted as a coherent project .

    I retain no copyright or any other residual intellectual rights on my proposals , work away off them if you wish but do credit them me@boards .


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    #160
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Sadly the Galway Dublin road is as good as built so you will not get HVDC under that . That is the other logical physical corridor that could have supported underground HVDC at construction.

    What about running the cables along the un-used NRA land-take along the whole length of the M6? The NRA has many metres of land width-wise along both carriageways of almost all the interurbans. Surely this could be used for many kilometres.

    Here is the M8 for instance. Note the metres of excess land along the left-hand side. Granted, theres a drainage canal here, but believe me when I say that this isn't always the case:
    M8atGalteefoothills.jpg

    Surely similar corridors exist along the new M6 or other new roads?


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    #161
    Roryhy
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Roryhy


    what is the efficiency of bringing electricity from say donegal to dublin, will much energy be lost?


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    #162
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Furet wrote: »
    What about running the cables along the un-used NRA land-take along the whole length of the M6? The NRA has many metres of land width-wise along both carriageways of almost all the interurbans. Surely this could be used for many kilometres.

    Here is the M8 for instance. Note the metres of excess land along the left-hand side. Granted, theres a drainage canal here, but believe me when I say that this isn't always the case:
    M8atGalteefoothills.jpg

    Surely similar corridors exist along the new M6 or other new roads?


    Good Idea it shows there are many ways to skin a cat, (where did that saying) originate, but it will ultimitaly come down to cost.


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    #163
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Roryhy wrote: »
    what is the efficiency of bringing electricity from say donegal to dublin, will much energy be lost?


    Rory

    depends on the method and size of conductor and believe it or not the ambient temperature, but broadly speaking between 2 and 6% ish, it is a factor that will enter the cost benefit analysis of method.


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    #164
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Is that loss figure HDVC or AC Pat and can you tell us the different expected losses over 200km ???

    The M6 take is generally narrower Furet and 2 long sections ( c 80km ) are PPP sections meaning the road is 'owned' by a party other than the state .

    However much of this could be bypassed were one to follow the Athenry-Athlone railway line ( and dual tracking it :D sure why not :D ) .


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    #165
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    A 450 HVDC cable is a lot less ugly than a 400 AC cable

    HVDC loses less than AC on a 200km run , and the conductors are narrower in cross section , but the conversion station and the DC remote 'end' is more expensive .

    Most EU ones run across the baltic or across the med .

    HVDC 600MW rating from the wiki


    800px-HVDCPylons.jpg

    as against an 800MW AC cable, this is a UK 'Supergrid' Pylon carrying 2 x 400MW in parallel , one ugly mofo or what :(

    proxy?max_age=604800&url=http%3A%2F%2Fs0.geograph.org.uk%2Fphotos%2F24%2F21%2F242122_da2a5bfc.jpg



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    #166
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    Whats the 'attitude' in Brussels about this project ?


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    #167
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    The main advantage of HVDC technology is that it can be laid underground almost like a pipeline, but it is generally about a third to twice as expensive as an overhead line, the other main consideration is that it is a much bigger job to find and repair faults.

    Losses on a transmission line are simply the cost of doing business, the laws of thermodynamics are hard to cheat.
    There is much work being done on superconducting technology but again the financial cost will be high.

    We drive cars and so we have roads, we use electricity and so we need transmission lines.


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    #168
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    weepee wrote: »
    Whats the 'attitude' in Brussels about this project ?


    Good man weepee, straight to the elephant in the room, the environmental cost of a project like ours.

    Irelands best wind resources lie along the atlantic coast, the only suitable hanging glacial valleys are on the west coast. But the west coast of Ireland is almost one big conservation area. There are Special Areas of Conservation or SAC's or specific areas of preservation of all descriptions. In fact these measures impact the lives of the people on the west coast in a very real way and the economic restrictions this imposes on the region were to a large extent mitigated by REPS payments, which are now disappearing.

    Spirit of Ireland have been studying the european legislation which enables and controls these conservation measures and have been consulting bodies such as An Taisce and the National Parks and Wildlife service. Our belief is that the legislation will enable the project to ahead provided we are diligent in our work.

    Many projects throughout Europe receive exemption from these arduous regulations where they can show that these projects meet the IROPI principle or Imperative Reasons of Overriding Public Interest and we are currently preparing the case for same.


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    #169
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    patgill wrote: »
    Good man weepee, straight to the elephant in the room, the environmental cost of a project like ours.

    Irelands best wind resources lie along the atlantic coast, the only suitable hanging glacial valleys are on the west coast. But the west coast of Ireland is almost one big conservation area. There are Special Areas of Conservation or SAC's or specific areas of preservation of all descriptions. In fact these measures impact the lives of the people on the west coast in a very real way and the economic restrictions this imposes on the region were to a large extent mitigated by REPS payments, which are now disappearing.

    Spirit of Ireland have been studying the european legislation which enables and controls these conservation measures and have been consulting bodies such as An Taisce and the National Parks and Wildlife service. Our belief is that the legislation will enable the project to ahead provided we are diligent in our work.

    Many projects throughout Europe receive exemption from these arduous regulations where they can show that these projects meet the IROPI principle or Imperative Reasons of Overriding Public Interest and we are currently preparing the case for same.

    Im 100% impressed by the project my friend, and when it first became public, discussed it with some American friends, who, like I were very
    interested, and impressed.

    However, cost seems very high for the initial construction and infrastructure, and I dont thing Cowen has any money left.

    Im interested in Brussels attitude because they're help would be required,
    along with the private sector.

    PS: I dont see any conflict with the natural environment of the surrounding area, in fact quite the opposite, the project would compliment it.


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    #170
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    weepee,
    We do not envisage the state needing to invest any public money in building the project, although as S of I has been an entirely voluntary effort up to now, with everyone paying their own costs, at this stage we wouldnt object to a little european money to help with remaining research, we are getting to the really expensive bit now.

    Our version of pumped storage may seem expensive, however it is only costing about a third of the cost of a normal pumped hydro installation and dont forget that you are building a piece of infrastructure with a useful life measured in centuries.


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    #171
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    patgill wrote: »
    weepee,
    We do not envisage the state needing to invest any public money in building the project, although as S of I has been an entirely voluntary effort up to now, with everyone paying their own costs, at this stage we wouldnt object to a little european money to help with remaining research, we are getting to the really expensive bit now.

    Our version of pumped storage may seem expensive, however it is only costing about a third of the cost of a normal pumped hydro installation and dont forget that you are building a piece of infrastructure with a useful life measured in centuries.

    OK, but where would the initial investment for construction, land purchase, infastructure come from then ?


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    #172
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    weepee wrote: »
    OK, but where would the initial investment for construction, land purchase, infastructure come from then ?


    You will find a complete expanation at www.spiritofireland.org

    But the quick version is that we wish to form a public co op to raise about a billion with long term funding coming from the bond market, pension funds and sovereign wealth funds, where there is already a strong interest in the project, we have also consulted with the ECB.


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    #173
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    patgill wrote: »
    You will find a complete expanation at www.spiritofireland.org

    But the quick version is that we wish to form a public co op to raise about a billion with long term funding coming from the bond market, pension funds and sovereign wealth funds, where there is already a strong interest in the project, we have also consulted with the ECB.

    OK, I will read thru the website again, thanks Pat for taking the time to explain things, and every success.


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    #174
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    weepee, you should find a link on the home page to a presentation we made to the institute of engineers, almost everything is explained in detail in that presentation and as it is in video form it is easy to understand the whole project.


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    #175
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    patgill wrote: »
    weepee, you should find a link on the home page to a presentation we made to the institute of engineers, almost everything is explained in detail in that presentation and as it is in video form it is easy to understand the whole project.

    Thank you-Slan :)


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    #176
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    weepee
    You will find video presentations on most aspects of the project here

    https://engineersireland.webex.com/ec0600l/eventcenter/recording/recordAction.do?siteurl=engineersireland&theAction=archive

    the bottom half of this page contains all of the videos, you may need to download a small codec to run the videos, it is safe to do so, the academy of engineering is a venerated institution of impeccable character.


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    #177
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    patgill wrote: »
    The main advantage of HVDC technology is that it can be laid underground almost like a pipeline, but it is generally about a third to twice as expensive as an overhead line, the other main consideration is that it is a much bigger job to find and repair faults.

    Losses on a transmission line are simply the cost of doing business, the laws of thermodynamics are hard to cheat.
    There is much work being done on superconducting technology but again the financial cost will be high.

    We drive cars and so we have roads, we use electricity and so we need transmission lines.

    In the long term would the HVDC be more beneficial as there is less loss at the end of the line?

    I presume the main problem in debugging a fault in a HVDC transmission line would be actually trying to access a section of it from ground level. So in an AC line you can go to each section to check for noise with easier access?


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    #178
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    tech2 wrote: »
    In the long term would the HVDC be more beneficial as there is less loss at the end of the line?

    I presume the main problem in debugging a fault in a HVDC transmission line would be actually trying to access a section of it from ground level. So in an AC line you can go to each section to check for noise with easier access?

    correct the main considerations are cost and speed of repair in the case of damage, a lot of the power outages in Ireland these days are caused by damage to underground lines.

    And this damage takes much longer to repair and again costs more


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    #179
    zod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭zod


    patgill wrote: »
    we have completed a huge amount of work to turn this project into a reality and will be presenting the results of this work to the public at end of September, but here is a very brief synopsis.
    Any questions ?

    yes .. when will the new info be revealed ?


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    #180
    greyed
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭greyed


    Yeah, whats the deal pat, dont go all steorn on us...


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    #181
    patgill
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭patgill


    Hi all,
    I am still talking to you even though you mentioned the Steorn word, I actually wouldnt mind having a few of their bobs.
    The position is that we have changed our strategy, we have lost so much time because of Lisbon and NAMA and the total preoccupation of the government and opposition on these areas that we have decided to go ahead and choose 1, 2 or 3 sites and submit them to scrutiny by the local authorites, and local and european environmental authorities, we have met NPWS and they have outlined a course of action they would like us to follow in this regard.
    Alongside this we are moving forward on the funding part of the project and S of I people have been meeting financial advisors in London and on the continent on the shape of the financial prospectus needed.
    Things are moving fast now but not fast enough.

    Pat


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