Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

Higher · 27-02-2012 3:00pm #1

Murray is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind Reddan, Marshall and even Boss. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

Do you agree/disagree?

Sabre0001 · 27-02-2012 3:05pm

How can a guy with 8 caps be dropped long ago?

Gracelessly Tom · 27-02-2012 3:05pm

Higher wrote: »

Murray is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind Reddan, Marshall and even Boss. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

Do you agree/disagree?

Really? He's only in the team for about 6 months!! :rolleyes:

Higher · 27-02-2012 3:06pm

Sabre0001 wrote: »

How can a guy with 8 caps be dropped long ago?

He should have been dropped 7 caps ago.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 3:13pm

Higher wrote: »

Heaslip is probably the most undeserving player in the starting 15. He is completely overrated and should be well behind O'Brien, Leamy and even Kidney himself. Can anyone point out one performance for Ireland where he has justified his continued inclusion? For me he is the most hyped player in Ireland and should have been dropped long ago. I am beginning to question whether even his potential has been overstated. This guy should not be near an international team.

Do you agree/disagree?

Fixed that for you

TOMP · 27-02-2012 3:15pm

He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself

MungBean · 27-02-2012 3:18pm

I think Kidney took a gamble on him being another Mike Philips and launched him into the starting line up based on that alone.

Problem is he didnt turn out as expected and thanks to Kidney he's now in the very odd position of trying to develop to the point where he can be an international SH while being thrown out game after game to give performances he's not capable of giving.

I think he has huge potential but Kidney has given him no opportunity to work his way into the squad. He was gifted the starting spot that he didnt have to work for and people are starting to realise he shouldnt be there. So he cant develop because he has nothing to work towards, he needs to be dropped and allowed work his way up like everyone else.

I have no issue with a young guy getting some caps to develop them but he wasnt developed he was sent straight to the front of the queue and expected to deliver which was a ridiculous decision for an international coach to make. Meanwhile Reddan gets dumped to the bench and Boss left to Wolfhounds leaving Marshall out entirely. All because Kidney took a gamble and lumbered himself with another SH that shouldnt be in the position they are in and without the balls to drop him.

irishbucsfan · 27-02-2012 3:21pm

Not starting Reddan during the world cup was an utterly terrible decision.

There is more justification for starting Murray now because he is young and the world cup is over, but I personally am not convinced he is up to the standard required and have been saying that all season after watching his poor play for Munster, which has been continuously overlooked. O'Leary has been quicker than him.

He has to be dropped. Reddan and Sexton are our best combination by a long long way and every time they play we play well and win.

bamboozle · 27-02-2012 3:22pm

TOMP wrote: »

He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself

having potential and being up to 6n's standard are two very different things.

Higher · 27-02-2012 3:22pm

MungBean wrote: »

I think Kidney took a gamble on him being another Mike Philips and launched him into the starting line up based on that alone.

Problem is he didnt turn out as expected and thanks to Kidney he's now in the very odd position of trying to develop to the point where he can be an international SH while being thrown out game after game to give performances he's not capable of giving.

I think he has huge potential but Kidney has given him no opportunity to work his way into the squad. He was gifted the starting spot that he didnt have to work for and people are starting to realise he shouldnt be there.

I have no issue with a young guy getting some caps to develop them but he wasnt developed he was sent straight to the front of the queue and expected to deliver which was a ridiculous decision for an international coach to make. Meanwhile Reddan gets dumped to the bench and Boss left to Wolfhounds leaving Marshall out entirely. All because Kidney took a gamble and lumbered himself with another SH that shouldnt be in the position they are in and without the balls to drop him.

Its quite weird how Kidney works. Healy and O'Brien have entire seasons of being completely brilliant and only get into the team when Kidney's hand is forced through injuries yet Murray has 2-3 decent ML games and hes suddenly starting 9 for the World Cup.

Anyway, Murray didnt deserve to be there in the first place, doesnt deserve to be there now and yet is still starting. Why does Kidney find it so hard to drop players like Murray and O'Callaghan? They clearly dont deserve to be there so why are they still starting?

Quint2010 · 27-02-2012 3:22pm

Personally I think he has potential. I also think he was poor on saturday and should be dropped in favour of a player who helped improve the team performance immeasurably. Murray is one for the future just not the present

Skid · 27-02-2012 3:25pm

TOMP wrote: »

He was poor on Saturday. Very slow at distributing the ball.

However, he is on the team because he has potential so give him the chance to redeem himself

The full Ireland team is not the place to be learning your game.

When he was turned his potential into consistently good performances he should be considered again. Until then, Reddan is a much better player.

marco_polo · 27-02-2012 3:27pm

Well hopefully for his sake DK drafts in a few more promising young players who don't instantly adapt to the international game so people can have a pop at them instead.

And yes having said that that Reddan our best available SH at the moment and should be our starting scrum half.

Lapsed Catholic · 27-02-2012 3:27pm

I agree with you re Kidney.. I know Murray and can be accused of being somewhat one eyed. Going back to his selection and the RWC. Muarray was rung by Kidney and told that he was not going to NZ, too soon, too young etc etc. Ireland v France O'Leary has a nightmare and implodes. Murray on the plane, Kidney taking all the plaudits for promoting such a young player, Gaffney called it a brave decision. Hogwash. Kidney will drop Murray when he can deflect any blame from himself. Murray has huge potential and is the futer for Ireland at 9, maybe he needs to develop his game, maybe Kidney needs to stop with the negative stayle and let players express themselves.

rrpc · 27-02-2012 3:29pm

The more games he starts with Keatley, the better for him I think. Keatley is more like Sexton and plays close to the gainline, so that's where his development should lie if you accept that Sexton is likely to be our starting out half for the foreseable future.

Playing with O'Gara has made him slow because quick ball on the gainline isn't O'Gara's game.

DDC1990 · 27-02-2012 3:32pm

TBH, Murray is doing grand. His delivery is a similer speed to Reddans, its his decision making that I would question. However that all comes with match practice and maturity.

Redden's influence on the game on Saturday is being slightly overstated IMO. As many others have mentioned, the combination of Italy giving up, inclusion of POM and Ryan, combined with Reddan's superior decision making, made Reddan stand out.

Murray needs to be helped along by teamates as well however. At one stage Ireland had huge numbers left, and only Rob Kearney right. Kearney was screaming for the ball so loudly, that I could hear him in the top tier! Murray passed it to him, Kearney was isolated and we lost momentum. Murray needs to understand that HE's the decision maker, and he doesn't always have to pass to the guy screaming for the ball.

Murray's physicality is immense, and really brings something in defence that Ireland havn't had at SH for years. He is raw, and does need work, but you can't have it both ways. Kidney gets criticized for not playing young players, now he's criticized for persisting with a young player, to get him experience!

Higher · 27-02-2012 3:32pm

Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.

Higher · 27-02-2012 3:34pm

DDC1990 wrote: »

TBH, Murray is doing grand. His delivery is a similer speed to Reddans, its his decision making that I would question. However that all comes with match practice and maturity.

Redden's influence on the game on Saturday is being slightly overstated IMO. As many others have mentioned, the combination of Italy giving up, inclusion of POM and Ryan, combined with Reddan's superior decision making, made Reddan stand out.

Murray needs to be helped along by teamates as well however. At one stage Ireland had huge numbers left, and only Rob Kearney right. Kearney was screaming for the ball so loudly, that I could hear him in the top tier! Murray passed it to him, Kearney was isolated and we lost momentum. Murray needs to understand that HE's the decision maker, and he doesn't always have to pass to the guy screaming for the ball.

Murray's physicality is immense, and really brings something in defence that Ireland havn't had at SH for years. He is raw, and does need work, but you can't have it both ways. Kidney gets criticized for not playing young players, now he's criticized for persisting with a young player, to get him experience!

Its TOL all over again :rolleyes:

What good is physicality when you cant score at all because your scrum half is so slow, indecisive and a poor passer that he impedes every backline move. Its not like Reddan has ever been a slouch in defense anyway.

Seph503 · 27-02-2012 3:35pm

I think being subbed at the 50min mark was an indication that Kidney knew he wasn't having a good game, rather than waiting until the usual 60-65min mark of swapping the half backs, as opposed to what he suggested in his interview about the forwards providing cleaner ball (and not Reddan) for improving our game.

marco_polo · 27-02-2012 3:36pm

Higher wrote: »

Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.

At least the real agenda of this thread is out in the open now.

DDC1990 · 27-02-2012 3:36pm

Higher wrote: »

Kidney must hate Reddan. Murray goes from not even being on the plane to being starting scrum half. Although it could be possible that the IRFU have to play a certain number of Munster players by the IRFU. It could be very costly if Munster fans began to lose interest in the international game.

Sh1te, how did you find out! Its all a Munster Conspiricy, in conjunction with the IRFU and the Irish Farmers Journal.

The IRFU's secret police are on the way to your house right now.

You have 30 seconds to leave the building. If you stay, the wearing of a tin-foil hat, and chanting "The Bull is a Ligind", 30 times is the only thing that will stop them killing you.

Good Luck!

Cpt_Blackbeard · 27-02-2012 3:37pm

Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

Do you believe that Reddan is the best option to play a physical game away in Paris, despite the fact that Reddan is rarely selected for physical away games at club level?

Even the infallable Schmidt appears to agree that a more physical SH is needed for such away games. Murray is the best physical SH in the country/squad, and should he not be selected in France in a horses-for-courses affair?

Personally, I'm not positive who I think should start. Reddan was much better against Italy and deserves the start but, despite Murray's poor showing, his physicality and defense will most likely be needed against the French. He was possibly our best defender against Wales and will likely be needed against the French too.

justsomebloke · 27-02-2012 3:38pm

Please do not take this thread off topic with Munster V Leinster crap.

siltirocker · 27-02-2012 3:38pm

I'm pretty confident that Keatley and Murray haven't played with each other once yet.

Shocking (if that is the case) IMO.

27-02-2012 3:40pm

he has a lot of potential we have to start playing young players to develop them so we can compete for the next world cup thats why sexton is starting instead of rog and thats why ryan should be starting instead of doc. a lot of the complaints im hearing about murray now i herd about mike phillips when he started out he in now in my opnion one of the top shs in the world.

MungBean · 27-02-2012 3:42pm

I dont think it has anything to do with numbers of players from certain provinces. I think Kidney just wants a big physical SH and he's blind to the fact we dont have one good enough to be starting for Ireland. So rather than start Reddan and work with that he went with Murray hoping he would step up and he's refusing to accept the fact that he was wrong to do that. Similar to TOL, he ignored all criticism until Thomas himself cracked under the strain of being forced to play to a standard he wasnt capable of.

27-02-2012 3:43pm

Higher wrote: »

Its TOL all over again :rolleyes:

What good is physicality when you cant score at all because your scrum half is so slow, indecisive and a poor passer that he impedes every backline move. Its not like Reddan has ever been a slouch in defense anyway.

he is a far better passer than tol he just needs to learn to pass first

thomond2006 · 27-02-2012 3:43pm

BoardsMember · 27-02-2012 3:46pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

There's your problem right there. This thread is about Murray, it's not a Leinster/Munster thread. One player is playing poorly, another is playing well when he gets in. It's quite simple, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where the players play their rugby.

irishbucsfan · 27-02-2012 3:48pm

Maliyah Fast Spike wrote: »

he has a lot of potential we have to start playing young players to develop them so we can compete for the next world cup thats why sexton is starting instead of rog and thats why ryan should be starting instead of doc. a lot of the complaints im hearing about murray now i herd about mike phillips when he started out he in now in my opnion one of the top shs in the world.

That's just youth for the sake of youth. Murray has had 3 poor games in a row for Ireland and we need to let him go away and work on his obvious flaws.

The other young guys are playing because they are clearly better than the other options available.

Murray isn't good enough yet. He should not be playing at this level, especially ahead of Reddan.

rrpc · 27-02-2012 3:49pm

For those assuming previously prepared provincial positions regarding Murray and Reddan, please stop?

The fact is that Murray has not worked well with Sexton in any match the two have started. Conversely in matches that Sexton started with Reddan, the difference is almost spectacular. Two standouts are the Engalnd match in last year's 6N and the Australia match in the RWC. In fact the England match last year was so different to what had gone before that it shouldn't have been in question as to who should be the starting SH (and yes, I know it was TOL that Kidney favoured then - who incidentally seems to have gained a bit of speed since).

But that's not what has happened, and yet again we have an immediate improvement when the magic combination has been struck. People talking about forwards upping their game and Italians tiring are missing the point (or listening too much to Kidneyspeak). Currently our best half back pairing is Sexton and Reddan. Murray may well be the future, but he needs to speed up 100% and stay at that speed for 100% of the time before he's ready to take over.

Start him with Keatley for Munster and he'll gain the experience and tempo he needs. He could well be our best SH ever.

irishbucsfan · 27-02-2012 3:51pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Question for the Leinster lads campaigning for Reddan to start:

Do you believe that Reddan is the best option to play a physical game away in Paris, despite the fact that Reddan is rarely selected for physical away games at club level?

Even the infallable Schmidt appears to agree that a more physical SH is needed for such away games. Murray is the best physical SH in the country/squad, and should he not be selected in France in a horses-for-courses affair?

Personally, I'm not positive who I think should start. Reddan was much better against Italy and deserves the start but, despite Murray's poor showing, his physicality and defense will most likely be needed against the French. He was possibly our best defender against Wales and will likely be needed against the French too.

Boss is picked away from home because of how well he orchestrates the pack in a tight game. Not because of his physicality. This isn't something Murray offers either. Id be all for Boss starting with Reddan on the bench if that was our game plan. It isn't and so it won't happen.

Leinster7 · 27-02-2012 3:53pm

Murray has a lot of potential, but his blooding in at a time when Reddan was in fine form, HC winner etc and playing regularly with Sexton was another Kidney mistake in a long line...

27-02-2012 3:59pm

rrpc wrote: »

But that's not what has happened, and yet again we have an immediate improvement when the magic combination has been struck. People talking about forwards upping their game and Italians tiring are missing the point (or listening too much to Kidneyspeak). Currently our best half back pairing is Sexton and Reddan. Murray may well be the future, but he needs to speed up 100% and stay at that speed for 100% of the time before he's ready to take over.

i disagree the tempo raised when pom and d ryan came on but pom shouldn't be starting in front of what we have the italians have tired out in every 6 nations game this year the same happened on sat. murray had a poor match but reddan didn't outplay him to the level people are claiming yes reddans passing is a bit better but murray is a lot bigger than him and when it come do defending that counts for a lot.

27-02-2012 4:00pm

Leinster7 wrote: »

Murray has a lot of potential, but his blooding in at a time when Reddan was in fine form, HC winner etc and playing regularly with Sexton was another Kidney mistake in a long line...

hc winner isn't an issue it should be on ability alone

ozymandias10 · 27-02-2012 4:05pm

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

Cpt_Blackbeard · 27-02-2012 4:06pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

There's your problem right there. This thread is about Murray, it's not a Leinster/Munster thread. One player is playing poorly, another is playing well when he gets in. It's quite simple, it has nothing whatsoever to do with where the players play their rugby.

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

shuffol · 27-02-2012 4:06pm

There are of course arguments for sticking with a young player who's having trouble adapting to international rugby but scrum half is too pivotal a position, a young winger can have a poor game and not impact on the rest of the team but Murrays indecisiveness at the breakdown is stifling our entire attacking game, we've serious gamebreakers in our backrow who can wreak havoc off quick ball.

As for selecting him for his physicality and defence, we coped fine for years with Stringer at SH, why should we go there and resign oursleves to the fact that we'll be defending for most the game, next people will be calling for Buckley to be selected for his ball carrying.

Dont accept the Boss/Reddan rotation for Leinster argument, for one Boss has much more nous around the fringes than Murray does at this stage in his development, also when Boss starts for Leinster they play a different game, when Murray starts for Ireland we play the same game as when Reddans there only slower.

27-02-2012 4:06pm

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

o callahan i agree with personally i disagree with heaslip but who would you start instead of darcy

cbyrne11 · 27-02-2012 4:14pm

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Kidney seems to be persisting with a few others who must be close to be being dropped..Heaslip, d'Arcy, O Callaghan..

Agree with Heaslip (needs a kick up the arse) and O'Callaghan (Donnacha Ryan) but d'Arcy I thought played well at the weekend and given that O'Driscoll is out could do with that experience in Midfield, in the long run a few centre partnership has to be found though

BoardsMember · 27-02-2012 4:14pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

Sorry, I misread it. I think having read it quickly and then read the mod warning afterwards, I just got it messed up. Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive to the Munster v Leinster nonsense where Ireland is concerned, at the pub the other day two lads in their Munster jerseys shouting f off at Sexton the whole time, even once when someone else kicked to touch(think it was Earls), they only cheering when someone from Munster did something good etc. Just drives me mad, it's so pathetic.

corny · 27-02-2012 4:15pm

Everyone seems to preface every comment with he has potential. Well thats great but there are scores of players with the provinces who have potential but none of them are learning on the job with the national team. I mean we're talking about a lad who made his Heineken debut a couple of months ago. Every other player has to literally kick Kidneys door to earn a place on the team but an average player (at the minute) playing less than average rugby is suddenly fast tracked to the top. I've seen nothing of Murray to vindicate Kidney in any way and i think its scandalous he's keeping Reddan out of the side. I wouldn't have him on the bench truth be told.

smurphy29 · 27-02-2012 4:18pm

Personally I like and rate Murray, but he hs a problem at the moment. I've a deeling Munster are instructing him to carry the ball a fair bit, as they lack carriers in their pack with Wally out (POM, great and all as he is, is not really a carrier, and nor is Ronan). I thought he'd be told to just pass it for Ireland, but his Munster game seems to have affected him a bit. He's looking hesitant and making poor decisions. When he first came into the team his game was very fluid and uncomplicated.

I think it's a bit of second season syndrome - there's a lot of hysteria on this thread (hey! What's new?). It's a tough call to drop a young player after a couple of poor games, and his style might just suit the France game. I might just - just! - stick rather than twist, on balance.

27-02-2012 4:21pm

BoardsMember wrote: »

Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive to the Munster v Leinster nonsense where Ireland is concerned, at the pub the other day two lads in their Munster jerseys shouting f off at Sexton the whole time, even once when someone else kicked to touch(think it was Earls), they only cheering when someone from Munster did something good etc. Just drives me mad, it's so pathetic.

i agree really annoys me i have a buddy from leinester who's living down here now and we went to the pub to watch a munster leinester match about a year ago wearing our respective Jerseys now from the minute he got in to wen we left later that night he was getting bad looks but when leinester won (last min bod try) he went to get a pint and a fella actually threatened him a bit childish but ive seen it carry over onto boards on both sides your right to be proud of your province but dont let it make you blind to situations.

ozymandias10 · 27-02-2012 4:24pm

Maliyah Fast Spike wrote: »

o callahan i agree with personally i disagree with heaslip but who would you start instead of darcy

D'arcy seems tom have a monopoly here...he is difficult to replace but that doesn't deflect from the fact he is slowing the ball going out..he played well against Italy but every game makes at least one mistake that is costly in terms of opposition line breaks. the issue is for Kidney ..does he think he can play both sexton and O gara and move sexton to 12 (ala farrell for england) or does he opt for Downey of Northampton or even move trimble in there. I just think Kidney needs to look at it now to find the answer as D'arcy is not the player he was.

Heaslip needs to get a kick up the arse..I would change him as O Brien is really being played out of Position and I would move him to 6 ferris to eight and Peter O Mahony to 7...I think Heaslip would come back better if this happened as there is no disputing his ability

shuffol · 27-02-2012 4:25pm

Of course Reddans not somebody who's inclusion you want to be championing too much either, there's always the risk of looking very silly and having your credibility downgraded to junk status, a brainfart is never far away. In the space of about 3 starts for Ireland last season he threw 2 interception passes. I do think his pros outweigh his cons at this stage though.

27-02-2012 4:30pm

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Heaslip needs to get a kick up the arse..I would change him as O Brien is really being played out of Position and I would move him to 6 ferris to eight and Peter O Mahony to 7...I think Heaslip would come back better if this happened as there is no disputing his ability

so you'd move Ferris out of the position he's played all season,
followed by moving SOB out of the position he's played all season,
and also move POM out of the position he's played all season?

:baffling:

Spudmonkey · 27-02-2012 4:31pm

As a Munster supporter I'd rather give Murray a couple more seasons to develop his game with the province than destroying his confidence in the Irish setup.

There is no denying it, the difference Reddan made on Saturday was obvious and its clear that both he and Sexton are used to playing together. Also Murray looked pure dejected on the bench as Trimble went in for his try. He knew himself that he hadn't played well

Having seen Murray play a stormer last year in Musgrave, I have very high hopes for him. His passing was sharp and he had a couple of nice chips behind the defense. All in all he looked an exciting propect so he may well be the next Irish SH, he probably just needs a little more time.

fitz · 27-02-2012 4:35pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

My question has nothing to do with provincial rivalries. I was asking a question (which irishbucsfan fairly answered) about Reddan role in the Leinster setup. It was only obvious to direct the questiona at Leinster supporters.

Boss is picked for the tighter, pack driven games, Reddan for the quick expansive play. That's not to say Reddan isn't up to the physical challenge of the French.

We should be picking the team that allows us to play our game as effectively as possible. Reddan and Sexton should start, and should be allowed to play a flat, fast game based of the forwards winning the battle up front. We should not be relying on our scrum-half for that battle. If we have to, we're goosed anyway.

ozymandias10 · 27-02-2012 4:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

so you'd move Ferris out of the position he's played all season,
followed by moving SOB out of the position he's played all season,
and also move POM out of the position he's played all season?

:baffling:

Heaslip and O brien aren't performing one needs to go..O Brien should be given a chance in his preferred position...when you say all season is this the two games we have played in the six nations...cause I am basing on current form..and specifically for this tournamnet ..the six nations....not baffling at all

But hey if you would rather continue with a non functioning back row that is your perogative

27-02-2012 4:39pm

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Heaslip and O brien aren't performing one needs to go..O Brien should be given a chance in his preferred position...when you say all season is this the two games we have played in the six nations...cause I am basing on current form..and specifically for this tournamnet ..the six nations....not baffling at all

But hey if you would rather continue with a non functioning back row that is your perogative

i think non functioning is a bit harsh i think there playing pretty well

Connor Murray - Kidney's new TOL?

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